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Author Topic: MF - how long to live ?  (Read 9241 times)

eronald

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MF - how long to live ?
« on: March 10, 2009, 04:51:00 pm »

I printed a full-body outdoors portrait today from my D3x.

A very good poster 44" print from a *crop* of a Jpeg @ 1600 ISO.

Zero processing. Just retouched a few pimples.

Every dSLR will be able to do this in two years.

The D700x will be able to do this for $2K in 3 months.

This is ridiculous. I wouldn't buy shares in any MF manufacturer.

Edmund
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 04:52:43 pm by eronald »
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Graham Mitchell

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MF - how long to live ?
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2009, 05:06:44 pm »

It seems that all you do lately is post about your Nikon. This is a MF forum!
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Wayne Fox

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« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2009, 05:08:57 pm »

Quote from: eronald
I printed a full-body outdoors portrait today from my D3x.

A very good poster 44" print from a *crop* of a Jpeg @ 1600 ISO.

Zero processing. Just retouched a few pimples.

Every dSLR will be able to do this in two years.

The D700x will be able to do this for $2K in 3 months.

This is ridiculous. I wouldn't buy shares in any MF manufacturer.

Edmund

Most portraiture never has pushed the envelope on detail with digital capture.  I've always been able to go larger when printing portraits from my cameras than if printing my other types of images - back to the days of the Kodak 560.

I quit using my P45/Hasselblad for portraiture when I bought the 1DsMark3.  But i rarely use my 1DsMark3 for landscape work ... the difference can get pretty apparent when printing large prints.

Interesting you think it is dead ... the p65 is backordered months out (one of which is mine).  I think there will always be a niche for MF.  the 1DsMk3 was a big jump, and perhaps the D3x is marginally better, but there are circumstances where neither will perform anywhere close to a good MF system.  Perhaps you don't do that kind of work or make prints which are that large, but some of us do.
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eronald

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« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2009, 05:21:04 pm »

Quote from: Wayne Fox
Most portraiture never has pushed the envelope on detail with digital capture.  I've always been able to go larger when printing portraits from my cameras than if printing my other types of images - back to the days of the Kodak 560.

I quit using my P45/Hasselblad for portraiture when I bought the 1DsMark3.  But i rarely use my 1DsMark3 for landscape work ... the difference can get pretty apparent when printing large prints.

Interesting you think it is dead ... the p65 is backordered months out (one of which is mine).  I think there will always be a niche for MF.  the 1DsMk3 was a big jump, and perhaps the D3x is marginally better, but there are circumstances where neither will perform anywhere close to a good MF system.  Perhaps you don't do that kind of work or make prints which are that large, but some of us do.

I'm not saying MF is dead; what I'm saying is that it's getting punished pretty badly. One of the strange novelties is the resurgence of Jpeg. I couldn't have done this with my 1DsII, the in-camera processing wasn't good enough. One thing is sure: Nailing the image during the shot makes one feel much better when viewing it

Edmund


Edmund
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 05:22:29 pm by eronald »
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ThierryH

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MF - how long to live ?
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2009, 07:12:11 pm »

No, but you are saying "How long to live?"
 

Thierry

Quote from: eronald
I'm not saying MF is dead

Edmund
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michael

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« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2009, 08:03:27 pm »

Go shoot with a P65+ then tell me what you think.  

Michael
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 10:46:51 pm by michael »
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eronald

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« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2009, 08:10:21 pm »

Quote from: michael
Go shoot weith a P65+ then tell me what you think.  

Michael

Sure. I'll lend you my D3x for a couple of days, you lend me the P65. I'll even pay my airfare to where you live.

Deal ?

Edmund
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Leonardo Barreto

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« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2009, 09:22:54 pm »

eronald

What is the sharpest f.:stop before diffraction begins to degrade the image? f. 6 ?  

ps. is someone going to do a SHOOTOUT with this two cameras? just tell me which corral and when. :-)

Quote from: eronald
Sure. I'll lend you my D3x for a couple of days, you lend me the P65. I'll even pay my airfare to where you live.

Deal ?

Edmund
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 09:26:05 pm by Leonardo Barreto »
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amsp

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« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2009, 09:46:36 pm »

Here we go again.. *sigh*

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JDBFreeheel

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« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2009, 09:52:54 pm »

The flaw in the logic is that somehow Medium Format Digital companies will cease their development, lie down, and cease moving forward while 'other' 35mm digital companies (Nikon, Canon, Sony, etc) will continue at a wicked pace.

Technology will continue to move forward as it has...forever.  In two years there will probably be 35mm-equivalent digital cameras that can produce incredible images (compared to today).  And there will probably be bigger sensors (medium format or larger) that produce ever more incredible images than those And then there will be all the other newer formats, cross-platforms (Red, etc).

Amazing, this thing called progress...yawn. To assume that it only applies to Nikon is a little bold, don't you think?

I'm curious however, how do you detach the digital sensor from that new-fangled D3x and attach it to your Horseman?  I just wish Nikon knew how to innovate.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 10:02:01 pm by JDBFreeheel »
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michael

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« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2009, 10:46:07 pm »

Quote from: eronald
Sure. I'll lend you my D3x for a couple of days, you lend me the P65. I'll even pay my airfare to where you live.

Deal ?

Edmund
Deal. I live in Toronto. May would be good.

Michael

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shutay

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« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2009, 11:23:33 pm »

Competition is good. Makes you wake up and pay attention and reevaluate priorities. A lot of people have been writing for a long time of many things they wanted to see in future digital backs
  • larger, better displays all around;
  • maybe CMOS sensors with in-LCD live view without having to tether...
  • greater dynamic range
  • dual CF slot with more flexible storage options, like on the D3X
  • better prices
  • more AF points with wider spacing in the viewfinder (ok, this is a camera enhancement)

And I'm sure there are many others who can think of many more things they'd like to see in their digital backs. I foresee a further consolidation in the medium format players maybe but I feel the market will continue. There are many who prefer it for one reason or another. Cameras like the D3X should make them accelerate the pace.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 11:30:55 pm by shutay »
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Ray

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« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2009, 11:28:37 pm »

It has always seemed to me that MFDB users pay a huge premium for a relatively marginal increase in image quality, compared with 35mm FF format. What's even worse is that such increased image quality, more often than not, seems to get lost in the image processing chain from RAW image to magaine cover.

I accept that those who are printing from 3ft and 4ft wide printers will very much appreciate the extra detail that's obtainable from a single P65 shot. However, I wonder how often a single shot is mandatory to achieve the desired result.

I find it interesting that there's a 'botton up' movement currently taking place in camera development. Some of the latest P&S releases, such as the Ricoh CX1 and Fuji F200EXR, have very remarkable features to improve DR and SNR. If DSLRs were to adopt such technology, it might be game, set and match for the MFDB.
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Wayne Fox

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« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2009, 02:57:12 am »

Quote from: Ray
It has always seemed to me that MFDB users pay a huge premium for a relatively marginal increase in image quality, compared with 35mm FF format. What's even worse is that such increased image quality, more often than not, seems to get lost in the image processing chain from RAW image to magaine cover.

Not sure what your experience is, but MFDB is not "marginally" better.  Sure the D3x and 5DMk2 have made significant gains but they still don't equal the previous generation MF 39mp backs.  Of course, the new MFDB's in the 59mp range even more capable when capturing detail, and MFDB have other advantages (no AA filter).

Quote from: Ray
I accept that those who are printing from 3ft and 4ft wide printers will very much appreciate the extra detail that's obtainable from a single P65 shot. However, I wonder how often a single shot is mandatory to achieve the desired result.

I guess you mean why not just stitch multiple images?  Sure that works some of the time, but it's a pain, and personally I'd rather spend my time shooting various images, including bracketing for possible HDR, than spend 10 minutes to capture the detail and then have to stitch it together.  If you can't afford MFDB or don't have it with you, it's a good technique for some subject matter, but it can't replace it all of the time.  Heck, I stitch P45+ captures fairly often.

Quote from: Ray
I find it interesting that there's a 'botton up' movement currently taking place in camera development. Some of the latest P&S releases, such as the Ricoh CX1 and Fuji F200EXR, have very remarkable features to improve DR and SNR. If DSLRs were to adopt such technology, it might be game, set and match for the MFDB.

Perhaps the real motivation lies elsewhere.  The manufacturers require constant improvement to drive sales.  Develop a G10 so all those with G9's want to upgrade ... but the new camera has to have something about it which makes it better.  At this point, it is getting pretty tough to cram more pixels into the very small sensors and it's pretty obvious those buying those cameras aren't primarily interested in 40x60" prints.  But they still have to improve the camera, so they are adding more features (video seems to be the newest focus)  and improved image quality with the pixels they have.

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BernardLanguillier

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« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2009, 03:30:19 am »

Quote from: michael
Deal. I live in Toronto. May would be good.

Michael

Wow, can I play too?

Cheers,
Bernard

BernardLanguillier

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« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2009, 03:40:57 am »

Quote from: JDBFreeheel
The flaw in the logic is that somehow Medium Format Digital companies will cease their development, lie down, and cease moving forward while 'other' 35mm digital companies (Nikon, Canon, Sony, etc) will continue at a wicked pace.

No intend to run down MF, but what drives the pace of progress is investements, and the ability to invest is proportional to the money you make...

The gap between an A900/5DII and a P65+ on an A2 print is much smaller than the gap 5 years ago between a 1ds and P25. Much smaller.

Yet the price gap has actually increase significantly, going from 3 fold to 13 fold, from 17.000 US$ to 36.000 US$...

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: March 11, 2009, 03:46:29 am by BernardLanguillier »
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phila

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« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2009, 03:49:57 am »

"It has always seemed to me that MFDB users pay a huge premium for a relatively marginal increase in image quality, compared with 35mm FF format. What's even worse is that such increased image quality, more often than not, seems to get lost in the image processing chain from RAW image to magaine cover."

Quote from: Wayne Fox
Not sure what your experience is, but MFDB is not "marginally" better.  Sure the D3x and 5DMk2 have made significant gains but they still don't equal the previous generation MF 39mp backs.  Of course, the new MFDB's in the 59mp range even more capable when capturing detail, and MFDB have other advantages (no AA filter).

I'm with Ray on this one. By the time the 'same' image hits the page/cover via a four colour press it makes no difference if it was shot on 35FF or MF. Again, as Ray said, a different kettle of fish if the image is being output to a seriously wide format printer.

eronald

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« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2009, 04:17:23 am »

Quote from: michael
Deal. I live in Toronto. May would be good.

Michael

Ok, I think I can do May. I'll get in touch for dates.

Edmund
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rainer_v

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« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2009, 05:14:38 am »

Quote from: BernardLanguillier
No intend to run down MF, but what drives the pace of progress is investements, and the ability to invest is proportional to the money you make...

The gap between an A900/5DII and a P65+ on an A2 print is much smaller than the gap 5 years ago between a 1ds and P25. Much smaller.

Yet the price gap has actually increase significantly, going from 3 fold to 13 fold, from 17.000 US$ to 36.000 US$...

Cheers,
Bernard
i seriously doubt this. ( btw. at the time of the 1ds existed the kodak slr, which gave you similar quality as the leica r9 3 years later  )
how big is the difference today depends on the print size and much on the lenses you use in front of your back.
no 35mm lens comes close to the wideangles rodenstock and schneider are making. this was the biggest problem of 35mm ff systems in the past and still it is.
its not all about the sensors ....
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Ray

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« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2009, 06:54:50 am »

Quote from: Wayne Fox
Not sure what your experience is, but MFDB is not "marginally" better.  Sure the D3x and 5DMk2 have made significant gains but they still don't equal the previous generation MF 39mp backs.  Of course, the new MFDB's in the 59mp range even more capable when capturing detail, and MFDB have other advantages (no AA filter).

There's no doubt that the larger sensor can accommodate a greater number of pixels. However, if you can get the quality that you need from a more compact, lighter and more affordable box, then what's the point?

What I had in mind for a DSLR of the future, is a full frame 35mm sensor with the pixel density of the 50D and the internal processing of the Ricoh CX1. That would make it a 39mp FF sensor with the ability to bracket two different exposures and process them in-camera to produce a DR of about 15 stops (the Ricoh CX1 claims 12 stops).

For those concerned about their lenses not being sharp enough at F8 for a 39mp 35mm format, the camera would also be able to autobracket focussing distance when the lens is used at its sharpest aperture (say F5.6) to produce a DoF normally only possible at F32, but razor sharp.

How does that grab you?  

Here's the dpreview link to the Ricoh CX1 http://www.dpreview.com/news/0902/09022002ricohinterview.asp
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