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Author Topic: Canon 1Ds (old) vs 10D  (Read 4055 times)

drew

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Canon 1Ds (old) vs 10D
« on: April 26, 2005, 10:59:36 am »

This is all about your photographic aspirations and the depth of your pockets. The price of the 1DS/1DSMKII is about 5x that of the 10D/20D and this is preserved in the secondhand values. Noise levels on the 1DS are perfectly acceptable up to ISO800, while the 10D is a bit better in this respect. However, the 1DS is a much better camera/photographic instrument than the 10D in all other respects. It is also better than the 20D. The 1DS MKII is improved over the 1DS in lots of respects and yields a print 25-30% larger than the 1DS at the same resolution per given area. Noise performance is quite a bit better at 800 and above. However, the 1DS remains an excellent camera capable of producing excellent results and it is a lot cheaper than the MKII at today's prices.
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Ray

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Canon 1Ds (old) vs 10D
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2005, 01:13:16 am »

As far as I understand (and I'm always open to correction from people who are polite and civil  :) ), the 1Ds would not have significantly less noise that the 10D on balance so this would not be a good reason to upgrade from a 10D to a 1Ds.

In fact Michael's review of the 10D makes mention of the exceptional lack of noise at and above ISO 400, implying that it's superior to the 1Ds in that regard.

The graphs at dpreview also show the noise levels of the 10D are significantly less than those of the 1Ds above ISO 400, although there is no direct comparison. One has to go through the circuitous route of comparing the 1Ds with the D60 and then the 10D with the D60. In fact, surprisingly, up to ISO 800, noise levels of the D60 are as good as or slightly better than those of the 1Ds.

However, there is a complicating factor. These dpreview noise tests are based on a pixel for pixel comparison. In practice, the real world comparison would be between 11MP and 6MP. This would have the effect of tipping the balance in favour of the 1Ds at ISO's below 400 and at least partially negating the noise advantage of the 10D above ISO 400.

If you are happy with the 10D noise levels below ISO 400 I'd see no reason to upgrade on this basis. The sorts of factors that would attract me to the 1Ds (I own a D60 and 20D) would be better focussing, ability to focus at f8 and of course higher resolution. The extra weight I could handle  :) .
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Ben Rubinstein

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Canon 1Ds (old) vs 10D
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2005, 06:37:37 am »

I know what the 1Ds is, the reaon's for upgrade are numerous, but mostly because of the gain in resolution and being able to use wide angle's which don't make people's noses look about 3 foot long.

The question is whether I would be disappointed with the noise of the 1Ds compared to the 10D and therefore should hold out for the mark II.

If Micheal is out there at the moment, I know you had and used these two cameras at the same time, what is your opinion?
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Mark D Segal

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Canon 1Ds (old) vs 10D
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2005, 09:33:06 am »

POM, I haven't used a 10D or singled out for attention 10D images, but I do use a 1Ds, and I have taken pictures with it up to 640 ISO under very poor lighting conditions. At this ISO there is some noise, particularly in the dark areas, but it is randomly patterned and Noise Ninja disposes of it beautifully. Combine Noise Ninja with a sharpening tweak from Photokit Sharpener Pro and my results don't reveal there was ever a noise issue. In a nutshell, my experience indicates that with this camera and software, noise is largely a post-processing issue and therefore would not be a major factor influencing an up-grade decision.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Ray

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Canon 1Ds (old) vs 10D
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2005, 12:53:47 am »

I always remember the long saga on this forum a year or two ago when I and a few other forum members (not too many others) wanted Michael to compare actual resolution (line pairs per mm) of the 1Ds and 10D, ie. same lens, same f stop, same distance to subject on each camera but cropping the wider FOV of the 1Ds to that of the 10D.

Owners of the 1Ds generally didn't see the point in such an exercise. There were several botched attempts (in my view) but eventually we got some credible results. The 10D proved to be noticeably sharper (ideal for bird watchers who suffer from a lack of sufficiently long lenses), but the shots were taken at different exposures due to the wider field of view of the 1Ds - more sky in the shot, for example, which would have shortened the exposure. Noise comparisons were therefore difficult.

On reflection, I think the best way to do a noise comparison would be to use an 80mm lens on the 1Ds at say f9 and a 50mm lens on the 10D at f5.6. Shoot the same scene with same lighting conditions from the same spot. Iterpolate the 10D image to the same size as the 1Ds image. Satisfy one's curiosity by enlarging shadow areas 200% on screen to examine noise. Print out large prints of each image to see if any noise differences are relevant.
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Ray

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Canon 1Ds (old) vs 10D
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2005, 01:47:25 am »

Jonathan,
What about that problem of the 1Ds in deep shadows? As I recall, there have been reports of irregular banding type noise in the 1Ds which could be a problem when blending dual conversion images.
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Lin Evans

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Canon 1Ds (old) vs 10D
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2005, 06:24:38 pm »

Quote
if I shoot at a constant iso 400 for my wedding work, with very occasional 800/1600, but need extra resolution than my 10D for the formals and landscape work which are shot at iso 100, would you still advise the 1D mkII over the 1Ds (old)?

First, the 1DS doesn't go to ISO1600, so if you require ISO1600 the 1DS Mark II is recommended.

The true noise levels up to ISO 800 are quite similar, but the 10D "appears" to have less noise when you view at 100% on screen. If you resample the 1DS captures down to the six megapixel level of the 10D they look quite similar except the 1DS grain pattern of noise is finer. Neither are great above ISO 800 but the 1DS tops out at ISO 1250.

I have and use both.....

Lin
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Ben Rubinstein

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Canon 1Ds (old) vs 10D
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2005, 10:15:50 am »

I'm looking to upgrade my 10D to a 1Ds (original) around the same time that canon drives the 2nd hand price even lower with whatever they announce at photokina.
A photographer I respect told me to hold out for the 1Ds Mark II as the noise level is so superior.
Thing is that he has been a '1' level shooter since the beginning of DSLR and I assume is used to very good noise control as afforded by the larger chips. I've been very happy with the noise level of the 10D, it was the reason that I sold my Mamiya 645 gear, lower resolution but no grain, I have a 18X12" print taken at iso 1600, 1/10 of a second that beats iso 400 film hands down. In other words I don't feel that I need much better noise control than the 10D offers.
Are the noise levels of the 1Ds equal or better than the 10D (relatively) or am I going to be disappointed?
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Ben Rubinstein

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Canon 1Ds (old) vs 10D
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2005, 04:35:04 pm »

So what you are saying is that the 1Ds with it's larger photosites has worse iso but better resolution than the 10D. hmmmm
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drew

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Canon 1Ds (old) vs 10D
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2005, 04:46:18 am »

Quote
So what you are saying is that the 1Ds with it's larger photosites has worse iso but better resolution than the 10D. hmmmm
On a photosite per photosite comparison I suppose I am saying that the 10D slightly outperforms the 1DS, although I would not want to back this with any hard data and I certainly do not want to encourage another suicide inducing discussion of pixel pitch, density and other tedious parameters. Ray makes the point and I will repeat it that there are more pixels on a larger sensor with the 1DS. To that I would add that it has a much larger and clearer image through the viewfinder, the autofocus is better, the buffer is bigger and it is built like the proverbial brick outhouse. You pays your money etc....
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drew

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Canon 1Ds (old) vs 10D
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2005, 07:24:34 am »

Well, ditto, so have I (had both cameras at the same time). I do not really understand what you want, but if its MR's opinion you wanted all along, perhaps you should have emailed him direct.
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Ben Rubinstein

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Canon 1Ds (old) vs 10D
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2005, 11:37:22 am »

Drew, I want to know:

If I like the noise characteristics of the 10D, will I be happy with a 1Ds or should i hold out for a 1Ds Mark II?

Answers based on resolution and viewfinder size are therefore irrelevant. I am upgrading, the only thing that is holding me back from the 1Ds (which is perfect in every other way) is worrying about the noise.
I use iso 400 as my base iso for almost all my wedding shooting and it has to be at least as good as the 10D, with iso 1250 being useable at a pinch (unlike iso 3200 on the 10D which is a waste of space).

I didn't realise you owned both based on your comment:
Quote
although I would not want to back this with any hard data
my apologies.
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boku

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Canon 1Ds (old) vs 10D
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2005, 03:47:24 pm »

Not exactly what you asked, but I have both a 10D and a 20D. The 10D is reasonably low-noise. The 20D is spectacularly low-noise. It is good enough for city street walk-around hand-held night photography (with the 17-85 IS lens at ISO 800/1600. The decrease in noise floor is very noticable, and the 10D was already considered the best performing ASP DSLR in its day.

Funny to talk about "in its day" about the 10D, isn't it?
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Jonathan Wienke

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Canon 1Ds (old) vs 10D
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2005, 01:28:58 am »

Having owned a 10D and the 1Ds, my conclusion is that on a pixel-to-pixel basis the 10D and 1Ds are roughly comparable; both start getting pretty ugly past ISO 800. But since it has nearly twice as many pixels as the 10D, the 1Ds noise is less noticeable in prints because the noise is finer grained and tends to average out more over any given area of the print than that of the 10D.
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Ben Rubinstein

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Canon 1Ds (old) vs 10D
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2005, 07:56:14 am »

Jonathan, I read your recent post on another thread about the 1D mkII, if I shoot at a constant iso 400 for my wedding work, with very occasional 800/1600, but need extra resolution than my 10D for the formals and landscape work which are shot at iso 100, would you still advise the 1D mkII over the 1Ds (old)?
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