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Author Topic: 1 Feb, 2008 - Quality vs. Value - When is Enough Enough?  (Read 45580 times)

Ray

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1 Feb, 2008 - Quality vs. Value - When is Enough Enough?
« Reply #80 on: February 09, 2009, 07:56:39 pm »

Quote from: Panopeeper
It is absolutely clear, that if someone wants to measure or demonstrate the DR of a camera, one does not need to photograph something with a wide range of subject brightness.

It is the demonstration of the lack of understanding of the principles of digital photography, when someone requires such scenarios for comparison. The fact is, that exclusively the darkest shadows are interesting.

Measure or demonstrate? I'm talking about a demonstration from a photographic composition. You know, the sort you would like to look at, and appreciate as a work of art. Wasn't that clear?
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Panopeeper

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1 Feb, 2008 - Quality vs. Value - When is Enough Enough?
« Reply #81 on: February 09, 2009, 08:20:48 pm »

Quote from: Ray
I'm talking about a demonstration from a photographic composition. You know, the sort you would like to look at, and appreciate as a work of art. Wasn't that clear?
It is clear, that you are into prattling. You may appreciate that as a work of art; I don't.
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Gabor

Mark D Segal

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1 Feb, 2008 - Quality vs. Value - When is Enough Enough?
« Reply #82 on: February 09, 2009, 08:33:06 pm »

Quote from: Panopeeper
It is absolutely clear, that if someone wants to measure or demonstrate the DR of a camera, one does not need to photograph something with a wide range of subject brightness.

It is the demonstration of the lack of understanding of the principles of digital photography, when someone requires such scenarios for comparison. The fact is, that exclusively the darkest shadows are interesting.

Gabor, OK, but DR isn't the whole universe being discussed here. In fact, we're talking about how one relates numbers (covering several parameters) to images, so at some point you do need the images and they should have relevant, operationally useful characteristics, otherwise the whole point of the discussion evaporates.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Mark D Segal

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1 Feb, 2008 - Quality vs. Value - When is Enough Enough?
« Reply #83 on: February 09, 2009, 08:46:24 pm »

Quote from: Ray
Mark,
It's been mentioned a few times that the over all DXOMark score represents a 'weighted' assessment of a number of variables bundled into a single figure. One really needs to study the graphs under the various headings, such as SNR, DR etc, to get an idea of what to expect when comparing cameras.

One might find, for example, that at a normalised size of 8x12", camera A has 3dB less noise than camera B, at ISO 200, but the same DR. You would have to choose your subject carefully to get a visual confirmation of that one stop noise difference, especially bearing in mind the differences in the way converters handle noise, and the unavoidable manufacturing variations in equipment due to less than perfect quality control.

When I recently compared Bibble with ACR, I found that Bibble was indeed able to extract slightly more detail from a raw image than ACR, as some people had suggested, but only at the expense of greater noise. There was an implication to me that ACR might be applying a certain level of default noise reduction which one cannot turn off.

Yes true - their weighting scheme is an effort to bundle everything into one tangible statistic which they think has merit for differentiating overall sensor quality from one model to the next. You would almost have to be in their shoes to fully grasp whether they've exercised the most appropriate judgments in crafting these composites. Being serious professionals I'd give them the benefit of the doubt until better informed information becomes available.

And true, there can be differences between raw converters in how they handle noise, but at least with ACR and LR (perhaps also with other converters) one has a substantial amount of control over it. clearly a variable to normalize when doing comparisons involving images.
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Panopeeper

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1 Feb, 2008 - Quality vs. Value - When is Enough Enough?
« Reply #84 on: February 09, 2009, 08:52:20 pm »

Quote from: MarkDS
In fact, we're talking about how one relates numbers (covering several parameters) to images, so at some point you do need the images and they should have relevant, operationally useful characteristics, otherwise the whole point of the discussion evaporates.
There are confusions regarding the measurement of dynamic range. The most important issue is, that photographers usually accepts much more noise in "difficult situations", like in a night club hand-held, without flash light, than in "high light situations", like a landscape in sunshine from tripod.

However, it is not necessary to have a scenery of wide dynamic range to measure or even to judge the camera's capability, due to the linear nature of the raw data recording: the top end of the dynamic range is given by the sensor.

(Note, that the linearity of the raw data is not so absolute as some believe, but that is an entirely different issue.)

Look at the following example: a measurement taken on a Canon 40D shot, ISO 200. It displays the noise measured on a certain strip: 12.06% @ -7.38 EV, 6.20% @ -5.97 EV, 6.35% @ 6.09 EV. This show was intentionally underexposed by 2 EV; it comes nowhere to the high end of the DR. That is not necessary, for the sensor's general characteristics dictate the high end.


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Gabor

Ray

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1 Feb, 2008 - Quality vs. Value - When is Enough Enough?
« Reply #85 on: February 09, 2009, 10:58:59 pm »

Quote from: Panopeeper
It is clear, that you are into prattling. You may appreciate that as a work of art; I don't.

Which work of art are we referring to, Gabor? The one immediately above this post, underexposed by 2EV?
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Panopeeper

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1 Feb, 2008 - Quality vs. Value - When is Enough Enough?
« Reply #86 on: February 10, 2009, 12:09:34 am »

Quote from: Ray
Which work of art are we referring to, Gabor?
You were referring to the art of prattling, I to the art of measuring the noise and dynamic range.
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Gabor

jani

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1 Feb, 2008 - Quality vs. Value - When is Enough Enough?
« Reply #87 on: February 10, 2009, 04:17:06 am »

Quote from: Panopeeper
You were referring to the art of prattling, I to the art of measuring the noise and dynamic range.
Why don't you just keep to the technicalities? This is embarassing.

I wonder why you're not looking at how highlights are handled by the sensor, which affects the usable dynamic range. Effects such as sensor bloom seem to be of practical interest in photography, not merely as the art you scoff at.
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Ray

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1 Feb, 2008 - Quality vs. Value - When is Enough Enough?
« Reply #88 on: February 10, 2009, 04:26:27 am »

Quote from: Panopeeper
You were referring to the art of prattling, I to the art of measuring the noise and dynamic range.

Not at all. I was referring to the art of producing one's best attempt at an interesting shot using accepted good practice, such as ETTR, accurate focussing, appropriate DoF and a sufficiently fast (or slow) shutter speed for the conditions or the intent.

To get a visual confirmation of differences in DR between cameras with such a shot, the subject should have a wide range of brightness levels.

If the purpose of the shot is purely to measure DR, then I agree. You don't need a high subject brightness range. You can underexpose appropriately and examine the deepest shadows. Is that your point?
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jjj

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1 Feb, 2008 - Quality vs. Value - When is Enough Enough?
« Reply #89 on: February 10, 2009, 11:54:15 pm »

Quote from: Ray
Dear me! jjj. Have you been smoking something again??

It's widely recognised, if there is any credence to the benefits of oxygen-free copper interconnects, and other exotic formulations that cost an obscene amount of money, the audible improvements in sound quality are very, very subtle indeed.
Says the man who argues endlessly about differences in minute amounts of differences between various sensors and the like. And pointlessly as it'll make no difference to your output from what I've seen of it.
Widely recognized! By whom?

Quote
Anecdotal evidence such as you've provided above is basically worthless without full details of the circumstances. People who specialise in getting objective assessments of the audible differences between hi fi equipment, arrange the listening environment very carefully. The comparisons have to be made within a small time frame, to avoid as much as possible changes in mood of the listener. It also helps to use a recording with which the listener is very familiar, is aware of every nuance. It is also essential of course that the listener is not aware of which equipment is in use at any given time.
Do you simply assume every one else on the planet is a complete moron? And that no-one is as informed as you seem to think you are.

Quote
Visiting your friend on one occasion and listening to a piece of music whilst in a particular mood, and having smoked a certain number of joints, then visiting your friend a few days or a few weeks later, and listening to a different (or even the same) piece of music, having smoked a different number of joints and being in a different mood, and declaring that the music sounds better, is fine. I'm happy for you.
Your repeated and tedious insinuations that I post or experience things as I do due to my drug addled nature is beginning to piss me off. I don't even drink alchohol or smoke legal cigarettes and I find drug users incredibly boring.
Also my friend and I shared a house, so I saw him every day whether I wanted to or not. And immediately after admitting his new purchase he swapped back between the old and new leads and we listened again. And  I believe I turned my back, so I didn't know which he was using. I have a bacground in science and understand how good experiment protocol. I also have a selection of tunes that are specifically chosen to test various attributes of hi-fi kit. And the difference in sound quality between equipment is most certainly noticable. I've listened to tracks on high end kit that I've heard on merely expensive kit and you can hear so much more information. It's like using a higher MP camera and seeing more detail due to the extra resolution.
You talk such an an awful lot of shit at times and presume even more nonsense that has no basis in reality and then have the audacity to accuse others of drug use! Maybe you are simply describing your own experiences and projecting onto others. Guess what? Making assumptions only mades you look stupid.
 

Quote
But to declare that difference is due to the upgraded phono cables is just farcical   .
No it's not. I seem to be sensitive to sound quality and will often notice there is an issue when other are oblivious. Same thing with visual quality and partly why I'm good at my job. I thought it seemed a bit far fetched, that changing cables could make any difference, but I certainly noticed it.
 


Quote
Never heard that before. Where did you see that? On this forum? I know that Michael did a comparison between the Canon G10 and the Phase P45+ and made A3+ size prints which he showed to a number of experienced photographers who couldn't tell the difference. Is this what you are referring to?
No!
Try reading posts more carefully. I'm talking about the average person who cannot tell the difference between a 50D's shots and a Phase65+. Not professional photographers.
Something I find very annoying is when people who cannot discern differences, will never admit it may be them who cannot tell the difference and will insist through all sorts of dreadful reasoning, that there is on fact no difference.
I've DJed  Latin music and it's very tedious when ignorant people bang on about how all Latin music sounds the same. Just like all dance music , all european music, all Blues and all hip hop sounds the same, when it's obvious to anyone with half a brain, that that cannot possibly be true. If I wander around Beijing everyone will sound the same to me, no matter if they are discussing the weather or how to do open heart surgery. Even if they may be speaking Hokkian, Mandarin or Cantonese I won't know and local accents will certainly not be discernable when I cannot even tell languages apart.
To many Americans, all Brits sound much the same though they may notice a stong Welsh, Irish or Scottish accent. Yet many people can tell exactly what town people are from in their local area, as the differences in even the various Yorkshire or Welsh accents are very noticable to the trained ear. By trained, I mean having heard them a lot through simply living in area.


Quote
I think we all understand that at a size larger than A3+, the P45+ would identify itself, and if the nature of the subject were different, the smoother tonality of the P45 would have probably been apparent even at the the A3+ size, with icebergs at the Antartic, for example, or creamy smooth-skinned models.
Most of the population would simply not notice any difference.  Doesn't mean there isn't any. Most people don't even notice if a film is shown out of focus at the cinema.
Michael just ordered a 65+, despite owning a 45+, because even at that silly high level of quality there is a noticable difference to those who care.



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jjj

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1 Feb, 2008 - Quality vs. Value - When is Enough Enough?
« Reply #90 on: February 11, 2009, 12:00:34 am »

Quote from: Ray
Cloth-eared muppets and blind people generally cannot tell the difference between well-designed, average-priced amplifiers and very expensive, exotic designs of amplifiers.

To hear the difference, you have to have good eyesight. At least good enough to recognize the brand name of the amplifier in use.
And the only way to tell the difference between cameras, is by the brand name according to that cretinous logic. As they all take the same qaulity photo particularly if they are both the same MP.
Considering the amount of time you spend debating differences in sensors/DR/noise etc due to equipment, why do you decny that the same sort of things apply to sound equipment.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2009, 12:05:46 am by jjj »
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Panopeeper

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1 Feb, 2008 - Quality vs. Value - When is Enough Enough?
« Reply #91 on: February 11, 2009, 12:10:51 am »

Quote from: jani
Why don't you just keep to the technicalities? This is embarassing.

I wonder why you're not looking at how highlights are handled by the sensor, which affects the usable dynamic range
Don't be embarrased, ask if you don't understand the issues, just like now.

I am not looking at the highlights, because

1. I know when, i.e. at which pixel level the numerical range of the raw data ends; this is more or less fixed for any given model (the differences between copies are so small that they can be ignored),

2. the raw data is quasy-linear (if it is not, then one needs to know how to compensate for the non-linearity); I don't need to *see* any highlights in order to calculate the intensity ("lightness") of the raw pixels.

This is an important point to understand: the highlight region ends *abruptly* with digital, in contrast to film. The only question of the noise and dynamic range analysis is, how "deep" in the shadows can one go when looking for the "low end" of the dynamic range.
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Gabor

Panopeeper

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1 Feb, 2008 - Quality vs. Value - When is Enough Enough?
« Reply #92 on: February 11, 2009, 12:15:30 am »

Quote from: Ray
I was referring to the art of producing one's best attempt at an interesting shot...If the purpose of the shot is purely to measure DR, then I agree. You don't need a high subject brightness range
You said with different words just what I posted: you are prattling about something what I am measuring. I guess we both are making our best attempts; at the end of the day we can compare our results.
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Gabor

jani

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« Reply #93 on: February 11, 2009, 05:37:07 am »

Quote from: Panopeeper
Don't be embarrased, ask if you don't understand the issues, just like now.
Oh-ho-ho, very droll.

Quote
I am not looking at the highlights, because
In other words, you disregard what I wrote completely.

Please look at the article and the example of sensor bloom, which shows quite clearly that there are very real, very practical effects of highlights that must be considered, not only by photographers, but also by theorists like yourself.

I don't know why you choose to ignore this point completely and pretend that "I don't understand the issues".

I wasn't embarrassed on my behalf. I was - and still am - embarrassed on your behalf.
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barryfitzgerald

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1 Feb, 2008 - Quality vs. Value - When is Enough Enough?
« Reply #94 on: February 11, 2009, 05:44:03 am »

"When I recently compared Bibble with ACR, I found that Bibble was indeed able to extract slightly more detail from a raw image than ACR, as some people had suggested, but only at the expense of greater noise. There was an implication to me that ACR might be applying a certain level of default noise reduction which one cannot turn off."



Might? They have done for some time now..not really a problem for low ISO shots, but high ISO you can clearly see the effects of NR on the raw images. Compare ACR to just about anything else. The main problem area is shadow regions, obviously..and also it can smear colour noise, making it hard to remove it. Though I seem to be one of the few who is kicking up about it.

Bottom line, I don't use ACR for high ISO work any more, it's not up to the job
« Last Edit: February 11, 2009, 05:47:17 am by barryfitzgerald »
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Ray

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1 Feb, 2008 - Quality vs. Value - When is Enough Enough?
« Reply #95 on: February 11, 2009, 07:53:06 am »

Quote from: Panopeeper
You said with different words just what I posted: you are prattling about something what I am measuring. I guess we both are making our best attempts; at the end of the day we can compare our results.

Gabor,
You already know that I know that it is possible to devise a DR test methodology which does not require a target with a high range of brightness levels. It was little more than a year ago I was carrying out such a test in Chiang Mai using Jonathan Wienke's printed target of different size numbers, and posting the results on LL.

My approach is different from yours. I have a paractical concern only with the  benefits at the output stage of such factors as DR, SNR and high ISO performance.

The only reasons I'm interested in more DR is because I have photographed scenes in the past at base ISO which, despite a full ETTR exposure, have noisy shadows. I believe there is room for improvement. I also believe that achieving a full ETTR can be less of a concern when one's camera has lots of DR to spare and that there is consequently less of a risk of ruining a shot with blown highlights. These are very practical concerns.

The same situation applies to high ISO performance. There are some circumstances where use of flash or tripod is prohibited; most churches and museums in Italy for example, as well as art galleries in Australia. There are other circumstances where using flash may not be wise because it draws unwanted attention to oneself, or might simply not be effective because the subject is too far away.

In these circumstances, it's a real joy to be able to get acceptable results at ISO 1600 or ISO 3200 without flash in poor lighting conditions. However, I'm disappointed that cameras such as the D3 and D700 have only 1/2 a stop lower noise than the 5D at very high ISO. It's worth something, but it's no big deal. I was hoping for at least 1 stop lower noise and higher DR at ISO 1600 and above.

As regards resolution, with which many of us seem to be obsessed; again I have a very practical concern. I have a large printer, the 24' wide Epson 7600. I was using this printer with my D60 and 20D when the development of the 5D was still a secret. If I had not already been using this printer, I would probably have had second thoughts about buying a 5D so soon after the acquisition of a 20D.

Of course, a 24" wide printer can effectively use a camera with a far greater pixel count than the 5D. I'm disappointed again that the A900 does not have better high-ISO performance because that was definitely a contender as an upgrade to my 5D.
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Mark D Segal

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1 Feb, 2008 - Quality vs. Value - When is Enough Enough?
« Reply #96 on: February 11, 2009, 08:06:12 am »

Quote from: jjj
Says the man who argues endlessly about differences in minute amounts of differences between various sensors and the like. And pointlessly as it'll make no difference to your output from what I've seen of it.
Widely recognized! By whom?

Do you simply assume every one else on the planet is a complete moron? And that no-one is as informed as you seem to think you are.

 Your repeated and tedious insinuations that I post or experience things as I do due to my drug addled nature is beginning to piss me off. I don't even drink alchohol or smoke legal cigarettes and I find drug users incredibly boring.
Also my friend and I shared a house, so I saw him every day whether I wanted to or not. And immediately after admitting his new purchase he swapped back between the old and new leads and we listened again. And  I believe I turned my back, so I didn't know which he was using. I have a bacground in science and understand how good experiment protocol. I also have a selection of tunes that are specifically chosen to test various attributes of hi-fi kit. And the difference in sound quality between equipment is most certainly noticable. I've listened to tracks on high end kit that I've heard on merely expensive kit and you can hear so much more information. It's like using a higher MP camera and seeing more detail due to the extra resolution.
You talk such an an awful lot of shit at times and presume even more nonsense that has no basis in reality and then have the audacity to accuse others of drug use! Maybe you are simply describing your own experiences and projecting onto others. Guess what? Making assumptions only mades you look stupid.
 

 No it's not. I seem to be sensitive to sound quality and will often notice there is an issue when other are oblivious. Same thing with visual quality and partly why I'm good at my job. I thought it seemed a bit far fetched, that changing cables could make any difference, but I certainly noticed it.
 


No!
Try reading posts more carefully. I'm talking about the average person who cannot tell the difference between a 50D's shots and a Phase65+. Not professional photographers.
Something I find very annoying is when people who cannot discern differences, will never admit it may be them who cannot tell the difference and will insist through all sorts of dreadful reasoning, that there is on fact no difference.
I've DJed  Latin music and it's very tedious when ignorant people bang on about how all Latin music sounds the same. Just like all dance music , all european music, all Blues and all hip hop sounds the same, when it's obvious to anyone with half a brain, that that cannot possibly be true. If I wander around Beijing everyone will sound the same to me, no matter if they are discussing the weather or how to do open heart surgery. Even if they may be speaking Hokkian, Mandarin or Cantonese I won't know and local accents will certainly not be discernable when I cannot even tell languages apart.
To many Americans, all Brits sound much the same though they may notice a stong Welsh, Irish or Scottish accent. Yet many people can tell exactly what town people are from in their local area, as the differences in even the various Yorkshire or Welsh accents are very noticable to the trained ear. By trained, I mean having heard them a lot through simply living in area.


Most of the population would simply not notice any difference.  Doesn't mean there isn't any. Most people don't even notice if a film is shown out of focus at the cinema.
Michael just ordered a 65+, despite owning a 45+, because even at that silly high level of quality there is a noticable difference to those who care.

Jeremy and Gabor,

The use of expletives and recourse to personal insults is an unwelcome intrusion into an otherwise useful discussion. Both of you are serious enough professionals to sustain your reputations and enhance your impact on your readers by being moderate on the keyboard. I would suggest there is merit to keeping this discussion polite, dispassionate, impersonal and technical. Otherwise you annoy other readers and do yourselves a professional disservice.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Ray

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1 Feb, 2008 - Quality vs. Value - When is Enough Enough?
« Reply #97 on: February 11, 2009, 08:17:24 am »

Quote from: barryfitzgerald
The main problem area is shadow regions, obviously..and also it can smear colour noise, making it hard to remove it. Though I seem to be one of the few who is kicking up about it.

Bottom line, I don't use ACR for high ISO work any more, it's not up to the job

It's not only deep shadow regions but lower midtones. The images with clearly extra detail in the Bibble conversions, also had clearly more noise in the shadows, lower midtones and even midtones.

I never went to the trouble of making prints of the images. I'm not sure it's necessary, provided one is always aware of what size of print a particular degree of magnification on one's monitor represents. At 100%, one often might be looking at a print size of 4ftx6ft, depending on the pixel count of the DSLR and the resolution of one's monitor.

When one takes such factors into consideration, at a particular print size both the extra detail of the Bibble conversion as well as the extra noise might disappear, leaving one with a net zero benefit compared with ACR.
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Mark D Segal

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1 Feb, 2008 - Quality vs. Value - When is Enough Enough?
« Reply #98 on: February 11, 2009, 08:18:08 am »

Quote from: Ray
Of course, a 24" wide printer can effectively use a camera with a far greater pixel count than the 5D. I'm disappointed again that the A900 does not have better high-ISO performance because that was definitely a contender as an upgrade to my 5D.

Ray,

Take care on this one. Have you seen high ISO results from the Sony A900? I have and they are very good. Also, referring to the numbers, I'm comparing my Canon 1DsMk3 with the Sony A900: the difference in overall sensor score is Neglible - a mere 1.4 DxO Marks. When you look at the price difference between these two cameras, had the A900 been available when I bought my 1Ds3 (the day it arrived in Toronto) I would have cancelled that order and bought an A900. If the Sony A900 performs just about as well on noise as my 1Ds3, I'd be a happy camper, because I've done lots of work at 1600 and much of it either doesn't need noise reduction, or very little, to get a fine print at least to Super A3 (13*19 inches). This depends much on the content of the image. I can't speak beyond those parameters because that's as far as I've gone both for ISO and print size. If high ISO noise performance is the only factor discouraging you from getting more of the resolution that your large-format printer can handle, I would suggest you test the camera - if only in the camera shop, at high ISo, take the shots back to your workplace and examine them. You may be pleasantly surprised.

Mark
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michael

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1 Feb, 2008 - Quality vs. Value - When is Enough Enough?
« Reply #99 on: February 11, 2009, 08:33:33 am »

I agree with Mark that this is a useful thread, so I'll leave it open for the moment. But, any more personal attacks and it'll be closed and the guilty parties given 30 days in the klink.

Michael

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