Do we ignore the problem with the Hy6/AFi Focus Screen?

[H1/A75 Guy]

The Hy6/AFI has always used a combination Focus Screen and Mask.

On the pre-production and early production Hy6/AFi, the extra 'Mask' layer over the Focus Screen had fully prescribed 48x36 horizontal and vertical frames. These resulted in accurate framing, but also created precise focusing errors due to the extra (Mask) layer.

Sinar and Leaf now use a Mask that does not interfere with the photographic area of the Focus Screen, thus guaranteeing precise focusing, but at the expense of accurate framing.

Would it be unreasonable to ask Sinar and Leaf to request that Rollei develop a Focus Screen with fully prescribed 48x36 horizontal and vertical lines on the bottom of the Focus Screen, thus eliminating the need for the Mask, while ensuring that precise and accurate focusiong is obrained?

I would be more than happy to purchase and etched Focus Screen that would assure accurate focusing and framing.

David

[BJNY]

The screens are available from Maxwell and Brightscreen as per Yair.

I haven't ordered one yet, since I'm renting.

However, I feel accurate framing ought not to be an optional accessory.

The Hy6/AFI has always used a combination Focus Screen and Mask.

On the pre-production and early production Hy6/AFi, the extra 'Mask' layer over the Focus Screen had fully prescribed 48x36 horizontal and vertical frames. These resulted in accurate framing, but also created precise focusing errors due to the extra (Mask) layer.

Sinar and Leaf now use a Mask that does not interfere with the photographic area of the Focus Screen, thus guaranteeing precise focusing, but at the expense of accurate framing.

Would it be unreasonable to ask Sinar and Leaf to request that Rollei develop a Focus Screen with fully prescribed 48x36 horizontal and vertical lines on the bottom of the Focus Screen, thus eliminating the need for the Mask, while ensuring that precise and accurate focusiong is obrained?

I would be more than happy to purchase and etched Focus Screen that would assure accurate focusing and framing.

David

[H1/A75 Guy]

However, I feel accurate framing ought not to be an optional accessory.

Nicely said.

The minimum expectation you have when you purchase a camera is that you will be able to compose a picture. To spend $35k on a camera that will not meet that minimum expectation can be a little disconcerting.

These are Sinar and Leaf branded cameras. You shouldn't have to shlepp a mask on top of the focusing screen and still miss the mark.

It's a hard party line for a company to sell a camera that cannot provide accurate framing and then say, "Your problem, Why don't you see if the vendor down the street can provide something that will allow you to compose a picture."

I would have rather have heard Yair respond to you, "We'll look into it".

I'm curious what Theirry's response would be..

David

[thsinar]

hi David,

Actually I gave my answer to this already, some time ago and in another thread speaking about this: I was saying that I had forwarded this complain and suggestion to Sinar, and I can now tell you that Sinar has taken it on his "list of improvements/suggestions" to F&H.

However, I have personally no major issues with framing when using the Sinar acetate mask: it might not be right when you slide it in, but one can then position it more precisely with a few test shots and it actually sticks there. And now my framing is a 100% accurate.

I am not sure what Leaf is using, though.

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry

Nicely said.

The minimum expectation you have when you purchase a camera is that you will be able to compose a picture. To spend $35k on a camera that will not meet that minimum expectation can be a little disconcerting.

These are Sinar and Leaf branded cameras. You shouldn't have to shlepp a mask on top of the focusing screen and still miss the mark.

It's a hard party line for a company to sell a camera that cannot provide accurate framing and then say, "Your problem, Why don't you see if the vendor down the street can provide something that will allow you to compose a picture."

I would have rather have heard Yair respond to you, "We'll look into it".

I'm curious what Theirry's response would be..

David

[BJNY]

Thierry,

In the heat of action, with the current supplied acetate cutout
- how do I know what my framing is when the digital back is in portrait orientation?
- how do I know what my framing is when the digital back is in landscape orientation?

[attachment=11584:framing.jpg]

[thsinar]

Thierry,

The acetate doesn't move.

My does, Billy, when you open/flip the screen, you can slightly change the position, at least with my acetate and camera.

In the heat of action,
- how do I know what my framing is when the digital back is in portrait orientation?
- how do I know what my framing is when the digital back is in landscape orientation?

[attachment=11584:framing.jpg]

Agree with this, but even if etched in the acetate, one has to know in which position one shoots.

Thierry

[BJNY]

The overlapping rectangles need to be etched into the focusing screen,
not printed onto an acetate.

[H1/A75 Guy]

Hi Therry,

Thank you for your response and sorry I missed your answer to this question sometime ago.

I purchased an AFi 11 7 late '08 to replace the H1/A75 I sold.

The leaf acetate only allows you to compose the shot from the very corners of the frame. There are no frame-lines in between those corners on which to compose an image. It's a guess, takes more time than should be necessary, and is not a robust, bullet-proof way of framing the composition.

A simple, overlaid, 48x36 horizontal and vertical etch on the bottom of a standard Hy6/AFi Focus Screen would solve all focus issues (no critical focus or framing errors) and eliminate the acetate mask. See BJNY's sample, above!

I'm hoping the folks at Leaf can rally with you and Sinar and with your list of improvements/suggestions to F&H. This is what I (and I'm sure BJNY) are asking.


Thanks guy!
David

[BJNY]

Too many extraneous words!

My attachment says it all.  

Accurate framing is fundamental, and was always provided by the digital back manufacturer.
I've used every MF camera platform (V, H, C645, M645, RZ67, GX680), and I've NEVER had to guess where my framing is
until now.

[Aurelio]

im working with afi7 and i must admit that framing is a bit annoying, recently i had very problematic session when i had to fill the frame with some machines, i was tight with space and most of the time i miss a bit from left or right side, it was sort of guessing.

[BJNY]

I don't kow if the Sinar acetate mask is different from Leaf acetate mask.

Sinar supplies the acetate cutout to Leaf.
The Sinar numerical code is printed on yours, correct?

[thsinar]

Sinar supplies the acetate cutout to Leaf.

I could not say this Billy, I don't know.

The Sinar numerical code is printed on yours, correct?

I think so, but can't check, my camera system is out for the next month.

Thierry

[paratom]

The Hy6/AFI has always used a combination Focus Screen and Mask.

On the pre-production and early production Hy6/AFi, the extra 'Mask' layer over the Focus Screen had fully prescribed 48x36 horizontal and vertical frames. These resulted in accurate framing, but also created precise focusing errors due to the extra (Mask) layer.

Sinar and Leaf now use a Mask that does not interfere with the photographic area of the Focus Screen, thus guaranteeing precise focusing, but at the expense of accurate framing.

Would it be unreasonable to ask Sinar and Leaf to request that Rollei develop a Focus Screen with fully prescribed 48x36 horizontal and vertical lines on the bottom of the Focus Screen, thus eliminating the need for the Mask, while ensuring that precise and accurate focusiong is obrained?

I would be more than happy to purchase and etched Focus Screen that would assure accurate focusing and framing.

David

I also think such a focusing screen would be nice (and also contacted Sinar regarding this), however I have not had any problems with the mask moving.

In one way there is some guessing included since only the edges are framed, on the other side I sometimes enjoy the mask to judge if I take a vertical or horicontal shot without having to change the position of the camera in my hand.

It might be that I do not have a problem with only having the edges because I am also used to rangefinders like the M8 and the Mamiya6.

Regards, Tom

[thsinar]

That exactly is the dilemma: some customers want it "framed", others cutout, and it's about 50/50 according to our findings.

The solutions would be to put both in the kit.

Best regards,
Thierry

In one way there is some guessing included since only the edges are framed, on the other side I sometimes enjoy the mask to judge if I take a vertical or horicontal shot without having to change the position of the camera in my hand.
 Tom

[H1/A75 Guy]

Please ask F&H to etch the bottom of the Focusing Screen (as shown in the figure on the right, below), and make it available to Hy6/AFi users.

[attachment=11584:framing.jpg]

It will allow for critical focusing and proper framing without the acetate mask.

If it is this difficult for Leaf and Sinar to do properly on the Hy6/AFi, the Focusing Screen on the AFi II 10 and is sure to be a disaster.

In the meantime, I would prefer the 'framed' acetate mask.

David

[thsinar]

In your idea it sounds easy, right. But manpower and dozens of other projects running at the same time is another story, even if for such a "stupid" little mask or focusing screen.

I wish life would be so easy you sometimes imagine it.

Best regards,
Thierry

Uhm, what would be so difficult about ordering a batch of blank focusing screens from F&H and engrave lines matching the framing of the back it is sold with? New back = new screen. Putting this on a wish list for a third party supplier seems rather inefficient to me. Sinar/Jenoptik has enough expertise in fine mechanics to deal with this themselves.

[ynp]

Does anybody know  how and where I can order the Maxwell screen?

I googled and found an Unofficial site:
http://www.mattclara.com/maxwell/index.html
Is the e-mail correspondence the only way to order a Hy6 focusing screen
from MAXWELL PRECISION OPTICS?

Can you all  recommend any other options/manufacturers ?

Thank you all,
Yevgeny

[paratom]

......
Can you all  recommend any other options/manufacturers ?

Thank you all,
Yevgeny

I have used screens from brightscreen for my DMR some time ago.
It seems they also offer screens for Rollei and it seems they also willing to put crop lines on the screens.
http://www.brightscreen.com/styles.html
The screens I have used for the DMR are quite nice, I have NO EXPERIENCE with the ones for Rollei.
Cheers, Tom

[william]

Does anybody know  how and where I can order the Maxwell screen?

I googled and found an Unofficial site:
http://www.mattclara.com/maxwell/index.html
Is the e-mail correspondence the only way to order a Hy6 focusing screen
from MAXWELL PRECISION OPTICS?

Can you all  recommend any other options/manufacturers ?

Thank you all,
Yevgeny

Yes, you have to call or email Bill Maxwell directly at the number and email listed on that webpage.  He does not have an e-commerce website.

He is a great guy and very patient in making sure you get exactly what you want.  I just got a Contax 645 screen modified by him with his Hi-Lux treatment and it's easily 2 stops brighter than before.  He will add whatever crop lines or modifications you need.

[H1/A75 Guy]

I haven't asked Yairs permission to post his PM to me this morning, but I do like his response. I also appreciate Thierry's response on the Sinar side, and hat's off to BJNY for stating the issue, and everyone for their support.

It looks like dedicated Hy6/AFi focusing screens are on in the works!

I will try and attach Yair's Acetate Mask files tonight, when I have more time.

"David hi,

Proof is that you got our attention:-)

Sometimes these “small” things get pushed because of other urgent issues, but that’s R&D life I guess...

I’ve attached a file with masks for Afi 7 and 10 with/without transparent edges. I Printed them on an inkjet film and tried them on my camera and they seem fairly accurate.

Of course this is a temporary solution and last night I got word that we’re going to have etched ones soon (soon means 2-3 months normally)

Let me know what you think

Cheers

Yair"