More Details on the Leica S2

[eronald]

Yes, everybody know that even for $2700 the 5D2 is not The Ultimate Camera. Question is, are you willing to buy an $8000 D3x instead? (apparently not many people are) How about a $30,000 S2 instead??

Question is why everyone on this forum isn't already buying a 5DII. It costs less than most MF lenses

Edmund

[mcfoto]

Hi
When it comes to the 5D I owned one & now have replaced it with the 5DII. I was talking to a CPS person @ Canon & we got talking about the sales world wide. The 5D sold about 300,000 units while the 1DsIII is expected to do 25,000 units. If the S2 comes in @ 15-25 K (USD), I don't think they will sell that many. The MFD market ( Hasselblad, Mamiya/Phase, Sinar ) sells about 6000 units all up each year. No surprise about F&H. also with MFD backs coming up used & demos @ great prices, I think the S2 will have a small market. I just got an email from Leaf USA selling off demo backs at great prices. For example a 54S ( 6669.00 ) & 75S ( 12229 ) very fast backs with either a M, H or universal mount. Last year a good friend of mine bought a used Aptus 22 for his Mamiya  for $9900.00 on eBay, the 54S is the same back except it captures at .90 f/s.
Denis

[lisa_r]

Question is why everyone on this forum isn't already buying a 5DII. It costs less than most MF lenses

Edmund

Most of them probably already have ;-)

[James R Russell]

What I think is funny is that everyone is talking about the D3x being the pinnacle, but apparently (according to my NY dealers) no one is buying it! Great camera, lusty feature set, flexible, MF-like shadow noise, billions of lenses in rental, and hardly any takers at $8K. What does this say about your S2 launch this year? (at 3-4 (?) times the price for the system and nothing in rental...)

According to these pro dealers (fotocare, calumet, etc., etc.) everyone is buying the 5D2. They can not keep them in stock.

Even if business is still pretty good, the financial news just throws you off new purchases, other than the obvious ones like self promotion.

I'd like to get the D3x and last year would have done so without giving it much thought, but now everyone pauses for a moment.

After all I am sure most photographers in the D3x range already have a Canon 1ds2, or 3 and you think, well might wait just a little while longer.  

Then there is the thought that Nikon will probably introduce a D700x or something like that for 1/2 the price and waiting becomes easier.

I did buy a 5d2, for video and took it out of the box once found out you couldn't manually set the controls without adding a set of zeiss lenses and put it back in the box, ready for return.

Now if Nikon had made the D3x with real functioning hi def video, automatic sensor cleaning I would have bought it straight away as the samples I have seen are impressive.

[billthecat]

I got a 5D2. I just use a little tape on the lens contacts to set fix the f stop. It would be trouble if you like to keep changing the f stop. I've been very happy with the video feature though Canon really should add more control.

Bill

[lisa_r]

and put it back in the box, ready for return.

Now if Nikon had made the D3x with real functioning hi def video, automatic sensor cleaning I would have bought it straight away as the samples I have seen are impressive.

Exactly, the bar has been raised: for their $2700, people want nothing less than what the Canon has got: 1080p and 22mp (plus sensor cleaning, etc., etc.) Now, what will they want for a $30K DSLR?

[georgl]

@foto-z

The question is: in which IQ will the smaller sensor + the excellent S-lenses with their MTFs result?

I think the answer can be found in IQ of technical cameras with the specialized Digitar & HR-lenses, it's not really absolute resolution but contrast and "clarity" due to the lack of optical aberrations ("micro-contrast", "3D-look"...). Comparing good lenses like your Rollei or todays Mamiya/Fuji-lenses will of course not result in horrible soft images like with 35mm-plastic-zooms...
My Zeiss 80mm was of course also usable with f2.8, but outside the center it got more crisp and clearer when stopping down, an effect that will most likely be very similar to the practical results of the performance of the S-lenses.
Here is a corner-crop of my M8 + Summilux 35 Asph f1.4 vs. f2.8 - that's about the difference in contrast the MTFs show between the S-lenses and "normal" SLR-MF-lenses.

[pss]

I'd like to get the D3x and last year would have done so without giving it much thought, but now everyone pauses for a moment.

After all I am sure most photographers in the D3x range already have a Canon 1ds2, or 3 and you think, well might wait just a little while longer.  

Then there is the thought that Nikon will probably introduce a D700x or something like that for 1/2 the price and waiting becomes easier.

Now if Nikon had made the D3x with real functioning hi def video, automatic sensor cleaning I would have bought it straight away as the samples I have seen are impressive.

my thoughts exactly....if it wasn't for everything said above i would own a dx3 right now.....but it wasn't available when i bought the dsIII and the video of the 5DII was way too much fun to turn down....especially for the price....and since prices are high on the list these days.....the S2 will remain on my wishlist of objects or funtools.....

i still believe the dsIV will be very similar to the S2, a larger sensor with new lenses....coming late this year...and nikon won't be far behind, but too far for me, i will already own the canon....again....

[Nemo]

I don't agree. All but one of my lenses are sharp wide open.

Yes but, look at these MTF graphs:

http://www.s.leica-camera.com/leica-s-system

LEICA SUMMARIT-S 35 mm F/2.5 ASPH. CS:
http://www.s.leica-camera.com/summarit-s-1...-35-mm-asph-cs/

LEICA SUMMARIT-S 70 mm F/2.5 ASPH. CS:
http://www.s.leica-camera.com/summarit-s-1...-70-mm-asph-cs/

LEICA APO-MACRO-SUMMARIT-S 120 mm F/2.5 CS:
http://www.s.leica-camera.com/apo-macro-su...-2-5-120-mm-cs/

LEICA APO-ELMAR-S 180 mm F/3.5 CS :
http://www.s.leica-camera.com/apo-elmar-s-1-3-5-180-mm-cs/

Those lenses aren't "sharp" in a common sense. They are just outstanding, even for smaller format lenses!

[Nemo]

@foto-z

The question is: in which IQ will the smaller sensor + the excellent S-lenses with their MTFs result?

I think the answer can be found in IQ of technical cameras with the specialized Digitar & HR-lenses, it's not really absolute resolution but contrast and "clarity" due to the lack of optical aberrations ("micro-contrast", "3D-look"...). Comparing good lenses like your Rollei or todays Mamiya/Fuji-lenses will of course not result in horrible soft images like with 35mm-plastic-zooms...
My Zeiss 80mm was of course also usable with f2.8, but outside the center it got more crisp and clearer when stopping down, an effect that will most likely be very similar to the practical results of the performance of the S-lenses.
Here is a corner-crop of my M8 + Summilux 35 Asph f1.4 vs. f2.8 - that's about the difference in contrast the MTFs show between the S-lenses and "normal" SLR-MF-lenses.

It is very difficult to preserve contrast and resolution from the axis to the corners when the format is large. Leica did it for the new S lenses. You can see 40 lp/mm MTF higher than 70% in a 28mm equivalent (35mm format) lens (35mm Summarit) WIDE OPEN!



Remember the format is much bigger than 24x36mm.

The standard 70mm is very uniform, from center to corners...



The APO 120mm lens is just unbelievable, wide open!



... and the same goes for the APO 180mm... 85% contrast for 40lp/mm on axis, wide open!



Put those lenses on perspective...

[dalethorn]

@foto-z
.....
Here is a corner-crop of my M8 + Summilux 35 Asph f1.4 vs. f2.8 - that's about the difference in contrast the MTFs show between the S-lenses and "normal" SLR-MF-lenses.

That's a pretty big difference. Hard to believe there's no exposure factor here.

[georgl]

It's a horrible picture and they're not even perfectly sharp - it's just about the difference of these two, especially regarding contrast.
Without seeing the f2.8 you wouldn't notice the contrast loss as easy, especially not when fine-tuning it in post. These lenses are hq, they don't become mushy or produce horrible abberations like "plastic-35mm-lenses" (this image was made on a tour with a friend and a 500€ f1.4 Sigma, it didn't reach the f1.4-Leica-quality at f5.6) mentioned, a similar behaviour to the expensive MF-lenses a few stops slower.

Just because they don't look horrible, doesn't mean that the outresolve the sensor or better lenses couldn't produce superior results, users of technical lenses noticed that (even without tine 6micron-photosites). It will also affect the overall quality of S2-files, it not just about MPs - we'll see

As far as I know, they just finishing the first pre-production-S2s (a German magazine already announced an "extensive test" in April) - until now we've just seen the very first prototypes from September (2 of them were not disassembled and shown on the following shows).

[Professional]

I will buy 5D II if i don't have 1Ds MarkIII.

[Nemo]

As far as I know, they just finishing the first pre-production-S2s (a German magazine already announced an "extensive test" in April) - until now we've just seen the very first prototypes from September (2 of them were not disassembled and shown on the following shows).

Yes, I think they have finished the pre-production units, and now they are testing, refining and arranging final serial production.

R.

[Nemo]

Preliminary observations of Michael Reichmann:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/...as/s2-pre.shtml

.

[Nemo]

Michael Reichmann asks for Leica lenses for Mamiya mount:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/...as/s2-pre.shtml

Memo to Leica: How about making these lenses in Mamiya / Phase One mount? This will open up a huge additional market for your lenses and likely won't impact your S2 body sales in any significant way. I write this out of pure selfishness, because I'd really love to use your lenses, but like many photographers already have a camera investment (or two) that might get in the way. Anyhow, buying great new lenses is a photographers sacred duty, isn't it?

... but Joe Holmes explains shy this is undesirable for Leica:

http://www.josephholmes.com/news-medformatprecision.html

http://www.josephholmes.com/news-sharpmediumformat.html

An integrated body produced by the same manufacturer who makes the lenses is the best solution.

[Nick Rains]

Have patience. A firmware update is slated for sometime in April for the 5DII which, while not openly stated, will most likely add manual controls for video.

OT but where does this info come from? I have just published a formal quote from Canon Australia saying that this is not happening.

“Once in movie mode, the camera will control
everything, including shutter speeds, aperture and
ISO. Only exposure compensation is possible. When
shooting video, aperture control is not possible in order
to prevent the recording of aperture-related sounds.
Because of this, exposure control uses a wide range
of ISO and shutter speeds. The shutter speeds are also
controlled in such way as to provide natural-looking,
flicker-free movies. There is no firmware upgrade for
this as we do not believe it is an issue”.

Straight from the horses mouth as it were...

[BJNY]

OT but where does this info come from?

www.canonrumors.com

and

www.cinema5D.com

[Nick Rains]

Perhaps you already know and it is inconvenient for you: You can save the exposure values with the *-button and set in the menu the metering timer up to 30 minutes. The the camera doesn't change the settings during the take. But it is easy to forget to press the *-button.

Best,
Johannes

Yes you can 'lock' the exposure but you cannot choose the settings in the first place.

[doncody]

The Rollei lenses I have: 40mm f3.5, 80mm f2.8, 150mm f4, 180mm f2.8. The 80mm f2 is not sharp like the others.

Here's a 100% crop from the 80mm f2.8 lens wide open:

Graham,

I had the opportunity to handle the S2 at the Palm Springs Festival several weeks ago. The ergonomics are amazing - feels like a large 35.  I currently shoot an H2 with a Leaf 75.  The Leica rep said that they would be introducing leaf shutters almost immediately.

Time will tell, but it is beautifully made and feels great in the hand.  Like yourself though I need the leaf shutter

DC