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Author Topic: Telling It Like It Is  (Read 8694 times)

Marshal

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Telling It Like It Is
« on: October 25, 2002, 05:26:43 pm »

[font color=\'#000000\']Back to the nerds again. If I had a dime for everytime some pretentious know it all started talking about why a full-frame 35mm sensor was either technically impossible or feasibly impractical based on "current technology," I could buy a second D1X body. What is "current technology" anyway? It is so fluid, ever changing.

Is it the D60, D100, S2? Is it the very latest 1Ds and 14n? or is it something being tested in the R&D labs back at Nikon & Canon et al as I write that will even replace those? Those with too much time on their hands or those simply trying to impress others with their theoretical mathematics degree are missing the big picture. They're like those silly logic equations I took in a college math course a long time ago that are so narrowly focused on very finite possibilities, that they miss the forest for the trees so to speak.

"An apple is red. It is also fruit. An orange is not red. Therefore it cannot be fruit."

Okay, that's an over simplification of those logic equations, but you get my point. And many people are missing a lot of things about the real world. It's time for a lot of folks to take off their little propellor hats and enjoy the weekend in the real world. There's a lot of beautiful fall color out there now. Go out and take pictures, go to a ballgame or something. Enjoy life. Which is what I'm going to go do now. Caio.[/font]
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Rainer SLP

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« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2002, 06:57:12 pm »

[font color=\'#000000\']Hi Erik,

You said it and I think that a lot of photographers are waiting for this type of samples.[/font]
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Thanks and regards Rainer
 I am here for

Marshal

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« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2002, 12:27:43 am »

[font color=\'#000000\']I'd like to add that I was not trying to stereotype or make a blanket insult about older people in the message above. Some people are 70-80 going on 20. They remain active physically and mentally, which also helps in turn prolong their life. They take college classes not necesarily for credit, but simply for the fun of learning. They may celebrate their 80th birthday by going skydiving for instance. They take computer classes.

BTW, it was a conversation with 80 yr old Lauren Bacall one day a few years ago, who mentioned taking computer classes that put Hollywood photographer Greg Gorman on the track to digital imaging. At least in part. They had been having lunch one day after a portrait session and she suddenly mentioned being late for her computer class. Later they talked some more about it and Gorman realized he didn't know anything about how to use a computer. He had heard about the advances in digital imaging for photography, but had never sat down and really learned to use a computer.

He said in a recent magazine article, that up until three years ago, he had never even sent an e-mail. Today, he has a top of the line Mac G4 with about a Gig of RAM, 2 monitors, PS7 and various plug-in programs, his own Imacon 848 film scanner, and an Epson 9600 he now makes 44" wide prints from. Andrew Rodney did some custom profiles for him for B&W and color printing.[/font]
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Erik M

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« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2002, 10:49:57 am »

[font color=\'#000000\']Unfortunately, there are others at that age, and even much younger with a very narrow mind. They simply don't WANT to learn new tricks for whatever reasons. Their problem, not ours.    

Marshall,

I agree with most of your points, but there's nothing wrong with someone wanting to use film to capture their image, then drum scan it, and output the file to a lightjet or Epson. Doing so (and not using digital capture) does not make someone an 'old dog' who refuses to lean 'new tricks.' In fact, this is (scanning film) what Greg Gorman does, as you mentioned. The majority of medium and large format fine art exhibition landscape work hanging in galleries throughout the Southwest is produced in this very way. (www.westcoastimaging specializes in these prints and even prints the late Galen Rowell's photos) And these prints are essentially perfect--no grain, tack sharp, full of color and saturation--essentially perfect.

While direct digital capture is now excellent when married to 35mm bodies, it still has a long way to go in the medium and large format world. The self contained backs now available from Kodak and Imacon have a multiplier effect of 1.5 and are still too expensive for anyone but the professional. And self contained backs aren't available for 6x7 cameras or view cameras--and there are a lot of amateurs with Pentax and Mamiya and Bronica 6x7 cameras, not to mention panoramic cameras like the Noblex and Fuji 6x17 or some of the Fuji 6x9 and 6x7 and 645 rangefinders, etc. All of the mentioned cameras are awesome imaging systems capable of producing world class work for decades to come. Wanting to keep such systems (they are all ready paid for!) and print digitally through drum scanninng is a perfectly good compromise.

This whole discussion is quite complex--more complex than you can tell from these debates. You have the issue of professional needs and amateur needs, which are quite different. The needs of someone new to photography are different than the needs of someone with a great deal of current film equipment, or equipment that can't or won't be married to a digital back. Shooting styles play a role, as does the market you wish to pursue, if any at all. And then there's the whole question of do you think a 6500 dollar 1DS will result in a material difference in the quality of your prints. It's easy to see the dramatic improvement from 35mm to medium format. It's harder to tell the difference when moving from 645 to 6x7 and difficult on color prints up to 16x20 or 20x24 (depending on subject matter) to see a 'substantial' difference between 6x7 and 4x5 in color prints. Yes, the difference is there, but is it enough to want one to use a view camera and all its attendant difficulties? The same question can be asked of the new 1Ds. Sure, perhaps the improvement is there. But it's certainly not the dramatic improvement you see from 35mm to MF. So the question becomes when do you shell out 6500 plus the cost of your Canon lenses? At a 8% improvement over 645? At at 30% improvement? At no improvement but you just want digital for the work flow issues? Who knows? I guess what I'm trying to do with this post is show that there are more variables involved in using digital than just 'is the image better.' If image quality in landscape work was the only criterion that is acceptable, we'd all be using large format. But it's not the only criterion; and thank God; because if it was, we'd have no wonderful images from the late Galen Rowell, who shot in 35mm.[/font]
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Marshal

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« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2002, 02:37:42 am »

[font color=\'#000000\']Tim:

With all due respect to Leica known even more for its lenses than camera bodies actually, I can't think of any photo taken by Galen Rowell for instance with a Leica.

I'm not saying that you said Galen used Leica. Not at all.

Instead, my point is that Galen and 95+% of 35mm pro photographers I've ever heard of use something else. And using something else certainly did not hurt their careers. ;-)  

A few have used Leicas, but considering the high quality work of Galen, Art Wolfe, Frans Lanting, Jim Brandenburg, John Netherton, Steve McCurry and countless others with Nikon and Canon among others, well, I've never felt deprived by not having a Leica.[/font]
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Brian R

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« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2002, 11:48:20 am »

[font color=\'#000000\']Erik,
   you made all the points I was going to post. So I'll just say, If you didn't read Eriks post you should. He is right on the money. I've been shooting film and digital Professionally for a long time and I love digital, but it's not the best choice for all situations.

Brian[/font]
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Dave Gurtcheff

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« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2002, 03:20:29 pm »

[font color=\'#000000\']Several things have prevented me from trying digital cameras. First is cost. I'm newly retired (June 2001), so cost is a factor. But a very real reason for me is that I have always been a negative film shooter (color & BW). In my camera club days, I always admired the slide shooters, as they had to crop "in camera", as opposed to on the enlarger easel. They also had to get the exposure dead on correct, whereas I always had leeway. This means slide shooters had to be proficient with graduated ND filters to calm down contrast in an overly bright sky. I never needed to get involved in this when shooting color neg film. I always expose for sufficient shadow detail in the foreground---which usually overexposes the sky--especially if it is a sunrise/sunset. When printing such a neg in my darkroom, I merely burned the sky back in, i.e. an overexposed color neg has the information on the film. I now use a digital darkroom, and I expose color negs the same way. But instead of "burning in" the sky, I isolate the sky and foreground each on their own layer. I then optimize foreground and the sky using adjustment layers on each. The results are every bit as good as a custom printed darkroom print. Now my point: I understand shooting digital is like shooting slides. I would have to use grads, and expose carefully (god forbid!). Bottom line is I'm LAZY, and it is easier to shoot negative film . Now if they could invent a digital camera to produce a negative image where overexposure actually gave MORE information, instead of a blank white, maybe I would go there. Oh, let's face it--I'll probably go there anyway. Just another old-timers point of view.
Regards
Dave G.[/font]
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Marshal

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« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2002, 05:07:57 pm »

[font color=\'#000000\']Re: Your essay on the Digital v Film Debate

I couldn't have said it better myself. Tom Stotler said that one day the people criticizing digital will finally wake up and realize the superiority of digital with all its benefits. By the time many finally do wake up and smell the coffee and try to sell their old darkroom equipment, they'll have a hard time finding any buyers.

Do I miss the joy of watching an image come up on paper in the development tray? No. Why should I? Gone are the days of dealing with smelly and toxic chemicals and standing over the paper at the enlarger and trays. For me going from darkroom to digital is like going from horse and buggy to my 1999 Mercury. No offense to the horse. I like animals, but would prefer a better means of transportation.      

Yes, the yobos will be around for some time to come and the traditionalists who feel understandably threatened. The traditionalists don't like what you have to say and seem to want to shoot the messenger. Or at least shoot down the messenger on the net. As for the propellerheads with their micron and lpm count, I've read so many threads where they spend hours typing out some long, technical thesis based in large part on theoretical physics and mathematics. Often their math is wrong(not always, but quite often)and what they say doesn't apply to the real world of practical, in the field photography. Like you, I'm much more concerned about how well it will get the job done and done well for my needs, whether it be photographing the interior of a new church as most recently or alpenglow on the Rocky Mountains.

As for in-depth technical testing, I remember a review American Photographer did comparing images from a Nikon D1X to 35mm Provia 100F scanned with a Nikon 4000ED scanner. The D1X file printed with a Lightjet I think held up in resolution to the 100F print, also Lightjet from the 4000 DPI scan with the 4.2 Dmax scanner at 8X10 and 11X14 print sizes and even looked slightly superior. The 100F film scan won in resolution(detail and edge sharpness)at 16X20. However, the D1X file, shot in RAW mode still won in the low grain or noise aspect. That was with a camera with about 5.5MP resolution.

But now we're talking about new cameras in the 11+ MP range with the Canon and Kodak and whatever the next Pro Nikon camera will bring to the game. MF film is now fair game for 35mm digital, and when you consider what medium and large format will be able to do with 20+ MP backs, well, the writing is on the wall.[/font]
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Erik M

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« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2002, 06:12:41 pm »

[font color=\'#000000\']Michael,

You've got a great site. But there is one thing I wish you did in your test: I wish you actually took a photo of a high detail landscape scene with both the 1DS and the Pentax 645. I simply don't know how to evaluate your building shots. For me landscapes have always represented the epitome of detail. If you're advocating that on pure image quality MF landscape shooters should transition to digital and incure the related costs, a landscape shot would have been nice for our own basis of comparison. Though I understand if time may not have permitted that.

A great idea would be for you to sell, in addition to your video journal, a CD containing some comparison landscape images that you take with you 1DS (when it arrives) and your Pentax 645 and 6x7 systems. I would certainly pay to get a CD of images I could print and compare myself. Please give this serious consideration!![/font]
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AJSJones

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« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2002, 08:34:12 pm »

[font color=\'#000000\']Video Journal DVD would be an ideal (existing) vehicle for such files!!
If you're serious enough to want this kind of data/information, perhaps you already subscribe, otherwise .....

(No I'm not a PR rep for Michael!)[/font]
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Roger_Cavanagh

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« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2002, 04:52:25 pm »

[font color=\'#000000\']
Quote
I'm basically in agreement regarding the capabilities of the latest digital SLR's.  And I am likely nitpicking here.

However Michael's statement: Cameras like the Kodak DCS 14n (likely) and Canon 1Ds (definately) seriously challenge medium format."  has be a bit baffled.  

It seems that "likely" and "definately" ought to be reversed due to the Kodak's larger sensor.  Of course I realize we haven't seen any samples from the Kodak yet.
Doug,

Michael's statement is hardly surprising given what he wrote in Part 5 of his 1Ds field test:

Quote
The 1Ds also fares very well against medium format. Is it sharper than 645? No, not quite, but really very close. When you add in the extremely low noise of the images compared to scanned film, and add in all of the cost and workflow advantages of shooting digital over shooting and scanning film, in my opinion the 1Ds is to be preferred.

Regards,[/font]
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Roger

Tim

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« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2002, 11:29:47 pm »

[font color=\'#000000\']Yes, great article Michael, but what about the 3Dness of the Leica?!?!

       [/font]
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Marshal

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« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2002, 12:08:40 am »

[font color=\'#000000\']Someone commenting on Michael's essay mentioned the old saying "You can't teach an old dog new tricks." He was actually disagreeing with that old adage and for good reason.

I've always believed that it's not a matter of whether you CAN teach an old dog new tricks, but does the old dog WANT to learn new tricks? There are people in their 70s and 80s still eagerly wanting to learn new things and that's great. Unfortunately, there are others at that age, and even much younger with a very narrow mind. They simply don't WANT to learn new tricks for whatever reasons. Their problem, not ours.    

Another person responded by making the points that digital cameras have allowed him to take not only more pictures, but also better ones at that. It reminded me of something one magazine editor/photographer said recently. He said the instant feedback of the LCD image in digicams, gives him more freedom to experiment and try new things in the field. If it works, then great, keep that image. All the exposure, color, WB and lens info(in some cases GPS info)is recorded with that RAW file. What works he keeps. What doesn't he can delete right there on site. Much less bracketing needed and no need for in-camera dupes or dupes of any kind later, unless the client just refuses to accept a digital file. In which case you output later to a film recorder. The $$$ you've saved by not needing to buy or order brick loads of film and have it all processed will more than cover the occasional digital to film slide.[/font]
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genedel

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« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2002, 06:00:45 am »

[font color=\'#000000\']Tim
What are you talking about when you say" the 3D'ness of the Leica"?
Gene[/font]
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Tim

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« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2002, 10:55:27 am »

[font color=\'#000000\']Gene,
I was being sarcastic. One of the threads at photo.net had people ranting that digital will never be able to display the "3D like" images that "only Leica can produce". The debate was repleat with poor jpg compressed examples proving each sides point. According to the film camp this 3Dness could not be measured or described in any sound technical manor, "you just have to see it".

Tim
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Marshal

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« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2002, 02:53:04 am »

[font color=\'#000000\']I also realize that you were not saying that to brag on Leica, only referring to some messages you had read on another forum. My message above could best be summed up in the last sentence. I've never felt deprived by not having a Leica.

I'd rather buy a Nikon or Canon and have some money left over for a couple trips to AZ & NM. And for those who want to wait for 1Ds quality to come down to a much more agreeable price, that's perfectly fine and understandeable. The $6,500 for a 1Ds could instead pay for about 3 or more trips to great photo destinations along with the film and processing. For those with a good scanner, PS7 and enough RAM, you're in good shape for a few years to come. Inevitably the 1Ds specs will be available in the D60 price range. Eventually. Now that I have a great D-SLR, I will not be using film unless absolutely necessary. But I still have enough unscanned film to keep me busy scanning for years to come.[/font]
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Jhaelen

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« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2002, 03:16:02 pm »

[font color=\'#000000\']I currently shoot mostly 4x5 for landscapes and a mixture of formats for other applications. I do not feel at this time digital is up to the task of replacing large format. Having said that I do believe the day will come when it will happen.

Currently, for my tastes, digital is too expensive. Considering 4x5 is my main format for landscape there is no way I would consider dropping 6k into a digital body which will give me less image. I am certainly not against digital. If my main format was 35mm i'd have to consider one of the quality digital bodies. For the price of those bodies I can replace much of my 4x5 equipment! Ouch. ???

The question is whether people are using the tool they find most usefull for the application. Most of the debate centers around digital being better than film and vice-versa. This is nothing more than hogwash from both sides. The debate is not that simple.

I certainly hope some of the old processes and ways endure. I love platinum prints. I love the large format prints. Digital will be be equal or better one day perhaps...

When the time comes where digital can replace my tools with a decent match to quality, ruggedness, and equipment i'll be the first to jump in. Do not however expect me to pay 15,000 for a digital scanning back with a tethered laptop and scan times of minutes for landscape work  ::

So for me at this time the large format camera is a great tool. I've backpacked for days at a time with it and it is a proven, rugged, and quality system for great photographs. This is certainly not for everyone but the point is to choose the tools for photography that give YOU the results you require. If thats a digital all in one or a 1940's press camera so be it.

Daniel[/font]
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