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Author Topic: Digital versus Film  (Read 20481 times)

monai

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Digital versus Film
« on: July 22, 2005, 05:37:30 am »

I find the discussion film vs. digital quite useless, because as mr. Reichman says often one has to choose his equipment taking in mind the final goal:
"horse for corse". Therefore in order to produce a decent projection (what I like to do) the analog slide and a decent projector is, at least so far, better than any digital equipment (I've personal expereince in that).
As regard the resolution criteria, I'm afraid to see that mr.Reichman says something not exact when he accepts the pixels peeping discussion. In his last article about film vs. digital he says that you need at least 40 two micron
grains in order to achieve a sufficient tonal level, a statement to be proved, but also taking this limit you can see that the minimal cluster of grain has
12,65 micron of diameter. Now if you consider that the bayern pattern needs at least four pixels to produce a moirè free images, the result is almost the same.
What's the botton line? the limit is often given by the blur of the lens.
This means that the two are equal? not at all. I'm conviced that the digital has many advantages on the film (except for the projection quality) but the
final statement is that the two are simply DIFFERENT, one can enjoy both,
the real problem is to produce smart images, and is completely useless to continue the discussion.  
good light
Sergio
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boku

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Digital versus Film
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2005, 02:32:54 pm »

Quote
(although I confess I wondered what possessed Boku to be out there with 50 photographers in a bug-infested swamp in the first place   )
1) Chance to meet a few new friends (obviously, I need to set higher standards).
2) New location/situation that wasn't very well explained in advance.
3) I actually thought I would be one of the big bad guys with my wimply little 20D  ???
4) I wanted to learn how to do macro flash techniques better.*

*Funny - every time someone in that crowd tripped a Canon EOS flash, several others went off by mistake. I guess they were set to slave. This entire event was like a Seinfeld episode. That's when I decided to scoot. Idiots.
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Bob Kulon

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boku

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Digital versus Film
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2005, 06:20:57 pm »

OK, I'm stoked. I'm going out tomorrow morning at 5 AM to new, promising venue. If anyone approaches within 500 feet, they will regret it. Can forensics detect the imprint of a 300 f/4L on a forehead?
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Bob Kulon

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Magumi

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Digital versus Film
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2005, 12:11:23 pm »

I can understand why the man from the first post is worried and why he needs to advocate his film equipment. The onslaught of the digital is fierce; manufacturers use all their marketing tricks to push new products, while hordes of new digital enthusiast bash film as inferior technology, no longer suitable for anyone but benighted fools (dpreview again). What is even worse, prints from contemporary DSLR's can indeed look very good, if done well, no one can argue otherwise. A little insecurity about one's equipment choices, accompanied by the feeling of being pushed into replacing one's well tried workflow and habits quite suffice to provoke this urge to stand up and fight against the "intruders" who use this new technology, and for all the wrong reasons too.

My camera and lenses are rather inconspicuous, so I am never bothered by my fellow photographers, but I can see how annoying this can be. On the other hand, I reckon that photographs using digital equipment are sometimes too harsh when confronted by boasting analogue photogs, not being aware of the frustrations they undergo.

Personally, I am very glad for the existence of digital cameras, even though I only shoot on film. I believe that the general quality of photography has improved immensely with digital. I can see it on the example of my sister. Her photos taken with film P&S used to be terrible, but now when she is using a digital camera, she has suddenly begun thinking about composition and light, taking pictures that are incomparably better than in the past. I ascribe it to the large LCD on the back of the camera that she uses to compose and to the fact that now she deletes the bad pictures, learning in the process. Unfortunately she prints the pictures on office paper and has no means of archiving them, which means that in a couple of years she will have no record of those events she managed to capture. However, that is an issue for another thread altogether.
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George Reis

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Digital versus Film
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2005, 11:07:52 am »

I have a question. In Michael's article he states that grain is binary and that it is 2 microns in length. Can anyone point me to a technical reference about this? He gives no reference, and this is something that I don't recall reading in the past.

Thanks,

George
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boku

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Digital versus Film
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2005, 04:36:35 pm »

Michael's article reminded me of of my "outing" last Saturday. I gathered in a local nature preserve at 6 AM with a cadre of about 50 other local photo enthousiasts for a nature shoot. What completely stupid idea. Picture this: 50 man-persons tromping through a mosquito-infested swamp in 90 degree, 100% humidity weather in search of dragon flies at sunrise after storm. Most of them were there to show off their 1D2 or D2X booty and let the testosterone flow.

I took stock of the farse-like situation and headed back to strike out on my own in proven hot spots when I was stopped by a fella I met at another "event" last year.

He spent about 30-minutes trying to convince me that all those folks in the swamp were fools to think that their gear would ever match his trusty film Canon setup. (Fools yes, wrong reason.) He was adamant about prints from negatives (he doesn't shoot transparency) and basically just wouldn't let up. His claim to fame was : RESOLUTION. The man was caught in the past. Interestingly, I asked him if he ever read any of the arguments posited on the Web about the supposed RESOLUTION controvery. He has no computer and is computationally-illiterate. Guess that says it all.

What's even worse - he made me miss early light at my final destination. Bastard!
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Bob Kulon

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boku

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Digital versus Film
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2005, 10:06:21 pm »

Quote
Bob,

Speaking of photographers in groups, I think you'll like the following essay about this subject and the Bad Behavior it brings about.

http://www.naturephotographers.net/article...3/dw0303-1.html
I am so glad you gave me that link. It hit the nail on the head exactly.
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Bob Kulon

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boku

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Digital versus Film
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2005, 07:40:15 am »

Quote
Don't know what to make of it really. Just happened to read this page yesterday : http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/filmdig.htm

He does seem to make some valid points, especially looking at the sample photos (not charts, but autumn trees). I think it is quite a balanced article and goes along the lines of "yes film has more resolution but to a vast majority of people that should not make any difference".
Ken Rockwell has a history of views that are controversial. He also prefers JPEGs over RAW for professional work. I prefer to look elsewhere for information.

I am not debating anyone here. I am only observing the underlying drivers behind views that cling to the past (and having some fun recalling my hysterical "group outing").
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Bob Kulon

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jdemott

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Digital versus Film
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2005, 02:10:45 pm »

I was disappointed to see the Clumps and Chumps article.  Whatever the theoretical merits of the argument might be, the whole digital versus film discussion is essentially irrelevant--the photography world is going digital as fast as it can.  Kodak is closing more and more of its film production facilities.  Kodak's strategy to maintain demand for film is to give cameras to millions of Chinese who might be attracted by a cheap, reliable way to take photos.  Apparently, not even that is working.  

So what is the point of a digital versus film article? It's similar to writing an article asking whether Lance Armstrong has what it takes to be a decent bike rider.  The results are already in.

Better that Michael should get back to providing articles on how to see/shoot/process/print better photos.  Perhaps he could still work in a line about vortex shedding in some other context.

BTW, I enjoyed Boku's story and the link from etmpasadena (although I confess I wondered what possessed Boku to be out there with 50 photographers in a bug-infested swamp in the first place   )
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John DeMott

jdemott

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Digital versus Film
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2005, 05:10:47 pm »

Quote
It appears that you, like several others, either didn't read the whole artcile, or at least didn't get it.

                *                *                *

What the article was about was how uninformed comparisons and testing of technically complex subjects can lead to erronious conclusions.

Michael, actually I both read it and got it.  Out of courtesy, I refrained from mentioning that your article embodies some of the same fallacious reasoning that you criticize.  The fact that film grain is "about" 2 microns in size doesn't prove that it out-resolves digital, but your point that it might take 30 to 40 grains to represent a full tonal range doesn't disprove it either (nor is tonal range the same as resolution).  Instead, I gave you the benefit of the doubt and assumed you were trying to make a larger point that overall image quality is a complex subject.

But perhaps you either didn't read my post or didn't get it.  Too many of the recent articles on the Luminous Landscape deal with product reviews or technical minutiae.   Clumps and Chumps is no exception.  I really hope you'll be writing more about how to make better photos, which you do very well.  As I said, you could still work in a point about "vortex shedding."  

John DeMott
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John DeMott

boku

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Digital versus Film
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2005, 01:28:13 pm »

I think we all agree on one thing:

It is much better to put forth a position that states your preference for film/digital, than to condemn another's position who's choice differs from yours.

As we keep saying, this isn't about film versus digital, it's about preference.

As time marches on, this becomes more and more pointless to discuss. Film will never die, but it will become obscure. Film is the visual documentary medium of the 20th century.

The reason for my topic (in hindsight, poorly named) was to relay a humurous experience about the "chumps" side of Michael's essay.
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Bob Kulon

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duranash

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Digital versus Film
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2005, 06:51:36 pm »

I don't post very often but I enjoy reading a lot of the useful information found here.  I found much useful info on this thread.  Based on a careful reading of this thread I have concluded:  Michael is absolutely correct!----and so is boku, Richowens, Jonathan Wienke, and all the other posters.  So there are some slight differences of opinion and they have been voiced.  I would suggest it might be best not get too carried away with ourselves lest this forum deteriorate to the level of many others.
Realize that I say this respectfully and with a smile too
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Richowens

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Digital versus Film
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2005, 02:25:09 am »

I love it, Eric!

Camera gear-$9,000

Dead batteries-priceless! :laugh:

Rich
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philthygeezer

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Digital versus Film
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2005, 12:09:29 pm »

I want a good full-frame 16 or 20 MP EOS3 equivalent that doesn't look like pro gear, as I would like people to not notice me/bug me/rob me.

I don't care what people shoot, as long as it's in line with their vision.  Asking if film or digital is better is like asking whether an acoustic or electric guitar is better.

"Shut up and shoot." - sounds good to me.  :D
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dferrier

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Digital versus Film
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2005, 12:05:52 am »

Quote
I just wanted to clarify that Ken Rockwell is a bonehead most of the time.  I mean, he's a nice guy - I've emailed him a few times and have gotten nice replies, but I find his site pretty useless, and his "jpeg looks better than RAW" article is pretty outrageous, and then there's his obsession with a max flash sync of 1/500th on the D70, even though the D70 doesn't even have an ISO 100, etc.  Oh, and lets not forget how most of his "reviews" aren't reviews at all.  Just facts from what he's read from technical specs, and he concludes his reviews of Canon cameras with "I'm sure it works great."  Thanks for the advice Ken!

T-1000
Yep, he certainly does shoot from the hip most of the time. There are a few things on his site that are good, but what you say is certainly true. About the way he "reviews" some cameras.
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RobertJ

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Digital versus Film
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2005, 11:40:04 pm »

I just wanted to clarify that Ken Rockwell is a bonehead most of the time.  I mean, he's a nice guy - I've emailed him a few times and have gotten nice replies, but I find his site pretty useless, and his "jpeg looks better than RAW" article is pretty outrageous, and then there's his obsession with a max flash sync of 1/500th on the D70, even though the D70 doesn't even have an ISO 100, etc.  Oh, and lets not forget how most of his "reviews" aren't reviews at all.  Just facts from what he's read from technical specs, and he concludes his reviews of Canon cameras with "I'm sure it works great."  Thanks for the advice Ken!

T-1000
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Quentin

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Digital versus Film
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2005, 04:58:25 pm »

Vortex shedding, vortex shedding, vortex shedding....

Got to let that one loose on dpreview sometime     It all sounds very plausible to me.

Quentin
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BernardLanguillier

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Digital versus Film
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2005, 11:31:49 pm »

Quote
Bob,

Speaking of photographers in groups, I think you'll like the following essay about this subject and the Bad Behavior it brings about.

http://www.naturephotographers.net/article...3/dw0303-1.html
Right on!

Cheers,
Bernard

Paul Sumi

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Digital versus Film
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2005, 01:42:51 pm »

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Most of them were there to show off their 1D2 or D2X booty and let the testosterone flow.
Bob, this rings unfortunately true.  I was shooting the Lotus blossoms at Echo Park lake in downtown Los Angeles.  A group of photographers showed up, including one gent with a fancy telephoto rig.

He proceeded to strut (ed note: taking artistic license) around the Lotus patch, gear prominently displayed. I'm not sure he took a single frame.  He left way before the rest of his group and it was NOT due to a lack of subject matter and good light.
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Digital versus Film
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2005, 04:10:57 pm »

jdemott...

It appears that you, like several others, either didn't read the whole artcile, or at least didn't get it.

It had little to nothing to do with the film vs digital debate – which I agree is old hat, and not worth much additional discussion.

What the article was about was how uninformed comparisons and testing of technically complex subjects can lead to erronious conclusions.

Winston Churchill once wrote that to be well understood one should...

Tell them what you're going to tell them.

Tell them.

Tell them what you told them.

I guess I didn't do a good enough job with that article if you think it was about the subject of film vs digital, which I essentially put aside in the first sentance.

Sorry.

Michael
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