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Easton

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My Mamiya ZD Experience (very lengthy...)
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2009, 05:05:32 am »

Thanks everyone.

Yeah - the 5D Mark II will replace my 1Ds Mark II, and I think they'll be a narrow gap (or no gap at all!) between that and an Aptus 22.

I would like to use the Canon system for my editorial (bread and butter) work, and MFDB system for my personal work and commercial work where I'm in no rush to shoot by the hip.

Besides the horrendous issues, I am really enjoying the MFDB experience. I had a pretty gadgetry upbringing (Like a lot of new photographers these days, I have never touched film before, and I got into photography after the whole transition thing) and the feel and use of MFDB's is somehow inspiring me to go out and shoot more, work harder, and think more before I shoot. I guess thats just a weird thing going on in my deluded mine.



Based on the responses in this thread I think it's pretty clear now that my ZD is a lemon.

I'm going to forward the images to Mamiya Japan to confirm to my local dealer that the back is indeed buggered and ask for a replacement ZD back.

Then.. if they're willing to trade that new replacement back in, I will opt for a Phase One as it's the only other brand back they distribute at that store. And pay the cost difference.

If they won't trade it back (or the cost difference is unfair) - I will ebay the replacement ZD back and with that cash look towards other options.

The store i'm dealing with is the Australian Phase One/Mamiya dealer, if they don't look after me with this ZD issue than I can look at the "other" store which distributes Sinar and Leaf.

That is, the brand back I go with may end up being decided by the support of the dealer more than anything else. As far as I can tell (with the exception of the ZD) All the other brands will be far more reliable.

Easton-
« Last Edit: January 24, 2009, 05:08:43 am by Easton »
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andershald

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« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2009, 05:28:37 am »

Hi Easton.

I know you are young and money is tight, but I think there is one important factor you should include when you choose gear.

Commercial clients are far harder to come by than money to buy equipment. It's a common mistake to make early in the career, buy equipment too cheap and consequently fail to deliver what the client is looking for. If the client is let down, they surely won't come back. Furthermore you need that successful first job to show to the next potential client.

Failure to deliver quality work will constantly send you back to zero, quality work will move your career forward. It only takes a few good clients and the cost of equipment becomes (virtually) irrelevant, as the clients and you career is easily worth the expense.

I know it's a catch 22 to get started, but I think that renting equipment or buying second hand, to get you going is a good way. Then as soon as you have a few paying clients, sink the salaries into upgrading you equipment. Buy only the most essential equipment and rent the bits you only need occasionally.

Car photography is a potentially very lucrative market, but also one where the clients are extremely aware of the technical quality of the work.

Going with a Phase One sounds like a good idea. I have owned one for 6 months and not had a problem or needed service, but I hear it is good if you should be unfortunate enough to need it.

Good luck.

Anders
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michele

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« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2009, 08:42:16 am »

Easton, during the last year I did retouching for several photographers, they use Canon and Nikon, all top line cameras... I was convinced that between a Canon 1Ds mark III and a digital back wih 22 megapixels there weren't many differences... Now I'm entering in the business also as photographer and have been using a P45+ since the end of december. A new world, it's not just more pixels, beyond 22 megapixels it simply doesn't metter for my photos (i make many composities in photoshop), all the struggle I was forced on with photoshop now it's over, it all seem to be so easy.. almost no more sharpening mask to get a sharp image, so much deepness in the shadows and so much details in the lights.. Now when I use some curves and other stuff for adding colors I see much more smoothness, the selections are better because there is no blur to deal with... I saw you are pretty good with postproduction, You know what I mean... If you need just a purely shot, maybe a ZD it's ok, also a Canon or a Nikon are ok, but when you use a phase file... I'm sure also Leaf and sinar and Hasselblad are very good, I can only speak for Phase, was the only sistem I could afford; oh try the 5 backs with 30 seconds exposure.... tell me which is the winner. Of course all of us have his own style and needs, I use always 50ISO I don't care about 5 fps shutter I need 1 minut clean exposure....
Good luck

billthecat

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« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2009, 08:45:15 am »

I have a 5D2 and it is pretty neat but the ZD files have something special about them that I don't get from the 5D2. The Aptus might be better but I think you'll get a similar feeling with it compared to the ZD, at least a working ZD. But it is all subjective of course. And I always use ISO 50 on the ZD.

Bill

Quote from: Easton
Yeah - the 5D Mark II will replace my 1Ds Mark II, and I think they'll be a narrow gap (or no gap at all!) between that and an Aptus 22.
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Guy Mancuso

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My Mamiya ZD Experience (very lengthy...)
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2009, 08:54:09 am »

Quote from: Easton
Thanks everyone.

Yeah - the 5D Mark II will replace my 1Ds Mark II, and I think they'll be a narrow gap (or no gap at all!) between that and an Aptus 22.

I would like to use the Canon system for my editorial (bread and butter) work, and MFDB system for my personal work and commercial work where I'm in no rush to shoot by the hip.

Besides the horrendous issues, I am really enjoying the MFDB experience. I had a pretty gadgetry upbringing (Like a lot of new photographers these days, I have never touched film before, and I got into photography after the whole transition thing) and the feel and use of MFDB's is somehow inspiring me to go out and shoot more, work harder, and think more before I shoot. I guess thats just a weird thing going on in my deluded mine.



Based on the responses in this thread I think it's pretty clear now that my ZD is a lemon.

I'm going to forward the images to Mamiya Japan to confirm to my local dealer that the back is indeed buggered and ask for a replacement ZD back.

Then.. if they're willing to trade that new replacement back in, I will opt for a Phase One as it's the only other brand back they distribute at that store. And pay the cost difference.

If they won't trade it back (or the cost difference is unfair) - I will ebay the replacement ZD back and with that cash look towards other options.

The store i'm dealing with is the Australian Phase One/Mamiya dealer, if they don't look after me with this ZD issue than I can look at the "other" store which distributes Sinar and Leaf.

That is, the brand back I go with may end up being decided by the support of the dealer more than anything else. As far as I can tell (with the exception of the ZD) All the other brands will be far more reliable.

Easton-


Seems like with this dealer you may have two choices to go since they sell Phase and Mamiya you already have the AFDIII which Phase and Mamiya package together anyway. You may be able to do what Josh did on the Mac side and simple exchange for the DL28 which looks to be a nice back from leaf or step up to a Phase back. You may in this process be able to snag a demo or refurbished unit and save some money also. Your best bet is work with your dealer and see what he can or cannot do, obviously this all depends on warranty and owner time and all that but I would start there than if that does not work out than go after the OEM for a solution. Seems if under warranty the worst case is they will replace the back or fix it and than you can sell it. That seems like the worst case and the best the ability to simply move up. The common theme here is the ZD is good but given your usage not good enough for commercial work and that was what led me also to move up. Remember these backs can last a long time if you get one that get's it done than your return will be there.
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Dustbak

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« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2009, 09:01:44 am »

Quote from: michele
Easton, during the last year I did retouching for several photographers, they use Canon and Nikon, all top line cameras... I was convinced that between a Canon 1Ds mark III and a digital back wih 22 megapixels there weren't many differences... Now I'm entering in the business also as photographer and have been using a P45+ since the end of december. A new world, it's not just more pixels, beyond 22 megapixels it simply doesn't metter for my photos (i make many composities in photoshop), all the struggle I was forced on with photoshop now it's over, it all seem to be so easy.. almost no more sharpening mask to get a sharp image, so much deepness in the shadows and so much details in the lights.. Now when I use some curves and other stuff for adding colors I see much more smoothness, the selections are better because there is no blur to deal with... I saw you are pretty good with postproduction, You know what I mean... If you need just a purely shot, maybe a ZD it's ok, also a Canon or a Nikon are ok, but when you use a phase file... I'm sure also Leaf and sinar and Hasselblad are very good, I can only speak for Phase, was the only sistem I could afford; oh try the 5 backs with 30 seconds exposure.... tell me which is the winner. Of course all of us have his own style and needs, I use always 50ISO I don't care about 5 fps shutter I need 1 minut clean exposure....
Good luck


Euh... who are you and what did you do with Michele?  I still remember you as very sceptical about the usefulness of MFDB or even the differences between MFDB and 35mm.

Some excellent points from several people. The last thing you want during a shoot is not being able to rely upon your equipment. Even having doubts can distract you from being focussed to what really counts, getting the necessary shots.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2009, 09:03:46 am by Dustbak »
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Easton

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My Mamiya ZD Experience (very lengthy...)
« Reply #26 on: January 24, 2009, 09:05:45 am »

Yea I always shoot ISO 50 on the ZD, in fact I don't think i've ever shot above ISO 50 except during photographic tests. The way I saw it was that when you spend and compromise so much for quality, why throw it all away shooting at a higher ISO, use cheap glass or cheap filters in front of it.

Bill do you think the difference between the ZD and the 5D2 then might be the AA filter?

michele I do sort of know what you mean about the files. I do all of my own post production work as well and it's important to have a file that makes a good input for post production, and the ZD files do make a better starting point than my Canon 1Ds Mark II files. Detail seems to be retrieved a lot more easily and (seemingly) without the consequence of noise. Highlights come back well and the images are naturally sharp straight out the camera.

I don't feel like I need larger than 22 megapixel files, but the noiseless shadows and dynamic range is really important as I push my images to the limit in post.

I also don't care about 5fps frame rates, as thats the job of the Canon. But I do find myself using longer and longer exposures lately (30 seconds) and the ZD hates it.

Of course like you've all said - the most important thing at the end of the day is the back's reliability. It's useless if I don't have faith in it.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2009, 09:14:41 am by Easton »
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Easton

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« Reply #27 on: January 24, 2009, 09:10:20 am »

Quote from: Guy Mancuso
Seems like with this dealer you may have two choices to go since they sell Phase and Mamiya you already have the AFDIII which Phase and Mamiya package together anyway. You may be able to do what Josh did on the Mac side and simple exchange for the DL28 which looks to be a nice back from leaf or step up to a Phase back. You may in this process be able to snag a demo or refurbished unit and save some money also. Your best bet is work with your dealer and see what he can or cannot do, obviously this all depends on warranty and owner time and all that but I would start there than if that does not work out than go after the OEM for a solution. Seems if under warranty the worst case is they will replace the back or fix it and than you can sell it. That seems like the worst case and the best the ability to simply move up. The common theme here is the ZD is good but given your usage not good enough for commercial work and that was what led me also to move up. Remember these backs can last a long time if you get one that get's it done than your return will be there.

I agree Guy, your post sums it up completely. Except I'm not sure if they can sell me the DL28 as it's Leaf (unless they can acquire it since they're Mamiya also?) and I thought the DL28 was exclusive to the USA?

But yes worst case scenario they should replace it with a new back in which case i'd sell it off. And use the dosh to buy another brand.

I would so love an Aptus II-6.  The price is right and I wish it was available when I was MFDB shopping 6 months ago. But back then (at least here in Oz) there were very few affordable choices compared to whats available now.

Today (even looking just at Leaf and Phase One, which i've researched into the most so far) there are very affordable refurbished P's and the P21+. As well as refurbished Aptus's and the the new Aptus II-6.

My Mamiya is indeed still under warranty as I have only owned it for 6 months.

I also dislike how in Australia we basically only have one dealer for each of the brands, you simply can't shop around. Whereas in the USA it's a different story!
« Last Edit: January 24, 2009, 09:23:25 am by Easton »
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michele

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« Reply #28 on: January 24, 2009, 09:16:40 am »

Dustback... ehm, are you sure you are not mestaking? I mean, I have posted very little and few comments in those last 5 months, just asking for experiences on MFDB and maybe giving advices to someone, because I was searching informations due the possibility of buying a bac... How can you remember me?  by the way, I have always been entusiastic about MDFB...

Dustbak

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« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2009, 09:24:36 am »

Quote from: michele
Dustback... ehm, are you sure you are not mestaking? I mean, I have posted very little and few comments in those last 5 months, just asking for experiences on MFDB and maybe giving advices to someone, because I was searching informations due the possibility of buying a bac... How can you remember me?  by the way, I have always been entusiastic about MDFB...


Ok, I thought it was you but I might be mistaken ofcourse. I do remember a lot but my memory isn't what it used to be 10 years ago, I do admit that. Sorry about that  
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michele

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« Reply #30 on: January 24, 2009, 09:41:00 am »

Quote from: Dustbak
Ok, I thought it was you but I might be mistaken ofcourse. I do remember a lot but my memory isn't what it used to be 10 years ago, I do admit that. Sorry about that  

Oh no problem  in this forum we are more then 50.000 members... I respect many of the photographers that post here, and of course you are one of them
My best
Michele

Guy Mancuso

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« Reply #31 on: January 24, 2009, 10:12:07 am »

Quote from: Easton
I agree Guy, your post sums it up completely. Except I'm not sure if they can sell me the DL28 as it's Leaf (unless they can acquire it since they're Mamiya also?) and I thought the DL28 was exclusive to the USA?

But yes worst case scenario they should replace it with a new back in which case i'd sell it off. And use the dosh to buy another brand.

I would so love an Aptus II-6.  The price is right and I wish it was available when I was MFDB shopping 6 months ago. But back then (at least here in Oz) there were very few affordable choices compared to whats available now.

Today (even looking just at Leaf and Phase One, which i've researched into the most so far) there are very affordable refurbished P's and the P21+. As well as refurbished Aptus's and the the new Aptus II-6.

My Mamiya is indeed still under warranty as I have only owned it for 6 months.

I also dislike how in Australia we basically only have one dealer for each of the brands, you simply can't shop around. Whereas in the USA it's a different story!


Yes the DL28 maybe only a USA option , that I am not sure of and it comes from the MAC group as Josh was able to do that with them. I have the P25 plus which is a 22mpx back and seriously after testing it against the P45 and the new p65 plus i am right in there with the big boys. To me it is the jump over the 35mm curve that counts and in MF 22 mpx is plenty as many folks here shoot in this range. I would if you can is try the Leaf software and C1 and as a big part of the process , software is very important and if you dislike one than it will just make your life not much fun at all. So test them out and see what fits your workflow the best. I like C1 myself since I have been using it since the 1ds came out and that was a big part of my decision. I am pretty sure you can download the Leaf software to try , I know C1 has a 30 trial period that I think still exists today. Have to look into that but try things out and see what direction makes the most sense for you.
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billthecat

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« Reply #32 on: January 24, 2009, 10:33:30 am »

I think that the AA filter has good bit to do with image quality, that might be one reason people like that little Leica. Also the large sensor. And there is better color quality in the Dalsa sensor. And the lack of micro lenses. Anyway, the list goes on and I don't know as much as other people.

Have you seen Frank's site? He has used the ZD and now uses the Aptus 22 and is an expert in image quality and very helpful.
http://www.doorhof.nl/blog/index.php

Bill
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ivan muller

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« Reply #33 on: January 25, 2009, 11:35:51 am »

Hi  Easton,

I would suggest that you only buy equipment when you have a job for it. I am sure that car shoots must have a pretty high price tag! so when you get your next big shoot, hire or buy what you need for that shoot. I am sorry to hear about your ZD troubles. I have had my zd camera since they were launched(May 2007) and have not had a day's trouble. For the price I paid it was a great investment. Am busy shooting an annual report right now. Size of pics about A5 max. So to keep my bill reasonable I am using a 450d and I bought a 50mm 1.8 to do the portraits with (crappy build quality but outstanding quality). I have wanted a 50mm lens for portraits for a while but I waited till a biggish portrait job came around that would paid for it. Shots look great and, on that size zd (or anything else) will have made little difference! In the meantime your ZD(when its fixed) is a great route(and cheap) to build onto your portfolio and put some money in your pocket instead of the manufacturers!
Regards, Ivan
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Easton

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« Reply #34 on: February 23, 2009, 09:53:29 pm »

I hate bumping threads but I figured this update is pretty important.

Mamiya confirmed the issues and replaced my back with a new one. They even tested it very carefully before sending it back to Australia. No more lemons!

I haven't picked it up from the dealer yet but this back is still going to go on ebay, as a new back with warranty remaining - because i'd like to upgrade now to a Phase One, Leaf or Sinar
« Last Edit: February 23, 2009, 09:54:59 pm by Easton »
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Guy Mancuso

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« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2009, 10:40:54 pm »

That is good news that Mamiya replaced it. Good luck on your next back
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JDBFreeheel

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« Reply #36 on: February 24, 2009, 01:14:10 am »

Quote from: Easton
I hate bumping threads but I figured this update is pretty important.

Mamiya confirmed the issues and replaced my back with a new one. They even tested it very carefully before sending it back to Australia. No more lemons!

I haven't picked it up from the dealer yet but this back is still going to go on ebay, as a new back with warranty remaining - because i'd like to upgrade now to a Phase One, Leaf or Sinar

Congrats on working things out. That 22mp sensor can create some great images...Good luck on the upgrade.  Lot's of folks here (users, pros, and dealers) who seem to be honest and can provide good advice.  Love my Leaf Aptus II 6, many users love their PhaseOne, Sinar, and Hasselblad backs too.  With the economy the way it is, dealers might be able to provide you with a good deal in order to get you into their system.  Enjoy.
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dwdmguy

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« Reply #37 on: February 24, 2009, 10:38:01 pm »

I feel your pain.
I had to sent the DL28 back to mamiya after one week. The Leaf back was fine. The mamiya was riddled with issues from super slow shutter lag to locking up every 1/2 hour to an hour.
It seems that their QA leaves little to be desired.

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