Mamiya AFD III or Hasselblad H2 for MF beginner?

[sflxn]

After looking at images online, I've come to the conclusion that I need to make the plunge into MF.  I have tried to figure out how MF has such rich tonal gradation using google with no luck.  I'm not sure if it's because MF are using CCD, bigger pixels, 16-bit colors, or superior software post processing.  I've decided to just go ahead and make the jump.  I've been monitoring the marketplace for these MF for some months.

Which MF body do you recommend for a beginner in MF?  I'm leaning towards the Mamiya AFD III because it's an open system and Mamiya is beginning to introduce leaf shutter lenses for their system (flash sync is important to me).  The H2 seems to be the favorite, but Hasselblad is going to a closed system.  That would seem to make the H2 a very dangerous system to chose if I wanted to use backs from Phase One or Leaf.  I've also handled both at a local retailer.  The Mamiya feels the most comfortable, and the AFD III seemed to focus pretty fast.

[flashfredrikson]

If you need fast flash sync and autofocus the H2 is the camera to get, especially if you wan't to use it now. There is no alternatve, because mamiya's leaf shutter lenses are not shipping yet, god knows when they will and which lenses will be available in leaf shutter versions and when...
I personally like the H2 with a phase back even if there are some drawbacks, but there are with every sytem. I would love to see phase backs for the Hy6, but even if a dealer told me it will be coming, I don't believe in that anymore. And the lack of a complete af lens line up fot the hy6 is also bummer for that system.
Some people need a 28mm, so if that is the case, H2 and phase is a no go combination, but I'd rather use a cambo or horseman or similiar tech camera with an h mount for those real wide angel shots.

I wouldn't worry to much about this open/closed system discussion, the H2 is a fine system which will be around for quite a long time, even B+H started selling new H2s again (where ever they get those from...), there is already quite a huge used market and it is available almost everywhere around the globe in rental houses. If Hasselblad gets their backs up to par with phase, maybe a H4d, H5d becomes a nice upgrade in the future and you will be able to use all your lenses...


cheers,
martin

[michele]

I own the PhaseOne 645 with a P45+ (mamiya afdIII). For my kind of work it's very good, I use long exposures, when I shot in studio 85% I use open flash exposures for moving liquids. I simply don't use at all fast sync... Are you sure that the web is telling the truth about the quality of a digital back? I shot people twice a year, the back it's slooooowwwwwww compared with a Nikon or a Canon or whatever. Why don't you rent a back for one day and just try it in a real world situation? Yes the mamiya feels better in my hands then Hasselblad, but I never use the camera handheld, so who cares?
The other thing you need to point out it's the lenses quality. I can't speak for Hasselblad, but I own the 80mm D, the 120mm D and the 35mm. The 80 and the 120 are digital lenses and they are good, the 35 it's a "film" lens and it does the job but it's not a beauty... With 39 megapixels the back outresolves all these lenses resolution. A technical camera and good Rodenstock/schneider lenses is the way to go. But, and its' a big but, what kind of photography do you do?
In the end, I think that buying a MFDB it's an expensive move, trying a system in your real world workflow it's the best gift you can get.
My best.

[Willow Photography]

If Hasselblad gets their backs up to par with phase, maybe a H4d, H5d becomes a nice upgrade in the future and you will be able to use all your lenses...


cheers,
martin
[/quote]


This is not my experience at all!

I had a H2 with Phase One P30+ for a while in 2008. It was a disappointment.
I actually gave up on MFDB that year and started to use my Nikon D3 in stead. ( had been working with MFDB for 7 years )

Did not feel I got the image quality advantage I paid for.

I got a lot of unsharp images and the LCD is a joke.

Late in 2008 I tested a H3dII31 and Phocus and was so blown away with the result, that I bought
one and three lenses (28, 50 and 100).

The D3 is now mostly collecting dust and I am very pleased with my H3D.
It is a huge difference between the D3 and the H3D.

I do not say that there is a big difference between the P30+ and the H3D, but for me
the H3D works a lot better than the P30+.

I have been working with C1 for 7-8 years, and still use it for my D3 files, and like it a lot.

But the H3D with Focus is a perfect match and it gets better with every upgrade ( and the upgrades are free :-) )

Willow

[flashfredrikson]

This is not my experience at all!

Of course, experiences differ and needs are different as well.
Some deal breakers for me to go with the h3d line are:
no long exposures
not usable with a tech camera without image bank or tethered (even if some reported to use a third party battery successfully, but hey, there is zero support for that solution and more stuff to carry around)
when i last saw a hassy in action it was still with flexcolor and tethered performance was horrible, i heard i got better with phocus but you can still hit a buffer? what are your experiences here Willow? would be interested to know, as i think the h3d makes for a nice system at a very competitive price.

I shoot tethered most of the time, so the display is not important for me, checking the histogram is enough for me when I am not hooked to the computer. But of course, a better display would be nice on the phase backs, it really is a joke.

I am not a phase fanboy, I couldn't care less about the brand i shot, but at the moment, this is just what works best for me :-)

[Professional]

I am very happy with my H3DII-39, i got it in Jan 2009, my first Medium Format ever, and now i have a hard time to hold my 1DsIII and Canon gear again, really amazing camera is that H3D and i couldn't be more happy now, and i am just a hobbyist.

[mcfoto]

Hi
If you are going with Phase then go with Mamiya. If you want the H system go with the H3D system.
Denis

[Alex MacPherson]

That would seem to make the H2 a very dangerous system to chose if I wanted to use backs from Phase One or Leaf.

That's ridiculous!  

The H2 is one of the most commonly used medium format platform used in North America. There is rarely a rental shop  that doesn't have
Hasselblad lenses and rental backs for the H.

Phase One and Leaf will continue to make backs for them as long as there is demand... which will be a long long time.

I started with the Mamiya AFDII and switched to Hasselblad. I needed a better flash sync than what the Mamiya gave me. I have no
interest in waiting for lenses with leaf shutters.

[sflxn]

Thanks for the replies.  It's interesting that some of you are showing the love for the H3D.  Some of the web reviews out there seem indifferent about Hasselblad.  Even when I talk to the local shops, there's more love for the Phase backs than the H3D.  The H3D do seem more price attractive than the Phase and Leaf.  I think I'll rent one and see for myself.

[Steve Hendrix]

Thanks for the replies.  It's interesting that some of you are showing the love for the H3D.  Some of the web reviews out there seem indifferent about Hasselblad.  Even when I talk to the local shops, there's more love for the Phase backs than the H3D.  The H3D do seem more price attractive than the Phase and Leaf.  I think I'll rent one and see for myself.

I feel obligated to mention that the H3DII-31 lists for $17,995, while our Phase One P30+/Phase One Camera is currently being promoted at $21,990 with 3 free lenses (including the 80mm). So, there's a $4,000 difference but the free lenses make up the difference to the point the price is equivalent. Unless you intend to only shoot with an 80mm lens, there is no tangible price difference between our systems.

The same holds true for the H3DII-39 and the P45+, except the P45+ is an even better value. For $21,995 you get an H3DII-39 with an 80mm lens. For $33,990 you get a P45+/Phase One Camera and 5 free lenses. These free lenses are all the newer, digital lenses, which average around $3,000 a piece, so you can do the math and see the value pretty easily.


Steve Hendrix
Phase One

[Professional]

I feel obligated to mention that the H3DII-31 lists for $17,995, while our Phase One P30+/Phase One Camera is currently being promoted at $21,990 with 3 free lenses (including the 80mm). So, there's a $4,000 difference but the free lenses make up the difference to the point the price is equivalent. Unless you intend to only shoot with an 80mm lens, there is no tangible price difference between our systems.

The same holds true for the H3DII-39 and the P45+, except the P45+ is an even better value. For $21,995 you get an H3DII-39 with an 80mm lens. For $33,990 you get a P45+/Phase One Camera and 5 free lenses. These free lenses are all the newer, digital lenses, which average around $3,000 a piece, so you can do the math and see the value pretty easily.


Steve Hendrix
Phase One

It will be almost the same between both, i bought my H3DII-39 from a local dealer here in my area with about $20760, and still i didn't pay all the money, i got it by leasing or monthly payment, so this price is unbeatable for me and the offer is something like once in life, and the man can give me the lenses in about 2000-3000 euro, and euro is down these days so i may get an advantage to buy more stuff if i can.

In all cases, i really want to buy a Phase one digital back, but thinking about it i will never afford Phase one any back with that leasing or monthly payment online and also i need to buy a camera body to use that Digital back on, so i will pay more than H3D itself no doubt.

[Steve Hendrix]

It will be almost the same between both, i bought my H3DII-39 from a local dealer here in my area with about $20760, and still i didn't pay all the money, i got it by leasing or monthly payment, so this price is unbeatable for me and the offer is something like once in life, and the man can give me the lenses in about 2000-3000 euro, and euro is down these days so i may get an advantage to buy more stuff if i can.

In all cases, i really want to buy a Phase one digital back, but thinking about it i will never afford Phase one any back with that leasing or monthly payment online and also i need to buy a camera body to use that Digital back on, so i will pay more than H3D itself no doubt.

The P45+ offer is for the P45+ and the Phase One camera body, it includes the camera body. And as I said, unless you will only shoot with the 80mm lens, if you add lenses to the H3DII system, you will come out at roughly the same price, perhaps even a higher price than the P45+/P1 camera. This is in the USA, I'm not sure of the promotion outside of the USA.


Steve Hendrix
Phase One

[Professional]

The P45+ offer is for the P45+ and the Phase One camera body, it includes the camera body. And as I said, unless you will only shoot with the 80mm lens, if you add lenses to the H3DII system, you will come out at roughly the same price, perhaps even a higher price than the P45+/P1 camera. This is in the USA, I'm not sure of the promotion outside of the USA.


Steve Hendrix
Phase One

I see, then this will be more logical and great deal, but too bad i am not from or in USA, and again as i said, i bought my H3D by paying the half price cash then the rest is monthly payment, only by this way i can afford a digital Medium Format, otherwise i will wait years and years to afford one maybe used.

Good luck to all people who would like to buy a new MF, specially to OP!

[Professional]

And too bad, if i waited little bit until this month maybe then i can get that H3DII-39 kit with about $19,100

[woof75]

It's a very simple answer to your question, I own and like my mamiya and phase back but if high flash synch is important then you definitely should get the hasselblad. Never buy equipment based on what the manufacturer says they are going to do in the future. I've done it before and it's not a good idea as surprise surprise, promises don't always come to fruition.