Sinar

[mcfoto]

With F&H problems & the Hy6, will Sinar digital backs survive? Thierry is gone & you could not get a better company man. He put up 2500 posts in a liitle over 2 years, he was even posting on his week ends!
Denis

[Leonardo Barreto]

Why is everyone so pessimistic in this forum talking about the death of Medium Format, and now this. Yes, Bronica died... and Contax, Pentax. If Hy6 is not somehow revived by someone -maybe Kodak-Leaf, or Leaf America or Kiev-- then it could be bad for them in several levels. The market is being attacked by Nikon that is already joined forces with Canon to go after the big money of Medium Format.

I think that the best way for SINAR would be to buy CONTAX. After all that was a company that used the best of Japanese camera workmanship with the best of European optics. Why is it that after so long being discontinued so many photographers are working with them. Have you seen the platform poll? Amazing.

The other platform that SINAR could be doing is a light weight MF rangefinder camera for the landscape photographers, with non-retro focus lenses... something like an Alpa and a Leica...

The truth is that I hope MF and SINAR will survive and that there is a place for the Nikons and another for bigger things...

With F&H problems & the Hy6, will Sinar digital backs survive? Thierry is gone & you could not get a better company man. He put up 2500 posts in a liitle over 2 years, he was even posting on his week ends!
Denis

[Smallcooter]

...

I think that the best way for SINAR would be to buy CONTAX...

And with a commensurate SINAR price-tag, no thank you.

[David Anderson]

This great recession were now in is going to sort a lot of this stuff out IMHO -

With both finance and fee's getting tight, how are photographers going to justify the extra spend over something like the 5DII for a camera system and back that the clients might not want to pay any extra for ?

From where I stand, fee's are coming down while the price of gear is going up and I don't know about the rest of you, but I will be very careful for the moment on how much money I invest in my business till there's clear signs of a recovery in the market..

[Smallcooter]

This great recession were now in is going to sort a lot of this stuff out IMHO -

With both finance and fee's getting tight, how are photographers going to justify the extra spend over something like the 5DII for a camera system and back that the clients might not want to pay any extra for ?

From where I stand, fee's are coming down while the price of gear is going up and I don't know about the rest of you, but I will be very careful for the moment on how much money I invest in my business till there's clear signs of a recovery in the market..

That's the reality but many who shill expensive systems tell you that you have 'bad business practice' and are not billing digital capture fees and what-nots to your clients. Would that it were as simple as that...

[Graham Mitchell]

With F&H problems & the Hy6, will Sinar digital backs survive? Thierry is gone & you could not get a better company man. He put up 2500 posts in a liitle over 2 years, he was even posting on his week ends!
Denis

Sinar and the Hy6 are both owned by Jenoptik - a huge company which can absorb a few bad years if it so chooses. They have invested enough in this project that it makes sense for them to weather the storm and get a return on the investment when the market improves. I'm not that concerned. Mamiya is probably the most vulnerable player at the moment, not having a large parent company. Hasselblad is somewhere in the middle, afaik.

[Leonardo Barreto]

I agree, There seams to be a lot of work going in to the AFi, with the rotating sensor --and finally good black colors--.  But the problem with SINAR, in my opinion, is that they seam to have too much money -as you say, they are part of Jenoptik, a huge company- and the seam not to know what is needed.

For example Sinar M. I don't want to make the mistake of talking about something that I have not research well, so I will just say that a dealer in one of the major back distributors said to me that this camera was not being desired by photographers at all. This was about 2 1/2 years ago. How much money went in to this system? Other smaller companies that need to stay focus to survive would have killed in the pre planing stages.

Sinar and the Hy6 are both owned by Jenoptik - a huge company which can absorb a few bad years if it so chooses. They have invested enough in this project that it makes sense for them to weather the storm and get a return on the investment when the market improves. I'm not that concerned. Mamiya is probably the most vulnerable player at the moment, not having a large parent company. Hasselblad is somewhere in the middle, afaik.

[rainer_v]

I agree, There seams to be a lot of work going in to the AFi, with the rotating sensor --and finally good black colors--.  But the problem with SINAR, in my opinion, is that they seam to have too much money -as you say, they are part of Jenoptik, a huge company- and the seam not to know what is needed.

For example Sinar M. I don't want to make the mistake of talking about something that I have not research well, so I will just say that a dealer in one of the major back distributors said to me that this camera was not being desired by photographers at all. This was about 2 1/2 years ago. How much money went in to this system? Other smaller companies that need to stay focus to survive would have killed in the pre planing stages.

as far i know many electronic parts have been taken over from the sinar-m to the HY, it seems that this camera was a kind of technology carrier.
as you can see its still in the program, in 2008 appeared a new small battery and the 28HR adapted to it, which makes this camera to an excellent carry around tool with the best available 28mm lens on it.

i am little bit tired of all this speculations, about great new leicas and nikons and the beakdown of sinar and/or leaf and or mamiya and so on.
for me these companies seem to be alive but the new leicas and nikons dont exist yet..  
so what will be in one or two years, we`ll see than,- these rumors arent helping no one.

btw. i just received the news that several accessories for the arTec are going to be ready soon.
it does not sound to me as if sinar is sleeping ....

[Leonardo Barreto]

Reiner, I feel the same way, on one side I see the developments and want to extrapolate to see what the future of this fast changing industry will bring, but get entangled in the other aspect of the discussion that can be described faster with the analogy of Mac versus PC or Nikon versus Canon. I remember when I was in school and we where in a bus and saw another one, from the same school, pass us by. We would shout soft insults to the other kids because the happened to be on a different vehicle and that made them adversaries.

I think that if one company is not doing well we all lose. On the other side I enjoy reading opinions --for example the one that you just posted about the SINAR M -- and writing mine about this systems. But if we only could do this objectively and realizing that there is a lot of trial and error going on here. Errors are not bad, they are part of the development process, so saying that this an error and that is not should be ok. I think.

as far i know many electronic parts have been taken over from the sinar-m to the HY, it seems that this camera was a kind of technology carrier.
as you can see its still in the program, in 2008 appeared a new small battery and the 28HR adapted to it, which makes this camera to an excellent carry around tool with the best available 28mm lens on it.

i am little bit tired of all this speculations, about great new leicas and nikons and the beakdown of sinar and/or leaf and or mamiya and so on.
for me these companies seem to be alive but the new leicas and nikons dont exist yet..  
so what will be in one or two years, we`ll see than,- these rumors arent helping no one.

btw. i just received the news that several accessories for the arTec are going to be ready soon.
it does not sound to me as if sinar is sleeping ....

[Nicolas Flamel]

Hello there!

The Hy6 is manufactured by Rollei, not Sinar. They will have to save Franke & Heidecke. Rollei could be split into pieces and the part which is doing the Afi and Hy6 yould go on.

  In my opinion there will be enough place for several brands. Hasselblad only takes it´s advantage from their agressive prive dumping. I heard that the H-Series lensen are not too good and need loads of software based correcting afterwards.
Sinar had some administrative problems which should be solved. I am not sure that we do need a Artec or so. But if it sells... It perfectly fits into Sinar´s tradition for eccellent workmanship.
I am just testing a P3 with CMV lenses and multishot with my Evolution and I have to say the results are amazing!
Sinar is the only manufacturer who offers a clear and really usable live view with the LC-Shutter (love that one)

If Sinar manages to communicate the advantages of their products to the consumers they could have a great future.


Cheers

Nico

[David Grover / Capture One]

Hello there!

Hasselblad only takes it´s advantage from their agressive prive dumping. I heard that the H-Series lensen are not too good and need loads of software based correcting afterwards.

Nicolas,

Thats a really ancient argument which is spread mainly by the competition.  Search the forums and there is many a sample of exceptional lens performance on the H system.

You will find users of H2D - H3D systems have no complaints about performance.

Best,


David

[hubell]

Hello there!
 I heard that the H-Series lensen are not too good and need loads of software based correcting afterwards.
Cheers

Nico

Keep up the good research and don't hesitate to share it.

[Dustbak]

I use virtually every H lens let me say that with software correction they are very good. Sharp, extremely well controlled distortion and no CA or vignetting (if you so desire). Without the correction they are still very sharp but have a bit more distortion, CA & vignetting but still very little. Even less than many other lenses. Please use stuff first before you think you can make a statement about it.

My HC lenses are only bettered by my Schneider Digitars. My ZF lenses might be sharper but show more distortion as well as CA (not mentioning the smaller image circle). As David mentioned there are many users that are extremely content with their Hasselblad equipment.

Does this means everything is all rosy? Absolutely not, we are a highly aggressive demanding bunch and we will whip Hasselblad until they even further improve on everything, preferably for the lowest possible prices  There is a whole list of stuff we want them to work on...

[feppe]

Sinar and the Hy6 are both owned by Jenoptik - a huge company which can absorb a few bad years if it so chooses. They have invested enough in this project that it makes sense for them to weather the storm and get a return on the investment when the market improves. I'm not that concerned. Mamiya is probably the most vulnerable player at the moment, not having a large parent company. Hasselblad is somewhere in the middle, afaik.

Size is hardly a measure of how well a company is prepared for an unanticipated downturn. GM is a much bigger company than Jenoptik and is about to fold unless more tax payer money is pumped into it.

I don't know the stock or the company, but it has lost over 60% of its value in the past five years, while Canon has lost "only" 30% and Dow and S&P 500 have lost 40%. This is only one datapoint, of course.

[Leonardo Barreto]

I believed that Jenoptik owned the Hy6 design and that it was manufactured by Frank & Heidecke. So, Frank & Heidecke manufactures it for Rollei and Rollei sells it to Jenoptik? or is Rollei part of Frank & Heidecke. Is Rollei insolvent also?

Hello there!

The Hy6 is manufactured by Rollei, not Sinar. They will have to save Franke & Heidecke. Rollei could be split into pieces and the part which is doing the Afi and Hy6 yould go on.

  In my opinion there will be enough place for several brands. Hasselblad only takes it´s advantage from their agressive prive dumping. I heard that the H-Series lensen are not too good and need loads of software based correcting afterwards.
Sinar had some administrative problems which should be solved. I am not sure that we do need a Artec or so. But if it sells... It perfectly fits into Sinar´s tradition for eccellent workmanship.
I am just testing a P3 with CMV lenses and multishot with my Evolution and I have to say the results are amazing!
Sinar is the only manufacturer who offers a clear and really usable live view with the LC-Shutter (love that one)

If Sinar manages to communicate the advantages of their products to the consumers they could have a great future.


Cheers

Nico

[Graham Mitchell]

I believed that Jenoptik owned the Hy6 design and that it was manufactured by Frank & Heidecke. So, Frank & Heidecke manufactures it for Rollei and Rollei sells it to Jenoptik? or is Rollei part of Frank & Heidecke. Is Rollei insolvent also?

F&H is the company which manufactures the 6000 series cameras, the Hy6 and the TLR cameras. They make the Hy6 under contract for Jenoptik.

There is a separate Rollei GmbH company which seems to produce cheap point and shoots now, and has no relevance here. It was split from F&H in 2005.

[Leonardo Barreto]

Thank you Foto-Z, I thought that it was as you say, but, buy the way. Who manufactures the SINAR M system? could they take over the Hy6 in case of necessity?  Also, another question. Is the AFi a Jeniptik propietary design?  

F&H is the company which manufactures the 6000 series cameras, the Hy6 and the TLR cameras. They make the Hy6 under contract for Jenoptik.

There is a separate Rollei GmbH company which seems to produce cheap point and shoots now, and has no relevance here. It was split from F&H in 2005.

[mmurph]

Size is hardly a measure of how well a company is prepared for an unanticipated downturn.

Very true.

Profitabilty, profit margin, and capital requirements are the internal measures that are being looked at in all companies.

EVERYTHING is at risk right now.  Unless you are an absolute insider, there is little basis to guess who will or will not survive.  

Business strategies change, industries are abandonded, etc.  During times of stress even a 200% annual return on invesment - ROI or IRR - can be inadequate!

Only time will tell.  And it all depends on how bad it gets, globally, for how long.  In the US it is officially the worst recession since WWII.  And the last couple of months saw it accelerating.  A great learning opportunity!    

[Graham Mitchell]

Also, another question. Is the AFi a Jeniptik propietary design?

The AFi is just a Hy6 supplied to Leaf with a different logo, and different firmware installed (afaik), so it is still a Jenoptik design.

Who knows why they made things confusing with different names. I wish they hadn't.

[BJNY]

F&H manufactured the Sinar M.

I, too, dismissed it for the longest while until recently
when Pham Son and David Klepacki opened my eyes to its possibilities as an electronic shutter.