EOS 300D MkII???

[Tim Gray]

[font color=\'#000000\']I'd be surprised if they offered MLU in the Rebel any time soon.  What about a used 10D?  Some folks are upgrading.[/font]

[franxon]

[font color=\'#000000\']thanks dynamic. the website you gave is amazing. but i couldn't find tricks for 10D/20D there. are there any?

a new 20D always gnaws me, especially after i realized if i pay by installment i can afford it. but my conscience (haha) tells me a 300D will do me good for years, plus now there're tricks to 'upgrade' it.

sigh, which one is a more sensible choice?[/font]

[outerspace]

[font color=\'#000000\']KEH.com has 10D's in 90%-95% of new condition for $999.  New have been spotted for $1100 on the web.


Happy hunting

Stephen[/font]

[BernardLanguillier]

[font color=\'#000000\']Hi there,

> 1. canon and nikon make EQUALLY good lenses. (comparison, if necessary, must be done lens by lens. canon doesn't have an equivalent of NIKKOR AF28/1.4D for example.)

I am 100% in agreement with you.

> 2. canon owns a few core patents in lens making such as USM, IS, therefore equally good SWM, VR Nikkors can't sell at equal prices.

Actually, the VR patent is owned by Nikon (they released a VR compact camera years ago already).

Regarding USM vs AF-S, I believe that the ability of the Nikon system to allow manual override in Continuous focus mode is a definite plus. But the systems are otherwise roughly equivalent and Canon does offer more lenses equiped with the high end USM (the low end one that does not offer manual override being in no way superior to the Nikon body driven gear system but for the noise).

Interestingly, the Canon lenses are all more expensive that their Nikon equivalent in Japan:

14 mm:  Nikon 168.000 Yen against Canon 230.000 Yen,
17(16)-35: Nikon 162.000 Yen against Canon 174.000 Yen
28(24)-70: Nikon 165.000 Yen against Canon 177.000 Yen,
70-200VR(Is): Nikon 204.000 against Canon 213.000 Yen
300 f2.8 (IS): Nikon 430.000 Yen against Canon 530.000 Yen (the new Nikon 300 f2.8 VR being annouced 50.000 more expensive than the current non VR lens).

All these prices being actual street prices all discounts included.

> 3. i believe canon is still leading in terms of lens design & making tech. so: slightly better lenses (overall), slightly lower prices. why not.

That could be the case overall, but 2 famous and important exceptions would appear to be the 17-35 f2.8 and 70-200 f2.8 for instance.

> 4. D70 is better than 300D, out of question. but i'd rather regard it as a marketing strategy than technology difference. i'm pretty sure that the moment canon released 300D, nikon couldn't make any sensible counterpart. and that's why i kept asking in this forum that if canon is gotta release a 300D MKII to counteract nikon's D70.

You are obviously right, Canon is of course able to come up with a body equivalent to the D70 from a technical standpoint, and they will be in the coming months. On the other hand, think about all the amazing pics that your talent would allow you to take in the mean time... :-)

> 5. Nikon is catching up, though canon is still leading. that's what i believe we all are glad to see. competition! i am and will be using canon for the next few years to come (if you couldn't change my mind ) simply because it makes most sense of my $$$, not because i have any affinity to the embossed logo.

Which I can definitely understand and respect. My point never was to say that Nikon was necessarily the better option for you, but only that it was also an option perhaps worth considering.

Exchanging posts with you, I clearly realized that your decisions are rational but there are unfortunately many people roaming these forums who seem to value the defense of a brand more than their own objective interest... which I completely fail to understand.

Overall, the combination of the strong marketing of Canon and presence of many such people introduce a clear bias in favour of Canon that does, IMHO, not reflect the actual value of the 2 systems.

Best regards,
Bernard[/font]

[franxon]

[font color=\'#000000\']There's more than just Canon or Nikon you know.

I'd seriously think about that new Olympus E-300 if I were you.[/font]

[font color=\'#000000\']hi there, yes definitely there're more than canon and nikon, but what is the rationale behind E-300? i'd like to hear it.

best regards,

frank[/font]

[franxon]

[font color=\'#000000\']Do you guys have any idea that if Canon is going to release something like 300D MkII to counter Nikon's D70 in near future? Because I'm going to spend my hard-saved bucks on a 300D body which was released a year ago.

10D was discontinued and replaced by 20D one and half years after its debut, 1D two and half years, 1Ds two years.

So do you guys think I should wait or get it (probably end of Oct.)?

thanks

frank[/font]

[franxon]

[font color=\'#000000\']thanx tim. you guessed most right. firstly, i can't afford a 20D (by the time i can, that will be 30D or 40D i think). secondly, i think i need the mirror lock.

less versatile metering mode is a pity but not so crucial; lack of iso 3200 wouldn't be a big issue to me; build quality doesn't bother me too much because i'll handle it carefully, if i can possibly spoil the shutter or anything simply because of heavy/over use of it, i would happily go and get another canon.

however, the bucks are hard-saved, if with the same money, a few month later, i could buy better image quality (resolution/tonal/DR/noise) (though it's very good now but who refuses better?), build quality (again, who refuses better?) like some of which a D70 can give, i will feel pain. :-(

in other words, do you guys think Canon will come out with a MkII which will be better than D70 in a short time?[/font]

[drew]

[font color=\'#000000\']I think Tim is pretty well spot on. I think you will probably wait at least a year before Canon do anything with the 300D, because the 300D pretty well matched the 10D for image quality i.e. a disincentive for buying a 10D. With the 20D, Canon has more clearly positioned this camera not only in relation to its competitors, but also in relation to its own product range (although it could hurt 1D MKII sales). So get a near new secondhand 10D.[/font]

[61Dynamic]

[font color=\'#000000\']

...secondly, i think i need the mirror lock.

less versatile metering mode is a pity but not so crucial; lack of iso 3200 wouldn't be a big issue to me...

All three of wich are available through the Russian Firmware hack. Of course, you'll void your warranty and MLU doesn't do you any good unless you have a focal length over 100mm.


When I bought my 300D last January, I didn't think an extra $500 justified the few additional features found on the 10D, however, I'd consider a 10D if the difference was only $200-300.

I agree with the others that it'll most likely be a while before a 300D MKII comes out. You gotta ask yourself if the additional features in the 10D are worth the extra cost for what you do and if you think you'll be able to get $200 worth of use out of it before the next version comes out.[/font]

[BernardLanguillier]

[font color=\'#000000\']Do you guys have any idea that if Canon is going to release something like 300D MkII to counter Nikon's D70 in near future? Because I'm going to spend my hard-saved bucks on a 300D body which was released a year ago.[/font]

[font color=\'#000000\']Just out of curiosity, why are you not considering the D70?

Best regards,
Bernard[/font]

[franxon]

[font color=\'#000000\']Just out of curiosity, why are you not considering the D70?

Best regards,
Bernard[/font]

[font color=\'#000000\']reason no.1 is that i have some canon lens, including a 80-200 F2.8. i personally prefer canon glass and also want to make use of them because of financial reasons.

reason no.2 is that i have more confidence in canon's digital future (no flame).

frank[/font]

[61Dynamic]

[font color=\'#000000\']

but i couldn't find tricks for 10D/20D there. are there any?

Nope, it's geard for the 300D only.


Bernard,

I'm going to be frank (not the person) here:
Frank (the person) said he likes Canon's lenses better. That's something that's more important than the camera body. Trying to convince him to abandon the lenses he preffers because you think Nikon makes better bodies is a waste of time and is rather Fan-Boyish.

Frank's ruling Nikon out is completely rational and is in fact more rational than your "objective" view wich is based off a camera body and it's popularity around you (if popularity was a determining factor on camera system quality, then the 300D would win hands down as it's sales numbers make the D70s look pitifull). Simply put, he has and likes Canon glass and that's all there is to it.[/font]

[BernardLanguillier]

[font color=\'#000000\']if popularity was a determining factor on camera system quality, then the 300D would win hands down as it's sales numbers make the D70s look pitifull).[/font]

[font color=\'#000000\']Hi there,

OK, fine, I am not going to argue with you on that. I keep wondering though what it means to "like Canon lenses better" when you mostly will have to buy new lenses anyway (and you would therefore obviously not have any personnal opinion about these new lenses), but well...

Just your last point, could you please confirm your sources? All the input I got from various sources in Japan show that the D70 is clearly outselling the 300D by no small margin.

Best regards,
Bernard[/font]

[61Dynamic]

[font color=\'#000000\']

Just your last point, could you please confirm your sources? All the input I got from various sources in Japan show that the D70 is clearly outselling the 300D by no small margin.

At DPReview to name once source. The 6-month lead Canon had allowed Canon to dominate the market. The D70 is out-selling the 300D as we speak, but Nikon has a very long way to go before they can match Canon's low-end DSLR sales.[/font]

[franxon]

[font color=\'#000000\']hi bernard, it's amazing that a canonian and a nikonian have so many things in common to share.

*lenses are ~USD100 cheaper in Japan comparing to those in here, singapore.

*either canon is overpriced there or nikon is overpriced here.

*17-35 f2.8 i have no idea, but i thought canon 70-200 has a marginal advantage? but i'm very happy with my 80-200 f2.8. don't think my skills will overgrow the lens in any foreseeable future. :-)

*my impression is that, generally speaking, nikon users are more loyal to and proud of the brand (at least here in singapore), canon users are just users. that might be why nikon gears are selling slightly higher than canon here.

*canonians exhiliaration is because, i guess, (but i by all means am neither one of them nor do i support them): after being for so many years in the shadow of nikon, here comes the era of canon....

the last two points are off topic. ignore them if they don't sound right.

i now am going to get a canon 20D instead of 300D, Fujifilm S3pro is definitely a fantastic shooting gear in terms of the super CCD but just too pricy to me (it definitely will be, though i don't know the price yet). any other suggestions in Nikon/Kodak/Fujifilm line?

best regards,

frank[/font]

[Willowroot]

[font color=\'#000000\']There's more than just Canon or Nikon you know.

I'd seriously think about that new Olympus E-300 if I were you.[/font]

[Willowroot]

[font color=\'#000000\']Price should be good.  8MP.  Lenses half the size of 35mm counterparts.  And a major point: ultrasonic dust cleaning.

But I guess we'll have to wait and see for definite conclusions regarding performance, and pricing as well, once test samples are out.[/font]

[Tim Gray]

[font color=\'#000000\']There's no end to the waiting game.  Get it now and take lots of pictures in the meantime.  Canon generally announces in connection with the major shows so the next one is PMA end of Feb 2005.  What don't you like about the 300 now?  If there's nothing specific then why wait?  If there is something specific, like you want MLU or 8mpx, then there's no guarantee that the MKII will meet those requirements.   I'm assuming your budget won't accomodate a 20D.[/font]

[franxon]

[font color=\'#000000\']thank you tim and drew for your insightful replies. your 2nd 10D suggestion is very tempting, though initially i wanted to get a brand new 300D and overuse it for two years when i can afford my next better canon D (my dream canon D would be something like EOS 3D, you know what i mean).

here in singapore, a heavily-used-but-well-kept 1-1.5 year old 10D without warranty is selling at 1.3 times the price of a brand new 300D (USD1,200 v.s. USD900). which one would you suggest?[/font]

[BernardLanguillier]

[font color=\'#000000\']reason no.1 is that i have some canon lens, including a 80-200 F2.8. i personally prefer canon glass and also want to make use of them because of financial reasons.

reason no.2 is that i have more confidence in canon's digital future (no flame).

frank[/font]

[font color=\'#000000\']Hello Frank,

Fair enough regarding the lenses. However, as you know, you will have to buy new wide/transtandard zoom lenses anyway for the 300D. There are a few lenses that you might want to keep (like the 80-200), but the cost of switching to Nikon might be very low all things considered. Regarding your preference for Canon lenses, I am not sure what it is based on, but Nikon makes very good lenses too, and are usually considered to be ahead in the wide angles/zoom area (their 70-200 f2.8VR is also best in class).

Regarding point 2, I understand this impression. However, from an objective standpoint, the only area where Canon has a clear advantage today over Nikon is the very high end in which you appear to have no interest since your are considering getting a 300DMKII (and the situation in the high end area will have to be confirmed based on actual 1DsMKII vs D2x testing anyway).

Nikon is currently making tons of money with the D70, probably way more than Canon is making with the 300D.  Only looking around me here in Tokyo, I know 7 people who have bought a D70 in the past 6 months, against two who bought a 300D - before the D70 was released.  

I don't think that there are objective reasons to be concerned regarding the future of Nikon and its ability to release leading products, at least in the segment that you seem to be interested in. On the other hand, my feeling is clearly that Nikon has a better track record that Canon in the area. The 2 DSLR that they have released so far for the low end (D100 and D70) were clearly overall best in class (even if the Canon bodies had better high iso noise behaviours).

Although I am a Nikon user, I don't have any special loyalty for Nikon. But from an objective point of view, my feeling based on what you wrote is that you ruling them out might not be a completely rational decision.

Best regards,
Bernard[/font]