Lighting, Best way to achieve this effect

[Snook]

what about:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1853...r_for_Size.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/4426...tern_Maker.html

looks like a cheap alternative.

Well where I live I am very limited to resources..
I am renting a 25k HMI..
Any suggestions as to distance etc...
If I want the branches to have sharper shadows they should be closer to the background and further from the light source, correct?
Just double checking my specs.. I am going to do a trial in the studio the day before the shoot.
I have another doubt as to wether I should put a diffusion panel in front of the HMI or just leave it bare?
Thanks for anymore suggestions. I am not sure the shots I do will be so open, I think they will tighter and not even going to see the floor...

Thanks guys
Snook

[Ken R]

High:

You need to build a set and have a good ammount of space between the light and the fake window. Think of the distance relashionship between the light source (and size) distance to fake window and the distance from the fake window to the wall or walls that the shadow is to be projected. The distance between the light source and the window should be more than the distance from the fake window to the wall where the shadow will fall.

HMI will give a wonderfull light but you can use a large 10k fresnel (tungsten). It will give you a nice sharp shadow (better than the one in the image shown for reference)  but still be soft enough to be very pleasant on a model.

[Peter McLennan]

Looks to me like the light is about 40' or better away from the "frame" and branch diffusion and I'd guess the spill distance from the diffusion to the model and couch is about 15-20'
Then again I might be right. Sooner or later if I keep guessing I'm sure I'll hit one of those nails on the head

I agree.  Unless this is a comp, I'd guess that it's a big setup.  ie, long distance required from source to set and a big light.  The light is covering a large area of the backdrop so it's quite far away and the shadow-making goboes are a fair distance from the source.  Tens of feet, at least.

A bare HMI would be my choice, too.  If you can remove the lens from the lamp, the shadows will be even sharper. An arc light with the lens removed is the ultimate hard source.  (not counting the sun) The 25K should certainly do.  You're correct that the farther from the source the goboes are, the sharper their shadows, hence the need for a large set.

[Snook]

I agree.  Unless this is a comp, I'd guess that it's a big setup.  ie, long distance required from source to set and a big light.  The light is covering a large area of the backdrop so it's quite far away and the shadow-making goboes are a fair distance from the source.  Tens of feet, at least.

A bare HMI would be my choice, too.  If you can remove the lens from the lamp, the shadows will be even sharper. An arc light with the lens removed is the ultimate hard source.  (not counting the sun) The 25K should certainly do.  You're correct that the farther from the source the goboes are, the sharper their shadows, hence the need for a large set.

Thank you guys...
I guess Flash would be out of the picture them?
Also and recommendations when mixing Flash with the HMI?
My reference is a little off maybe as the client toldme I do not need to see such a Big area and maybe not even a floor... that will help in the size department and distance I will need.
I was thinking about setting the shadow to the background in some shots only and lighting the model who will behind some dry branches brought into the studio..
Thank for the advice and anymore advice is welcome...:+]
Thanks guys
Snook

[wollom]

As lots of people come here to learn, may I offer:

GOBO - The derivation "Goes Before Optics" is from motion picture production, where gobo is an antiquated term for a what is now called a "flag". (wikipedia) Casts a shadow.
COOKIE-  also known as a cucalorus, is traditionally a small plate of metal with shapes cut into it, inserted in an ellipsoidal spotlight. By placing the cookie in the path of the light, the cut out areas create light and shadow shapes that are projected onto a background.
SCRIM- A scrim or gauze is a very light textile. OR It is a small screen that is slot loaded into a light can to lower its intensity. Scrims are often circular with thin aluminum or steel frame holding the screen together.  Half scrims only have half of the scrim covered with a wire mesh. Usually diffuses light, gives soft shadows.

To get sharp shadows - small light source and/or distant light source OR cookie
To get parallel shadow lines - distant light source OR cookie (with very very careful geometry)

A 25kW Fresnel is a large area source and would need to be a long way away.
(edit- I'm guessing Snook meant a 2.5kW HMI. A Par version would work at a distance, a fresnel version would work better without the lens and reflector.  A 25kW light usually comes with a truck mounted generator!)
As suggested by others - a bare flash, hot light or HMI lamp, preferably flagged to control spill, gives sharp shadows.

Best

Wollom

[Snook]

As lots of people come here to learn, may I offer:

GOBO - The derivation "Goes Before Optics" is from motion picture production, where gobo is an antiquated term for a what is now called a "flag". (wikipedia) Casts a shadow.
COOKIE-  also known as a cucalorus, is traditionally a small plate of metal with shapes cut into it, inserted in an ellipsoidal spotlight. By placing the cookie in the path of the light, the cut out areas create light and shadow shapes that are projected onto a background.
SCRIM- A scrim or gauze is a very light textile. OR It is a small screen that is slot loaded into a light can to lower its intensity. Scrims are often circular with thin aluminum or steel frame holding the screen together.  Half scrims only have half of the scrim covered with a wire mesh. Usually diffuses light, gives soft shadows.

To get sharp shadows - small light source and/or distant light source OR cookie
To get parallel shadow lines - distant light source OR cookie (with very very careful geometry)

A 25kW Fresnel is a large area source and would need to be a long way away.
(edit- I'm guessing Snook meant a 2.5kW HMI. A Par version would work at a distance, a fresnel version would work better without the lens and reflector.  A 25kW light usually comes with a truck mounted generator!)
As suggested by others - a bare flash, hot light or HMI lamp, preferably flagged to control spill, gives sharp shadows.

Best

Wollom

Hey Wollom, Thank for the reply..
I know what the terms mean and where I live unfortunelty there not too many options.
Also yes I meant a 2.5k and I have a 5k if needed.
To tell you the truth I would rather use flash but not sure it would work s great...?
I am going to post some more images that are references.
I think the large shadow as I posted will not be used so most images will be portrait framed so shadow need to be on wall behind model and or crossing her/him.

I have Profoto 7a with one head and a Bowens 1000 watt head and lot's of smaller heads profoto and Bowens.
Also the window shadow has been eliminated making the shoot easier I think.
My studio is about 12 meters long and 3-4 meters wide. I was thinking about trying the profoto 7a head with out reflector. Not sure if I should have it angled upwards to the ceiling or straight on??
What is going to create a "better" shadow or smaller light source?
That i was planning on putting in the back corner. then but branches about half way bewtween light source and "model". depening on the shadows wanted. My only doubt really is that some shots they want the branhces in front of the model and some shadows from branches behind the "model"??
Not sure I have the space to do that as my studio is not so wide....

Here comes 2 more examples:
[attachment=11426:Picture_1.png]
[attachment=11427:Picture_2.png]
[attachment=11428:Picture_3.png]

[Peter McLennan]

'Snook' date='Feb 10 2009, 06:34 AM' post='258874']

>I am going to post some more images that are references.

These are totally different images from the first reference.   The geometry of the setup is easily do-able in a studio.  Note the size of the background area that's lit with the effect.  It's far, far smaller.  Mr. Gittings said what I was afraid to say, and that is that the original reference image was natural light.  I agree.

>Also the window shadow has been eliminated making the shoot easier I think.

Much easier.  If you didn't have a window available, you'd have to build one.  A set piece.

>What is going to create a "better" shadow or smaller light source?

I can't comment on your specific flash use since I have virtually no experience with flash as a set light.   A bare tube I imagine would produce harder shadows than a reflected unit.  The smaller the apparent size of the source (as viewed from the subject) the sharper the shadows.

Notes on terminology.  

A "flag" is a device to remove light from a part of the set - usually black fabric rectangles on frames that mount in C-stands.  Also large drapes hung in the set or stretched on very large frames.  

A "gobo" is any device placed in front of a light to create a lighting effect.  A flag used to create a small bar of shadow on the set would be more accurately called a gobo, since it's creating an effect, rather than removing light from, say, the ceiling or the camera.  The shadow-casting branches in the reference images are gobos. Gobos are sometimes called "breakups", because they break up shadow patterns.

A "scrim" is usually used in movie work to lower the level of light without greatly altering its character.  It can also be used as a large scale lens filter when the camera photographs through the scrim to the set.  It's usually a featureless screen material like a screen door.  It can be black,  white, or coloured.

I believe that a scrim that consisted of a lace pattern that cast lacy shadows on a set would correctly be termed a gobo, and not a "scrim" since its task was to create shadows, not reduce light levels.

I could also be full of it. : )

[Hans_de_Kort]

I guess Flash would be out of the picture them?

Don't forget the Profoto Fresnelspot.
It is a Arri customized by Profoto.

[Chris Gahran]

In my experience, the best method for projecting a pattern on a set is to use a collimated optical device  that can use 4 inch patterns.  Fresnels throw the light but they don't act as a projector.  

It appears the Profoto Zoom Spot can handle the 4 inch patterns but the copy doesn't expressly say it can.
Profoto Zoom Spot

Continuous light solution: Source Four

Chris Gahran

Don't forget the Profoto Fresnelspot.
It is a Arri customized by Profoto.

[Hans_de_Kort]

Hey guys was wondering if you all could give me some suggestions about achieving this look the best way possible.
Lighting wise that is:
[attachment=11266:Picture_1.jpg]
Plan on shooting in studio and need to similate the window also.
I figure and HMI spot like would be best but what would be the best way to similate this with flash if possible. If you notice it has no round fresnel type fall off on the images.
Thanks for any suggestions.
Snook
Curios about distant of light to branches and window frame...

Thanks

PS. Not interested in copying the image. Just wonder about shadow effect.

It is a flashhead (double shadows) outside a building behind a tree, flashing into the room, you will have nicer shadows with a fresnel spot.

[Kirk Gittings]

It is a flashhead (double shadows) outside a building behind a tree, flashing into the room, you will have nicer shadows with a fresnel spot.

You know looking at this detail, I think I was wrong about it being natural light and you may be right. This looks like maybe an 8" reflector???

[Snook]

Hey guys thanks for all the nice suggestions, I really appreciate it..
I will definitely post some of the images when I do it.
Thanks
Snook

[Dansk]

I bought a speedo 4800ws pack with the big mono head ( dont know the model# we just call it the sun gun ) for these types of uses. The color temps are a bit whacky on it now its old as moses I'd guess 15 yrs? Regardless it was cheap and works great when I need to overdrive my other heads for this sunlight effect and so long as its at the upper end of exposure limits the color temp issues are not present. Used it many times when trying to fake outdoor hardlight when I'm indoors like a backyard BBQ patio set with models we did in the middle of winter last year indoors. No one could tell it wasn't outdoors so it saved my bacon there.

A bit late now so I'm not sure if this info will help you at all Snook but I'm still guessing its a cone reflector on a powerful strobe/flash/whatever at around those distances I posted earlier. I dont use those fresnels much so I dont know either way there. Anyways

Sounds like your on a good path I'm sure it'll work out fine. Kind of curious to see the final shot and what it took. This is a great board for sharing these kinds of issues and ideas though

[wollom]

Hey Wollom, Thank for the reply..
I know what the terms mean and where I live unfortunelty there not too many options.

[attachment=11428:Picture_3.png]

Hey Snook, I was a bit hesitant posting definitions, we are all from different parts of the world and with moving and still image backgrounds, lots of variation in use of terms.  I was thinking that there are folk here who come to learn and might be confused; the terms overlap somewhat and there was a post suggesting using a scrim.  I used to think of a scrim as a wire mesh ND for lights but worked with someone who called a coarse fabric 'silk' a 'scrim'.  My point was really that you'll be using flags, gobos and cookies, not scrims.

Can't wait to see the result.

Cheers

Wollom

[Snook]

Well shoot is tomorrow...
The art drector called me this week and said she wanted me to do it with a projector.??
So I found the biggest strongest projector I could and will try it out tomorrow.
If not then it's the Profoto 7A.
Will post some examples afterwards. The jobs is until next wednesday...:+]
Thanks all the suggestions

Snook

[Yanick Dery]

Well shoot is tomorrow...
The art drector called me this week and said she wanted me to do it with a projector.??
So I found the biggest strongest projector I could and will try it out tomorrow.
If not then it's the Profoto 7A.
Will post some examples afterwards. The jobs is until next wednesday...:+]
Thanks all the suggestions

Snook

Hi Snook,

On a job like this, why don't you plan one pre-light day in your contract?

I am curious to see the result.



Yanick
http://www.yanickdery.com

[Snook]

Hi Snook,

On a job like this, why don't you plan one pre-light day in your contract?

I am curious to see the result.



Yanick
http://www.yanickdery.com

Well we tried it and to me it looked great..
But the client chickened out afraid the clothing would not be seen well enough???
They were afraid that if they did not like it they could not get rid of the pattern or image on the clothing that was projected!!
Also the Person was an actress that did not have the best skin so the light was not flattering...:+]
I try and post the images, My stupid assistant threw out the trials!!!! ARGGGGGGGGG!
Have another session today..
Snook

[denoise]

Well we tried it and to me it looked great..
But the client chickened out afraid the clothing would not be seen well enough???
They were afraid that if they did not like it they could not get rid of the pattern or image on the clothing that was projected!!
Also the Person was an actress that did not have the best skin so the light was not flattering...:+]
I try and post the images, My stupid assistant threw out the trials!!!! ARGGGGGGGGG!
Have another session today..
Snook

Hi Snook, can you post some results ?

thanks