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Author Topic: Mamiya camera shutter vibration?  (Read 3860 times)

Wim van Velzen

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Mamiya camera shutter vibration?
« on: December 20, 2004, 08:36:31 am »

The ZD is a totally different camera, compared to any previous Mamiya 645 camera. It is more of a 35mm SLR than of a 645 modular camera.

Therefor, any experiences about the M645 untill won't help you much. (btw, these cameras have a good name when it comes to shutter vibration issues.)
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Graham Welland

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Mamiya camera shutter vibration?
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2004, 12:25:48 am »

I would hope that the ZD is a next generation 645 AFD and hence better/smoother/brighter/faster etc. Obviously its hard to know in advance what the mirror slap performance will be like yet but if the AFD is anything to go by then I think you'll find that MLU is still an essential requirement for really sharp pictures. It doesn't take much to see the difference as physics comes into play when the larger mirrors are flying around and it's a difficult job keeping things vibration free. The good news is that this isn't in the same category as, say, a Pentax 67.

The good news vs. 1Ds is that there's a MLU button ... on the AFD it's mechanical but looks electronic on the ZD.

I hope also that Mamiya have done something about the sensitivity of the camera to viewfinder light ingress affecting the metering.  My 645AFD is very sensitive to this and for tripod work it's as well to be aware of it. (It seems more sensitive than I recall for my Pro TL before).
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Terry G

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Mamiya camera shutter vibration?
« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2004, 05:11:51 am »

We learn something every day.
It was always my understanding that it was mirror slap that caused`issues`, rather than some`shutter vibration` problem.
The mirror on my RZ is like a paving slab compared to the mirror on a DSLR (full frame or not). You should hear that thing flicking up!
I always lifted the mirror first and fired the shutter a second or two later without any thought at all to any potential `shutter vibration` problem.
Perhaps I`ve something else to `worry` about now even though I`ve always been delighted with the quality of my transparencies in the past,
 regards T.    
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didger

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Mamiya camera shutter vibration?
« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2004, 09:15:31 am »

Quote
Ps: I am hearing mumblings that the ZD body and Mamiya ZD backs may be delayed until summer '05. Nothing defimate yet, but this is what some dealers are saying.
That seems like a long delay, considering that they had a fully functional (?) sample at Photokina.  Anything in the mumblings what the problem is?  Any further somewhat credible mumblings about price?  The range of estimates is rather large.  Any mumblings at all about possible other MF DSLR offerings in the foreseeable future?

In any case, thanks for the update about the shutter issue.  Since I've had no problems with a Gitzo 1028 for my 1ds and lenses up to 100mm I expect that a ZD kit will be equally (marginally) backpackable.  Now to see if the release happens first or the money.  I'm afraid I have to bet on the release, but that's OK; I'd rather a few other folks be the very first guinea pigs.
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didger

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Mamiya camera shutter vibration?
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2004, 08:07:32 am »

As I've gotten more and more enthusiastic about ZD the more I find out, especially about the available lenses (and low weight and low prices), it has occurred to me that there's another very important issue.  Some time ago Michael did a review for some Pentax (I think) MF camera and he mentioned that the shutter causes rather extreme camera shake and that a very heavy tripod is required to keep the camera stable enough.  He also made some suggestions about how heavy a tripod generally should be relative to the weight of camera plus lens.  I tested my 1ds with the lightest CF tripod made (Gitzo 1028) and found that if I use MLU and remote control, there's absolutely no shutter vibration effect visible.  I have now done thousands of frames with this tripod and a super light Benbo ball and had no problem.

Does anyone know if Mamiya cameras in general have particularly vibration free shutters, or particularly vibration causing shutters?  If I have to carry an additional 8 lbs. or so to switch from 1ds to ZD, that's a total show stopper.  With all that extra resolution, even minor shutter shake would be an issue.
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didger

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Mamiya camera shutter vibration?
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2004, 08:40:26 pm »

Thanks.  I guess we'll all just have to wait and see how good this camera is.  I don't know whether to wish for so good I have to have it or so bad I absolutely don't want it.  A super MF DSLR would be, well, super, but being free of another serious episode of expensive equipment lust would also be pretty nice.  A win-win situation of sorts.
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didger

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Mamiya camera shutter vibration?
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2004, 06:30:54 am »

Quote
Obviously its hard to know in advance what the mirror slap performance will be like
I didn't ask about mirror slap and I'm quite aware that MLU and remote control are routine necessities.  I have my 1ds permanently set for MLU and I leave it that way even for the occasional hand held shot.  It's never been a problem.
A vibration prone shutter is another issue altogether.  Apparently (according to Michael) some Pentax MF cameras have very vibration prone shutters and require a big heavy triped even with MLU and remote release and apparently (according to Wim) Mamiya cameras generally don't have shutter vibration problems.  My experience with 1ds is that this camera has an extremely non vibration prone shutter.
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Mamiya camera shutter vibration?
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2004, 08:56:26 am »

People are confusing 6X7 format cameras and 645 cameras.

The Pentax 67 has a focal plane shutter and a large mirror. The mirror needs to be locked up for exposures longer than 1/125sec. But, the focal plane shutter is also so large that it presents a vibration issue even when the camera is tripod mounted, if long lenses are used. My Pentax 67 review is here.

The Pentax 645, for example, has a reputation as not needing mirror lock up at all, because of a superior mechanism. Until the latest model, the NII, it wasn't even offered. When the NII came out, with MLU included, I tested it and found that Pentax's claim was accurate, it wasn't needed.

The thing to be kept in mind is that shutter vibration is only a problem with the Pentax 67 becuase it uniquely is the only camera of that size with a focal plane shutter. Other 67 camera, like the Mamiya RZ series have leaf shutters, which are essentially vibrationless. So with it MLU is needed, but not because of shutter issues.

So, that brings us back to 645 sized camera, like the forthcoming ZD, which is a 645 with a focal plane shutter and MLU. If it is anything like its Mamiya 645 bretheren, or the Hassselblad H1 or the Contax 645, MLU is a good idea for long lenses and long exposures , while shutter vibration will be a non-issue.

Michael

Ps: I am hearing mumblings that the ZD body and Mamiya ZD backs may be delayed until summer '05. Nothing defimate yet, but this is what some dealers are saying.
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