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kaelaria

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« on: August 21, 2005, 10:22:03 pm »

I really like it!  Nothing terrible jumps out at me - nice to look at...
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macgyver

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« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2005, 11:22:52 pm »

The only thing that jumps to mind is the color cast.  I really dont like the over all color cast of the shot.  But, thats really a personal taste thing, nothing else.

Sorry to dissapoint, but I think its a fine shot.

-macgyver
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dazzajl

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« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2005, 11:16:27 am »

Right, I like it.  :)

The small things that would improve it to my eye are a small crop down the left side. At the water level, just inside the left edge of the frame are 4 black legs/pipes or something that I find quite distracting. A very small point I know but there removal just adds to the harmony of the scene for me.

The other point was that I would have liked to have seen the top of the Jenna Lee's masts in the frame.

D  :)
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dwdallam

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« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2005, 02:15:06 am »

Quote
Right, I like it.  :)

The small things that would improve it to my eye are a small crop down the left side. At the water level, just inside the left edge of the frame are 4 black legs/pipes or something that I find quite distracting. A very small point I know but there removal just adds to the harmony of the scene for me.

The other point was that I would have liked to have seen the top of the Jenna Lee's masts in the frame.

D  :)
Yes, that left hand busy stuff will be croped out with the matting. As far as the masts go, I got them all in at a different aspect ratio. I think I will use the one that has it like that too. The masts llok good when you can see them like you mention--good eye and thanks.
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macgyver

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« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2005, 09:34:57 am »

Personally, I wouldnt crop it more.  Yes, it's busy, but I think that adds something to it.  It gives your eye things to look for, and adds a bit of complexity.

-macgyver
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russell a

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« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2005, 08:17:19 am »

I appreciate your stance on Photoshop; too many times I see a work that telegraphs "Done with PS filter 'X'".  But, consider the following. In June I was invited to give a talk I called "Digital Truth/Digital Lies - Photography in the Age of Photoshop" at a photo conference.  My premise was that, looking back in the history of photography - nearly every Photoshop tool has its roots in darkroom practice.  It was just a lot more difficult to operate with the equivalent of blunt instruments rather than scalpels.

Your "daylight" treatment of the nightime masts shot is already pretty far along the abstract continuum.  Black & White photography is an abstraction.  Photography is an abstraction.

The question is does it work?  My sense is that your masts shot is kind of "betwixt and between" - thus my "halfway measures" comment.  Pedro Meyer's book "Truths and Fictions" from 1995 is an interesting treatise on film and digital approaches.  His work gravitates to a kind of "magic realism" so PS manipulation works well for him.  The key is not grabbing the nearest PS filter, but applying a unique treatment and doing it with the necessary mastery.  This is not a critique of your intent but some thoughts on what I see as implications in your valuable exploration.
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dwdallam

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« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2005, 03:56:42 pm »

Quote
I appreciate your stance on Photoshop; too many times I see a work that telegraphs "Done with PS filter 'X'".  But, consider the following. In June I was invited to give a talk I called "Digital Truth/Digital Lies - Photography in the Age of Photoshop" at a photo conference.  My premise was that, looking back in the history of photography - nearly every Photoshop tool has its roots in darkroom practice.  It was just a lot more difficult to operate with the equivalent of blunt instruments rather than scalpels.

Your "daylight" treatment of the nightime masts shot is already pretty far along the abstract continuum.  Black & White photography is an abstraction.  Photography is an abstraction.

The question is does it work?  My sense is that your masts shot is kind of "betwixt and between" - thus my "halfway measures" comment.  Pedro Meyer's book "Truths and Fictions" from 1995 is an interesting treatise on film and digital approaches.  His work gravitates to a kind of "magic realism" so PS manipulation works well for him.  The key is not grabbing the nearest PS filter, but applying a unique treatment and doing it with the necessary mastery.  This is not a critique of your intent but some thoughts on what I see as implications in your valuable exploration.
Yeah Russell, I agree with what you said for sure. Although I never did film much, I know that things can be done in the darkroom, as you say, "With a blunt instrument." So that is of some comfort too.

And also, I agree wiht waht you explain as using PS in a unique manner to create a unique filter effect. I do agree with that too.

So yes, if there is a way to make a picture 'better' with a tool, then I woiuld not hesitate to use it. This does all get abstract and causes one to really think about these things.

Plus, I'm relaly not into doing abstract for abstract sake. Using that iamge as an example, it just seemed to work in someway, so I went with it. I never relaly thought about creating that look. So I figure it was a creative accident, but I don't want to change teh accident more in photoshop since tehre are too many variables that would cahnge wiht it. My head could never process that many variables. And why? It's a good difference as it stands, or bad enough to not work on--lol.

Again, thanks for those valuable comments.
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dwdallam

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« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2005, 04:18:44 pm »

What is wrong with this picture:

http://www.idlethoughtsandchaos.com/photo/

1) Composition
2) Photographic value
3) Style
4) etc.

I'm trying to learn here so please be critical. I don't take your ideas personal because that is how I learn. So anything you feel that is constructive is cool. You can even say it outright sucks, because if it does it does, but please explain why. More information is better.

PS--remember that this is a compressed web version of the original, so ignore artifacting and banding in your evaluation, which I assume everyone does anyway.

Thanks  :)
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Ray

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« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2005, 10:58:43 pm »

I think a squarer format might have been better. Reflections in still water can be lovely. I would have liked to see more of them. However, I wasn't at the scene and there could well have been something distracting in the foreground.
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dwdallam

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« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2005, 12:10:12 am »

OK so far so good. I have a couple in a more square format I think. However, If I get more of the forground it messes up the composition and the rule of thirds. I have around 20 similar photos, some wiht more forground. I like the reflections too.

About the pnly thing I can do for the color is go lighter, which I'm about max now, or darker, which has proved to flatten the colors. I took a wide variety of brackets and the one that brought out the sheen of the water and reflection and popped the colors was f2-2.8 at 15 seconds. 13 seconds wasn't bad, but the 15 really did it.

This is a hard shot because to the right is a bright flood light on one of the boats, and I can't move around the yellow boat anymore becsaue I'd be in the water.  So that stupid flood light tosses off the colors in that part of the image.

I hope I get more feedback, and thanks for your input.
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russell a

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« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2005, 02:44:22 pm »

There's something that I don't understand here.  It appears that you are trying to take a daylight picture by night-light or perhaps twilight, but I'll guess the former, by using a long exposure time.  Why are you doing this?  If you are shooting at night, the photo should look like nightime - darkness, beautiful shadows, stuff disappearing into obscurity, mystery.  Otherwise, without dealing with the white balance you get this strange color cast, as mentioned by another poster above.  And, you don't get the color that you would get in daylight.  The color in this scene is not significant anyway.  This would be better in B&W and darker, darker.  Look up Brassai's Paris at Night to see what night shots are supposed to look like.  Or, tell me what your intent is that justifies this treatment.

Brassai Link
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dwdallam

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« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2005, 02:29:52 am »

Quote
There's something that I don't understand here.  It appears that you are trying to take a daylight picture by night-light or perhaps twilight, but I'll guess the former, by using a long exposure time.  Why are you doing this?  If you are shooting at night, the photo should look like nightime - darkness, beautiful shadows, stuff disappearing into obscurity, mystery.  Otherwise, without dealing with the white balance you get this strange color cast, as mentioned by another poster above.  And, you don't get the color that you would get in daylight.  The color in this scene is not significant anyway.  This would be better in B&W and darker, darker.  Look up Brassai's Paris at Night to see what night shots are supposed to look like.  Or, tell me what your intent is that justifies this treatment.

Brassai Link
OK fair enough. I have it darker too. I braketed the shots from black to over exposed to see what they all looked like.

No, it was taken in total dark, except for the lights. The reason the sky looks like it does, apart from exposure, is because of the marine layer (low clouds) that we get here 90% of the time at night. The lights bounce off of the low clouds giving the sky that strange, sureeal look.

Here as my thinking on the subject: If I do the traditional thing where you get black black and dark fades, the colors go away, like you said, which is ok if you like that, and I do like it.

On the other hand, if I expose it like it is, I get this surreal color cast to the sky and water and the colors.  I've never seen a nightshot exposed like that, and when I saw it the first time, I was like, "Wow, that looks tough." To me, the water looks like brushed green steel, and the colors have a sort of wet, dense unreal look to them, while being of course very real. The color of the sky, too, and the overall lighting to me is the same effect, kinda like the whole thing was arranged and shot in a studio with strange lighting.

At one point I was thinking the same thing as you that "Hey, the black needs to be black and the real color casts need to normal. "
So I took them with a more traditional exposure, but the picture just kinda went flat. It just didn't have that "in your face POP" to it, although I did like them.

The other thing I did last night was use the levels in PS to take out the strange color cast, kinda a magenta of sorts in the sky and water, etc., and it looks good to me like that also. So there are three ways I liked it--traditionally exposed, with a more real color cast using levels, and the way it is now.

The way it is now is just different, and it was, to me, a pleasant difference. It does grab you though, right? I mean it makes you think, but hopefully not in a bad way.

If you want me to post it with the color cast more normal using levels, let me know. Eventhing is the same, but the true colors are more seemily true. I do like it like that also. I'm kinda at a loss as to which I like better, but the way it is now is to me different in a unique way.

Last, with a  long exposure, I've found that the water, as it moves around for 15 seconds, has this really nice smooth steel like sheen to it that I don't get below 13 seconds. Now that you have me thinking about it, I may go back and shoot it at 15 seconds with a smaller aperture, like F3-4x or so to get a nice traditional black nightshot. That should still give a nice smooth look to the water and lights in the water. That may look even better. I'll definitely try it.

All in all an excellent point that got me thinking once again about different exposures. So anyway, Russell, what do you think about the exposure now that you have heard my explanation for the brightness and color? Is it just wrong no matter what, or am I maybe on to something creative in trying this new approach to a night shot?
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russell a

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« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2005, 08:34:35 am »

I'm for experimentation and I accept your intent as valid.  I've been doing some night photography myself lately and evaluating what works at night and what is less successful.  I agree that the particular view of your boats may not, as shot, be the best for night.  For me the subject is less the few larger shapes (e.g. the hulls) than the network of masts as the primary interest with the reflections as the secondary interest.  Fading the masts into the shadows may take away the most interesting feature, while, on the other hand, reflections fading into shadow have been good since Atget. Concentrating on the mast networking and going from crisp to obscure could be very interesting (but that would probably be my approach).  Or, with the slogan "no halfway measures" in mind, perhaps you should try pushing the "steely" look even further towards a semi-abstraction using the PS tools that do this in a way that you find works.  Keep going back. There are many photo possibilities there and, in my part of the country, the nights are very pleasant, hopefully in yours as well.

I find that I like night scenes that are, as my wife (and resident muse) puts it, "as colorful as possible in black and white".

Night Shots
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dwdallam

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« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2005, 03:30:03 am »

Quote
I'm for experimentation and I accept your intent as valid.  I've been doing some night photography myself lately and evaluating what works at night and what is less successful.  I agree that the particular view of your boats may not, as shot, be the best for night.  For me the subject is less the few larger shapes (e.g. the hulls) than the network of masts as the primary interest with the reflections as the secondary interest.  Fading the masts into the shadows may take away the most interesting feature, while, on the other hand, reflections fading into shadow have been good since Atget. Concentrating on the mast networking and going from crisp to obscure could be very interesting (but that would probably be my approach).  Or, with the slogan "no halfway measures" in mind, perhaps you should try pushing the "steely" look even further towards a semi-abstraction using the PS tools that do this in a way that you find works.  Keep going back. There are many photo possibilities there and, in my part of the country, the nights are very pleasant, hopefully in yours as well.

I find that I like night scenes that are, as my wife (and resident muse) puts it, "as colorful as possible in black and white".

Night Shots
It does look good in black and white actuallly. Since it's exposed like it is, it really brings out the black and white tons. The only thing is I have and still do hate black and white movies and pictures. Something about them just annoys the #### out of me. On the other hand, shooting a darker image with only shapes in mind may be very nice in B&W.

As far as changing the picture in Photoshop, such as making it look more surreal, I'm really not down with that. I don't know what it is, but I guess I'm a traditionalist digital user, as much as that is a paradox, in that I think the picture should be as true as the photographer can make it, and Photoshop is there to tweak things, like filters, levels, etc. I never saw much creativity in using a preset "emboss" filter or what have you in PS to create "art." That just annoys me too for some reason.
 
Of all the photos I've woked on since I started taking picture seriously, like less than a year, I've used levels and curves 99% of the time and that is it. It just pops the color a little more, which is kinda like using a film type that does the same thing, like Velvia (or whatever it is called). If and image isn't "sharp" enough, for example, I'll just go shoot it again instead of trying to sharpen it in PS (Although if one had a phenomenal shot just a tick out of focus and they got it 3000 miles away, I can see using it for sure). I don't have a problem using filter effects if needed, such as color balance and others that do the same thing as the new Film Filter does. Aside from that, I'm really picky about changing a picture in PS for some reason. I guess it has to do with the idea that I want to take a good picture, not Photoshop--lol.

I do have some pictures I think with the mast more prominant. I will post one if I have it. I took some pictures also where the exposure only gave a silloettte of the masts in another more dark area of the marina, and I REALLY liked it, except the platform I had to stand on to get teh shot was moving around as the tide was going out, and the masts were blurred.
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mikeseb

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« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2005, 09:29:34 am »

I agree completely with "russell a" that the interesting element in this image is the forest of masts, and beyond that I have nothing helpful to add to what he and others have suggested.

Be sure to post more results.
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michael sebast

dwdallam

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« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2005, 04:01:23 pm »

Quote
I agree completely with "russell a" that the interesting element in this image is the forest of masts, and beyond that I have nothing helpful to add to what he and others have suggested.

Be sure to post more results.
OK well, I'm gonna go back and shoot a few more soon. I've been thinking about all of this, and I think one more shoot will give me pretty much what I am looking for, hopefully. Plus, teh third boat is back as of yesterday. It could leave anytime again, but I think it's back as of now. Also, the tide may be a problem for the next week. It's been low after dark, and I'd need to wait till 1 AM for the tide to come in.

In any event, I'll post a couple more using all of your suggestions, such as more mast, less refelction and darker more traditional, less exposure. This has been a most difficult subject, but it has paid HUGE dividends to my experience level. The same can be said of this discussion and all of your input.
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