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Author Topic: Sony F828  (Read 5915 times)

Graham Welland

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« on: March 05, 2005, 11:05:16 am »

What you are running into is one of both the strengths and weaknesses of the small sensor digital cameras - for P&S stuff the large DOF is an advantage, for creative limited DOF work it's a problem since even at f/2.8 or f/2.0 you've still got a very wide DOF.

My only recommendation is to perhaps look at using Photoshop to take your images and produce a layered foreground/subject/background apparent DOF blur. There are plenty of tutorials out the on how to do this but obviously it isn't quite as satisfying as producing it in camera with bokeh etc. That said, you can produce excellent creative images this way.

The only other thing I can suggest involves $$ and moving to a DSLR ...
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Graham

howard smith

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« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2005, 02:37:52 pm »

"DOF / depth of field refers to the range of distances from the film/sensor plane in which objects appear acceptably 'in focus'."  This is just plain wrong!

In his article "Understanding Depth of Field," Michael Reichman defined depth of field as "[t]he ... the range in a photograph, from near to far, that appears to be in focus."  IN A PHOTOGRAPH!  Not on the film or sensor or using the depth of field preview button.  It is absolutely dependant on, among other things, the size of the print and the viewing distance.  To understand depth of field, read and believe Michael Reichman's article on this site.
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Digi-T

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« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2005, 05:25:27 pm »

I've had similar problems with my Sony F707 where I was getting overexposures when I was trying to use the widest aperture in bright sunlight and I was limited by the 1/1000 max shutter speed. The solution was simple, I used neutral density filters to lower the level of light enteing the lens and preventing overxposures. Just get a 2x, 4x and maybe an 8x neutral density filter and you shuld be covered in most situations. Many other filters can be helpful too such as a split-neutral density filter that darkens only half of the lens and is useful in preventing blown out skies. Hope this helps.

T
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dwdallam

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« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2005, 01:07:14 am »

I forgot to add that I am a rank novice. But you who took me to task on technical language all know what I'm talking about. The first reply knew exactly what I was after and exactly one of the problems I was having using a small sensor digital.

The suggestion for neutral density filters was nice, and I'll try that.

The suggestion that I was using too high an ISO was in error,  however, since I was shooting in manual and also ISO 64--still blows out. Well, I thought. Check this out!

It's the LCD screen that blows out, not the actual picture. I went back to the marina today and just let it blow ( I mean I tried to use the best angle from the sun, but that was all), even using the lowest shutter speed. When looking at it on my computer, it doesn't look over exposed. However, as you all know, I didn't get the good out of focus background that film gets or high end DSLRs (.

I guess I'm just not gonna get that with this camera. I wish Sony would make the F828 with a large sensor and get rid of nonsense, like the movie aspect of the camera, voice recording, and anything else that is fluff, to reduce cost and compensate for the bigger sensor. How good would this camera be wiht a large DSLR sensor?

On the up side, getting close up potraits or really close macro-ish subjects with a decent background blur, the camera will do that. Still, the blur isn't like a nice film or high end digital i've seen.

I guess on the good side is that, as you point out, getting good shots that don't require the blurred, smooth background is a strong point of the camera. So I'll keep it and wait for Sony to do the high end game, or "higer" end.

Do you think they will? Or perhaps they will keep the same format and simply use a bigger sensor, producing a prosumer F828 and something like a PF828--for pro.

Anyway, thanks for your concern and replies, and here are some shots I posted on this subject. I just crammed them all on one page at 750 pix wide, so if you don't have aw fast connection, it'll take a bit. http://www.idlethoughtsandchaos.com/photo/
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howard smith

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« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2005, 02:43:41 pm »

AJSJones, please read Reichman's article on Understanding Depth of Field.  It isn't long or hard to follow.  In it, he clearly states you cannot ubderstand depth of field if you don't understand circle of confusion.  I don't see how you can side step such an important element.

Jonathan, have you suddenly changed your position on depth of field?  Also, depth of field is measured from the ceter of the lens and not from the sensor plane.  It is also the part of the image on the print, not in the camera) that appears to be in focus because of the eye's ability to see the circle of confusion.
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dwdallam

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« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2005, 05:28:05 pm »

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p.s. Your examples using shallow depth of field didn't seem too bad to me - you'd be challenged to acheve muxh less without an f/1.x lens or a longer telephoto/f combination. Just how narrow a DOF are you looking for?
Well, the macro stuff is pretty decent I guess, but I knew from the Sony 505v that that sort of DOF was possible--at macro. However, on such objects as the boat's coil of chain (on the front of the boat) and the background, that is where I'd like more. Being a rank novice, I still think that boats, as I am trying to capture them, old, wooden fishing boats in a marina, would be much more profesional and nicer looking with a nice background blur. There is so much cluttter in a marina you know, that it takes away from the object of interest. I live in an area where art is very important, and people are hungry for decent photography and other art. I really wanted to do a series on old wooden fishing boats. But now I think maybe I can't do it because I can't get that nice background blur effect that brings out the subject. I mean I can get the close ups ok, but not the front to back shots with the background blurred out. I can repost some different shots, and you can see what I mean with the NOT shollow DOF, and you can tell me if you think they would be worthy of display (amatuer display of course). I always make a point to say "amatuer" since I have always respected "professionals" in any field, be it philosophy, car mechanics, or photography. And by professional, I don't mean simply that one gets paid. I mean the quality of the work and the thought that goes into it.
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howard smith

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« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2005, 06:19:21 pm »

AJSJones, what you say about 35mm photography and 8x10ish prints viewed from 1-ish inches is about right.  The problem is taht many photogrpahers don't ever learn the assumptions that go into that, and therefore, believe that is all there is.  Then one day they make an 11x14 print and view it from 10 inches and are unhappy with thre DoF.

I have no problems whatsoever with what ever works for whomever, but I do get excited when they try to pass it off as fact.  Jonathan has stated that the onlt CoC that makes any sense is the pixel pitch.  That is just plain wrong.  If saying soemthing that is wrong is wrong gets in the way of your learning, well, I am just puzzled.

Depth of field is not a complex issue at all.  Michael's article is short. sweet and correct.  Describing depth of field as complex may scare some away, make them rely on the simple "it's all on the lens barrel" junk, and never learn.

If something is wrong, I do not mind saying so and having the likes of Jonathan call me foolish for saying so.  I have no problem when I am wrong being told that with an explanation of why.  I still have plenty to learn too.
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AJSJones

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« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2005, 07:15:26 pm »

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I have no problems whatsoever with what ever works for whomever, but I do get excited when they try to pass it off as fact.  Jonathan has stated that the onlt CoC that makes any sense is the pixel pitch.  That is just plain wrong.  If saying soemthing that is wrong is wrong gets in the way of your learning, well, I am just puzzled.

Depth of field is not a complex issue at all.  Michael's article is short. sweet and correct.  Describing depth of field as complex may scare some away, make them rely on the simple "it's all on the lens barrel" junk, and never learn.

If something is wrong, I do not mind saying so and having the likes of Jonathan call me foolish for saying so.  I have no problem when I am wrong being told that with an explanation of why.  I still have plenty to learn too.
Howard, The post that you said was "plain wrong" made no mention of CoC and whether pixel pitch makes sense.  (That's a totally separate discussion, one where you and JW clearly disagree).  He simply said "DOF / depth of field refers to the range of distances from the film/sensor plane in which objects appear acceptably "in focus"."

We've picked on whether it's the sensor/film plane (and that's a moving target) but other than that, the word "acceptably" and the quotes around "in focus" show this description is clearly being presented as containing judgements and not facts, simply giving a useful working definition for the OP.  For me, Michael's article is also not complex or daunting (PhD 30 yrs ago and 30 yrs in industrial R&D in a science field equipped me for that) but it's not where you send a newbie for his first definition of DoF - it's where you send him when he asks why the word "acceptably" is used and why the quotes around "in focus"

Please don't confuse the novices by bringing your spat with JW into an educational thread.

If the offending quote had instead read "DOF / depth of field refers to the range of distances from the "center" of the lens in which objects appear acceptably "in focus".", there is no way you can say this is plain wrong, given the qualifiers and quotes.  Doing so would do a great disservice to the OP who is trying to learn this stuff and who would be confused to learn that the definition might be just plain wrong.  It's how you introduce the "concept" of DoF to someone for the first time.

Andy - out!
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dwdallam

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« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2005, 02:24:39 am »

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Nope, that's f/32, not f/3.2. And yes I still consider the image to be display-worthy in spite of the fact that the legs aren't 100% in focus. The fur on the fangs is clearly visible and sharply focused, and it definitely has visual impact.
OK I think I see your point. The large format DSLRs are exactly challenged in the opposite in that you can't get enough DOF to make the entire subject sharp, as with your spider. So too much light hits the sensor.

Also, the way I understand the lack of shallow DOF with the F828, or any small sensor camera, is the lack of light that hits the sensor. Is this simplistically right?

I wonder if moving to ISO 200 and shooting wide open might give a shallower depth of field?
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dwdallam

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« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2005, 02:27:25 am »

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IMO you're just trying to nitpick everything I say to make me look bad and you look good, and I'd appreciate it if you'd quit. You'd be doing yourself and everyone else here a favor if you did.
Or please start a thread called "The Philosophy of DOF." I'd just like some nonesoteric help, for now, on my little problems.
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2005, 07:02:13 am »

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OK I think I see your point. The large format DSLRs are exactly challenged in the opposite in that you can't get enough DOF to make the entire subject sharp, as with your spider. So too much light hits the sensor.
Correct. The larger the format, the easier it is to get DOF so narrow it's useless. 4x5 and 8x10 film cameras commonly have lenses that stop down to f/45 or f/64, and they need to in order for such large formats to have usably wide DOF in many cases. That's how Group f/64 (which included Ansel Adems) got its name; Ansel and friends commonly used very small apertures (as well as camera movements and other advanced techniques) to create highly detailed and clearly-focused images. The tradeoff in their case was long exposures, sometimes several seconds, even in broad daylight.

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Also, the way I understand the lack of shallow DOF with the F828, or any small sensor camera, is the lack of light that hits the sensor. Is this simplistically right?

Indirectly, yes. The root cause is the small physical aperture diameter (the size of the "hole" light passes through to get to the film/sensor) that is more typical with smaller-format cameras. The larger the format, the larger the aperture must be to let enough light strike the film/sensor for proper exposure in the same time.


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I wonder if moving to ISO 200 and shooting wide open might give a shallower depth of field?

Half right. Shooting wide open (f/2 or f/2.8) will give you a shallower DOF than shooting at f/8, but increasing ISO at the same time would be a bad move. If you're shooting wide open, and were shooting at f/8 before, you'd want to reduce ISO in conjunction with opening up your aperture to keep the shutter speed within the capabilities of the camera. Opening up your aperture and raising ISO are both factors that require a faster shutter speed; doing both simultaneously can quickly put you beyond the limits of the camera and cause blown-out exposures.

With any camera, you have 3 basic variables you need to manage for proper exposure: shutter speed, aperture, and ISO. Generally, you want to use the lowest ISO setting you possibly can to get maximum dynamic range and image quality with the lowest possible noise levels. If you can use a slower shutter speed or larger aperture without compromising the image with excessive motion blur or too-shallow DOF, you're generally better off doing so and shooting at a lower ISO setting.

Set your shutter speed so that the image is not being unacceptably blurred by camera or subject motion, but you don't necessarily want to go much beyond that. For static subjects like landscapes, you're often best off stopping down to get a wide DOF (unless you're deliberately using selective focus for creative reasons), shooting at the camera's lowest ISO setting, and shooting from a tripod to keep the resulting longer exposures from causing camera motion blur.

Select your aperture to get the desired DOF, but keep in mind there are drawbacks to using extremely large or small apertures. When shooting wide open (like f/2 or f/2.8), lens aberrations will be most prominent (lenses that perform well wide open are much more expensive than those that do not) and when stopped down all the way (f/22 or f/32) you lose contrast due to diffraction. Most 35mm-format lenses are sharpest somewhere in the f/8-f/11 range, but this varies from lens to lens. Smaller format lenses start running into diffraction sooner, and their "sweet spot" may be more like f/4-f/5.6. But this varies greatly depending on the specific lens; even changing the zoom setting can alter the "best quality" aperture range somewhat. Experience is the best guide here.
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dwdallam

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« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2005, 06:18:24 pm »

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Half right. Shooting wide open (f/2 or f/2.8) will give you a shallower DOF than shooting at f/8, but increasing ISO at the same time would be a bad move. If you're shooting wide open, and were shooting at f/8 before, you'd want to reduce ISO in conjunction with opening up your aperture to keep the shutter speed within the capabilities of the camera. Opening up your aperture and raising ISO are both factors that require a faster shutter speed; doing both simultaneously can quickly put you beyond the limits of the camera and cause blown-out exposures.

With any camera, you have 3 basic variables you need to manage for proper exposure: shutter speed, aperture, and ISO. Generally, you want to use the lowest ISO setting you possibly can to get maximum dynamic range and image quality with the lowest possible noise levels. If you can use a slower shutter speed or larger aperture without compromising the image with excessive motion blur or too-shallow DOF, you're generally better off doing so and shooting at a lower ISO setting.

Set your shutter speed so that the image is not being unacceptably blurred by camera or subject motion, but you don't necessarily want to go much beyond that. For static subjects like landscapes, you're often best off stopping down to get a wide DOF (unless you're deliberately using selective focus for creative reasons), shooting at the camera's lowest ISO setting, and shooting from a tripod to keep the resulting longer exposures from causing camera motion blur.

Select your aperture to get the desired DOF, but keep in mind there are drawbacks to using extremely large or small apertures. When shooting wide open (like f/2 or f/2.8), lens aberrations will be most prominent (lenses that perform well wide open are much more expensive than those that do not) and when stopped down all the way (f/22 or f/32) you lose contrast due to diffraction. Most 35mm-format lenses are sharpest somewhere in the f/8-f/11 range, but this varies from lens to lens. Smaller format lenses start running into diffraction sooner, and their "sweet spot" may be more like f/4-f/5.6. But this varies greatly depending on the specific lens; even changing the zoom setting can alter the "best quality" aperture range somewhat. Experience is the best guide here.
I've experienced that limitation while experimenting lately. At some point, your shutter isn't fast enough anymore.

As far as slow shutter, yes I understand that. i've been using a tripod on most of my shots at the marina. And I came to that conclusion also, lowest possible ISO with long exposures, if needed. However, as you well know, digital is prone to heat with longer exposure. Again, more limitations.
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dwdallam

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« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2005, 07:30:57 pm »

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p.s. Your examples using shallow depth of field didn't seem too bad to me - you'd be challenged to acheve muxh less without an f/1.x lens or a longer telephoto/f combination. Just how narrow a DOF are you looking for?
Do any of you own the F828 who can post about the best possible shallow DOF I can get given the location and sort of pictures I'm tryng to get, for example, those I posted recently? And if I can't get that shallow, should I give up trying to do a series on these boats in the marina due to not being able to get a shallow enough DOF? I've noticed, such as that which Howard pointed out, and from experince using this camera, that the closer to teh subject I get, the shallower DOF I can achieve. But boats are too big to get that close and capture them "whole."

Gonna start a new thread with this question.
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dwdallam

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« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2005, 02:49:18 am »

Hi everyone. I'm new here, so hello to all
I bought a Sony F828 after owning a Sony F505v. Although I though about going with a higer end D-SLR, I'm just now getting much more into photography after years of playing. So I thought that since I liked and was familiar with the F505v, I would go for the newer model. Plus, who can dislike the cameras ergonomics and style + it's build quality? After reading for hours, decided it would be my best bet for my level of expertise. Now, I'm not sure.

I've been trying to put together, for the last month, a large series of old wooden (some built in 1915) fishing boats in the marina near me. I'm redoing many of the shots I started with using the F505, since the 828 is a much more complex machine with much better MPs for 12x18 prints.

Now I'm feeling somewhat like I got kicked in the stomach. I guess I didn't pay much attention to the DOF analysis I read. Man, I can't get hardly ANY DOF out of that piece of S&&T-haha. I can stop all the way down and blow the exposure completely out, even with the shutter at minimum, and then I get some DOF. But other wise, pretty much everything is in focus.  They should call this camera the all-ways-in-focus-AF lens camera. I do love the feel of it, but this has gotten me depressed.

Oh yeah, at macro lens focal lengths, I can get some good DOF using 2-2.8, since the light can be reduced by pointing the camera down or hding behind objects, etc.--away from the light, without over exposing. So at least close ups which fade into larger objects get some good DOF. But man I would love to get some nice DOF on the boats I'm shooting at longer ranges, such as an entire baot in teh picutre, or it's side filling up 3/4s of the picture, and then everything behind it out of focus.  I'm depressed

Any advice?
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2005, 11:11:04 am »

You should be. You're totally confused about the proper usage/definition of basic photographic terms.

DOF / depth of field refers to the range of distances from the film/sensor plane in which objects appear acceptably "in focus". Increasing DOF means widening this "in focus" zone so that more of the image is "in focus". Decreasing DOF reduces the portion of the image that is "in focus".

"Stopping down" refers to the act of decreasing the exposure aperture diameter. This will increase DOF and reduce the amount of light passing through the lens. It will also increase the f/number, as a larger aperture ratio means a smaller aperture diameter. Shooting at the largest physical aperture (like f/2 or f/2.8) is called "opening up" or "shooting wide open" not "stopping down".

"Minimum shutter speed" generally denotes the slowest shutter speed possible, usually in the multiple-second range. The fastest possible shutter speed (like 1/3200 of a second) is generally called the "maximum shutter speed". If you want to use "minimum" to describe a daylight shot, it would be "minimum exposure time" instead of "minimum shutter speed".

If you're blowing the exposure when shooting wide open, you're shooting at too high of an ISO setting, as the 828 will go up to 1/3200. Make sure you're at 50 or 64, and you should be able to keep highlights under control by either shooting manually or dialing in negative exposure compensation.

The larger the format of the camera, the easier it is to make images with narrow DOF. If shooting wide open with the 828 isn't cutting it for you, you should look into a full-frame DSLR like the 1Ds ($3000-4000 used on eBay, depending on condition) or the 1Ds-MkII (if you have $8000 to spend just on the body, lenses are extra).

In the meantime, have a look at the DOF calculator available here to get a better idea of what you need to get the DOF you want. Perhaps a smaller-format DSLR would be sufficient (1.5-1.3x crop factor) for your needs and save you a few (thousand) dollars.
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2005, 04:15:18 pm »

And just exactly what is the difference between my definition and Michael's? Other than I specified what "near" and "far" are referenced to--the film/sensor plane. Why don't you read my posts and take the time to comprehend them before making a fool of yourself?
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AJSJones

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« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2005, 10:05:41 pm »

C'mon Howard, didn't you see the use of quotation marks in JW's post - every time he used the phrase "in focus"?  Also, I read his definition (before I read your post) the way he meant it , i.e. as using the sensor/film plane as the datum for the distance measurement and not to mean where the image is "in focus".  JW didn't get it wrong.  He also sidestepped the issue of Circle of Confusion (usually abbreviated by using the initial letters of each word, as CoC; sometimes, confusingly ??abbreviated as CoF - such as in MR's Understanding series you referred to!) by leaving the phrase in focus in the quotes.  I though his post was helpful in the basics for an obvious newbie.  Your response was totally uncalled for.
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2005, 01:30:08 am »

Small-format cameras like the 828 are better at macro stuff than full-frame 35mm DSLRs precisely because achieving a useably wide DOF with a full-frame DSLR like the 1Ds can require stopping down to the smallest aperture of the lens (like f/22 or f/36). I did a personal macro photography project last summer with the 1Ds photographing black widow spiders. Even shooting at f/32, I wasn't able to get a frame-filling shot of the spiders where the entire spider was in focus, so I was trying to focus on the fangs in the dark with a flashlight with the spider bouncing around in its web from the wind, and occasionally the spider would move. It's a bit creepy when you're looking at a viewfinder full of black widow, and she suddenly exits stage left. You discover how quickly you can move when motivated by the desire to locate the whereabouts of the spider before she has an opportunity to crawl up the tripod or something...



As you can see, the body is in reasonably clear focus, but some of the legs are not.
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Graham Welland

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« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2005, 11:24:53 am »

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It's the LCD screen that blows out, not the actual picture. I went back to the marina today and just let it blow ( I mean I tried to use the best angle from the sun, but that was all), even using the lowest shutter speed. When looking at it on my computer, it doesn't look over exposed. However, as you all know, I didn't get the good out of focus background that film gets or high end DSLRs (.
I tend to not trust the display on the LCD of shots taken but what I do use is the histogram display to check for accurate or at least in range exposure. The flashing highlights and inaccurate rear LCD displays under various lighting conditions can't be trusted for much more than basic composition checks or missed focus. They are poor for colour check or exposure (other than gross under/over) compared to viewing the final files.

Take a look at Histograms on this site.

p.s. Your examples using shallow depth of field didn't seem too bad to me - you'd be challenged to acheve muxh less without an f/1.x lens or a longer telephoto/f combination. Just how narrow a DOF are you looking for?
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AJSJones

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« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2005, 05:14:23 pm »

Howard, I read it and learned from it quite some time ago and *if you want to get to the level of "DoF 601"*, everything you say is correct.  

However, there has been for even longer, a default consensus about DoF based on viewing an 8x10 (ish) print from around 10 inches(ish), or so and that is about where 35 mm camera makers calculated their DoF scales that have been around since before I was born.  It's therefore an issue that has been sidestepped for years until you get to advanced photgraphy, where the OP clearly isn't yet. For a confessed novice getting into photography 101, I would have thought JW's description was sufficiently correct  (the distances between sensor plane, exit pupil and nodal point - where is the center of the lens? - would also fall under the approximation of zero compared to most of the DoFs we're talking about).  Again, if JW had said "distances from the camera ... to the "near" and "far" he could equally have been taken to task at a 601 class. (i.e. which part of the camera if you want an A)  The OP knew what he was talking about (even if he used the incorrect terms) and JW spoke his language back.

I wouldn't have reacted to your post if you had pointed out that this is a complex issue and JW had simplified it, and then provided the link to MR's essay for further study.  Saying he was plain wrong is the kind of thing that would prevent a novice from progressing smoothly up the learning curve.

So, who uses CoF and who uses CoC as the abbreviation? - I know I've seen it in other places beyond Michael's essay

Andy
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