My Mamiya ZD Experience (very lengthy...)

[Easton]

Hi!

This forum is where the big pros in the industry seem to conglomerate. I'm hoping you could help a newbie out!

I have read most of the past ZD threads, and some of our issues seem to be quite common (or at least similar).

My finances are tight (i'm 25 so i'm obviously very poor!) and i'm dealing with gear that is worth a fortune to me. So I want to deal with this as carefully and armed with as much knowledge as possible.


And here begins the ZD dilemmas - bare in mind that ALL of these issues occurred within a ONE WEEK shoot!:

- Corrupt CF-Write Issues

This occurs maybe once every 100 exposures. The camera would take the shot and the back would write to the card (red light on) indefinitely (red light never goes off). It will continue writing to the card (and thus not allow further pictures to be taken) for another half hour or so until the battery is completely drained and the back goes off.

Once this happens replacing a new battery will restart the camera and it's ready to take more shots.... however the last file looks like this:



A relatively minor issue I can maybe live with - because you know it's rooted and you can therefore take action.

- Weird Purple Lines coming out from the left side of highlights



This occurs very frequently, in fact I'd say it happens more often than not. You think the 5D Mark II black dot issue was bad? This is a complete nightmare! I had to retouch them out before delivering the images to my client.

- Purple Fringes/blooms coming out of the sky

This seems related to the previous issue, again it's coming out towards the left of the highlights.... or is it really bad CA?



shutter speed was 1/4 second.

- And I don't even know what to call this one...



Pretty self explanatory, the image just comes out in black and white... and purple (gee, this camera loves purple don't it)

The ENTIRE series of images shot for those setup came out like this. But the shutter speed was long (around 10seconds at ISO 50) but I have NOT been able to repeat this since.

- There is also an issue where the two (body and back) seem to fail to communicate randomly. I happens relatively frequently (at least a few times whenever I take the camera out for some shots) and the back would be awake and ready but the body would complain that the dback isn't ready.

Although it's a simple solution (just open the battery compartment and reclose it, then reset the camera body) it's been the MOST pain in the arse issue of them all.

For one of the shots we rigged the camera up to the car, and the driver was going to do some high speed drift/oversteering around a corner. I pocket wizard'ed up the camera and always tested it.

It happened on MANY occasions where the camera simply wouldn't fire at the heavy-choreographed setup. Piss off the driver ("Sorry - could you do that again? Didn't get the shot") and simply embaressing.



This all happened on my FIRST commercial photoshoot. Although the shoot went undeniably well and the client was ecstatic. The results do not reflect the challenges I had to face during that week.

I was so glad that I brought my Canon 1Ds Mark II along, it worked flawlessly without failure, and thats why the "action rig shots" were then taken with the Canon from then on.


Now the questions:

1: Are these issues built into the ZD design, and i'm expected live with them. Or do I have a lemon?

2: In my situation what would you do? Ask for a new ZD back (although if they did it'd be replaced with a double buffer version, because mine is not)? Ask a Phase One (or other brand) back and then you cover the cost difference? Would that be fair to ask, and what if they won't?

I am considering an upgrade to a Phase One back, even something as simple as a refurbished P21. I'm satisfied with the ZD's image quality but it's the reliability that i'm struggling with.

I have shown these problems to the dealer where I purchased the equipment from (Mamiya AFDIII + ZD + 80mm kit) and I have supplied them a CD of these RAW files for them to inspect. They've told me that they're evaluating the problems and looking for solutions.

I'll be honest - I want a different back!! (Sorry if that sounds childish!)

They are a Mamiya/Phase One dealer, if they won't help me, then I would resort to going to another dealer and looking into a Leaf Aptus refurbished. Unfortunately in Australia we are very short on options with dealers to go to.

3: Are these issues exclusive to the Mamiya, or will they be found in other brand backs as well? i.e if I want reliability - leave MFDB's

4: Is it wrong for me to think that, considering this is designed for high-end paid professional photography, that this is gobsmackingly unacceptable?

I should also note that this is my SECOND ZD back, I had it swapped with a replacement within a week after I purchased the system as there were OTHER problems with that back. I don't know if that back would have these issues as well because I didn't even test it far or long enough to find out!


I am not complaining about the slow buffer, frame rate or LCD screen. I knew what I was getting into when purchasing this back, but i wasn't expecting these reliability issues.

*Also, if there's something i've said/done/asked thats stupid - please pardon my newbie-ness!

THANKS for your help in advance. I'm sorry the thread is so long but you can probably tell i'm very concerned at the moment!

[dwdmguy]

May I please ask if you are using a UV filter?

tom

Hi!

This forum is where the big pros in the industry seem to conglomerate. I'm hoping you could help a newbie out!

I have read most of the past ZD threads, and some of our issues seem to be quite common (or at least similar).

My finances are tight (i'm 25 so i'm obviously very poor!) and i'm dealing with gear that is worth a fortune to me. So I want to deal with this as carefully and armed with as much knowledge as possible.


And here begins the ZD dilemmas - bare in mind that ALL of these issues occurred within a ONE WEEK shoot!:

- Corrupt CF-Write Issues

This occurs maybe once every 100 exposures. The camera would take the shot and the back would write to the card (red light on) indefinitely (red light never goes off). It will continue writing to the card (and thus not allow further pictures to be taken) for another half hour or so until the battery is completely drained and the back goes off.

Once this happens replacing a new battery will restart the camera and it's ready to take more shots.... however the last file looks like this:



A relatively minor issue I can maybe live with - because you know it's rooted and you can therefore take action.

- Weird Purple Lines coming out from the left side of highlights



This occurs very frequently, in fact I'd say it happens more often than not. You think the 5D Mark II black dot issue was bad? This is a complete nightmare! I had to retouch them out before delivering the images to my client.

- Purple Fringes/blooms coming out of the sky

This seems related to the previous issue, again it's coming out towards the left of the highlights.... or is it really bad CA?



shutter speed was 1/4 second.

- And I don't even know what to call this one...



Pretty self explanatory, the image just comes out in black and white... and purple (gee, this camera loves purple don't it)

The ENTIRE series of images shot for those setup came out like this. But the shutter speed was long (around 10seconds at ISO 50) but I have NOT been able to repeat this since.

- There is also an issue where the two (body and back) seem to fail to communicate randomly. I happens relatively frequently (at least a few times whenever I take the camera out for some shots) and the back would be awake and ready but the body would complain that the dback isn't ready.

Although it's a simple solution (just open the battery compartment and reclose it, then reset the camera body) it's been the MOST pain in the arse issue of them all.

For one of the shots we rigged the camera up to the car, and the driver was going to do some high speed drift/oversteering around a corner. I pocket wizard'ed up the camera and always tested it.

It happened on MANY occasions where the camera simply wouldn't fire at the heavy-choreographed setup. Piss off the driver ("Sorry - could you do that again? Didn't get the shot") and simply embaressing.



This all happened on my FIRST commercial photoshoot. Although the shoot went undeniably well and the client was ecstatic. The results do not reflect the challenges I had to face during that week.

I was so glad that I brought my Canon 1Ds Mark II along, it worked flawlessly without failure, and thats why the "action rig shots" were then taken with the Canon from then on.


Now the questions:

1: Are these issues built into the ZD design, and i'm expected live with them. Or do I have a lemon?

2: In my situation what would you do? Ask for a new ZD back (although if they did it'd be replaced with a double buffer version, because mine is not)? Ask a Phase One (or other brand) back and then you cover the cost difference? Would that be fair to ask, and what if they won't?

I am considering an upgrade to a Phase One back, even something as simple as a refurbished P21. I'm satisfied with the ZD's image quality but it's the reliability that i'm struggling with.

I have shown these problems to the dealer where I purchased the equipment from (Mamiya AFDIII + ZD + 80mm kit) and I have supplied them a CD of these RAW files for them to inspect. They've told me that they're evaluating the problems and looking for solutions.

I'll be honest - I want a different back!! (Sorry if that sounds childish!)

They are a Mamiya/Phase One dealer, if they won't help me, then I would resort to going to another dealer and looking into a Leaf Aptus refurbished. Unfortunately in Australia we are very short on options with dealers to go to.

3: Are these issues exclusive to the Mamiya, or will they be found in other brand backs as well? i.e if I want reliability - leave MFDB's

4: Is it wrong for me to think that, considering this is designed for high-end paid professional photography, that this is gobsmackingly unacceptable?

I should also note that this is my SECOND ZD back, I had it swapped with a replacement within a week after I purchased the system as there were OTHER problems with that back. I don't know if that back would have these issues as well because I didn't even test it far or long enough to find out!


I am not complaining about the slow buffer, frame rate or LCD screen. I knew what I was getting into when purchasing this back, but i wasn't expecting these reliability issues.

*Also, if there's something i've said/done/asked thats stupid - please pardon my newbie-ness!

THANKS for your help in advance. I'm sorry the thread is so long but you can probably tell i'm very concerned at the moment!

[Carsten W]

May I please ask if you are using a UV filter?

Could I ask you *not* to quote a huge post, just to add one line? The context is just above...

[Easton]

May I please ask if you are using a UV filter?

tom

No UV filters, but some of the "motion" shots are using Neutral Density filters to cut sunlight. In particular the shot where it's just black/white/purple.

Polarizers may have been used.

The shot with the purple fringes near the sky, and the horizontal lines near the highlights though happen with/without any filters.

[Guy Mancuso]

Hard to really pinpoint what is exactly happening and I think most of us would guess at different issues and mostly likely be pretty close. But I had a Zd for  couple months before getting a Phase P25 plus and never ran into anything like this. It seems to me it is the electronics to the sensor itself that may have some sort of short or something, reason being there is no real consistency in the bad images and than you get good ones also. I would not play around with this and not sure who your dealer is on this but I would not be happy at all. Not sure of your circumstances on how long you had it or if it was new or used but i would first send some images to Mamiya and see if there is a known issue and than get your money back , get it fixed or move onto a Phase P21 Plus back. First the Phase will not give you battery issues and is much more durable in the field and frankly having one they just flat out work all the time. For commercial use i just would move up which is exactly what I did myself. At the end of the day the ZD is nice but also has some limitations and some of those reasons battery, ISO limits, speed , LCD and such are the very reasons i moved up myself and very happy with that decision. I have never lost a image due to the back or body itself and for commercial shooting you need that dependability. Simple answer find a way to move up , you will ultimately be happier in the end.

I should add some things could be a corrupt card but looking at all the issues i can't see it being everything here.

[billthecat]

I've had a ZD and AFDII almost a year and never had a purple problem. I see other people talk about a purple problem though. Out of thousands of shots I only had one or two corrupted ones.

On every camera I have I format the card in camera first. It helps with Canon, I don't know if it helps with ZD. The ZD won't give me an accurate shots remaining if I don't format in the camera.

I have a lot of lockups, perhaps one in a hundred without changing lenses or anything else. Sometimes it just goes away, sometimes I need to remove batteries. People wonder why I didn't take the picture when I should have. When I change lenses I remove the batteries.

I like to focus then recompose with a half press, if I wait too long before a full press the camera won't take the picture.

Bill

[stefan marquardt]

hi easton,

1: you defenately have a defective zd back.
2: I would certainly ask for a new back, or/and - if you can do it without loosing much money - move to a different brand. if you have to stay with mamiya, I would move at least to a zd camera (not the back) at least you don´t get the connection problems between back and the body you describt here.
3: I have never seen anything like this on my zd camera - it´s simply a defective unit and certainly not accceptable from any brand. make sure that back goes back to mamiya.

I am using a zd since over two years and apart from the slight frontfocus and the wobbely firewire-connection (I usualy don´t thether and never autofocus) it performed flawless during that time.
so i am quite happy with my zd and it´s image quality. I do find it to be overly sensitive to mix artificial light and the resulting green and magenta casts. and the 10-15 sec. exposure limits can be annoying.
just on my last commercial shoot yesterday I had to put the zd away because of the colorshifts and resort to my 5D (and suffer the consequences today at postprocessing the 5D-files.  )

from a different perspective: that first image looks quite cool, perhaps your back has artistic ambitions. I would consider to keep using the back and making those images my trademark  .

I wish you good luck dealing with your dealer and mamiya

stefan

[BJNY]

Hi!
This forum is where the big pros in the industry seem to conglomerate. I'm hoping you could help a newbie out!

Easton,

First, it's congregrate  

Search for Anders_HK posts for his experience with the ZD.

[thsinar]

isn't it "congregate", Billy?

Cheers,
Thierry

First, it's congregrate  

[BJNY]

 

You're correct, Thierry.

: Billy is forced to resign from Spelling Police in shame :

[michele]

Easton, go for PhaseOne, Like Guy said, just find the way to get a Phase back... I own a P45+ and I'm 24 years old... I don't have much money too, but I tested the two back side by side a Phase it's an other dimension, it's better from all points of view, it's not just the pixels or 1/3 stop more dynamic range, It's the structure, the built quality, the workflow, the long exposure and more more. The only problem I have is in the exif files, when I change the lens the back doesn't recognize the lens, it says 1mm lens or no lens, so every time I change the lens I have to chenage the mode in the camera, for exemple from M to P, then the back knows wich lens I'm using. But never, NEVER, problems like yours...
Did I say that I love my P45+?
my best

[michele]

I think any current owner of a back will say buy this buy that, and in some ways I am doing the same, but here's my simple take.

An Aptus 22 uses the same sensor and puts the ZD back to shame. My Aptus 22 has been flawless for a year and a half. Leaf Capture has helped to make it even a tiny bit better in tethering (already rock solid tethering).

You can find used Aptus 22 backs in H and Mamiya mounts almost several times a month here in the for sale section, ebay and other places. They can be had for somewhere in the $6-7K I'm sure. Basically what a ZD back costs and a hell of a lot better.

I know Mamiya has tried hard with the ZD but I don't see them continuing with newer versions and updates may taper off next few years for the current model.

If you're having this much trouble with the back, get something else for your client/paid work that is hassle free.

 my two cent

[PLLove]

my two cent

DITTO

[rcdurston]

I'm not going to tell you which back to buy. I will tell you what I feel the problem is though. I believe that most filter companies have been caught sleeping with digital. I know that ND and almost every polarizer I have ever tried has a colour cast and if used in conjunction they create wonky results. This image is a B&W polarizer and a Heliopan polarizer combined.

I know with my B&W 110 ND3.0 I get a weird magenta/yellow shift even though B&W swear the filter is neutral. I know years ago the old Kodak Wratten ND 3.0 was like 40y.
So I would think it is the non neutral filtration along with perhaps a first batch (bad magenta blotch) ZD back.
As far as the left trailing streak, I saw the same thing in a Hasselblad H3dII back a couple of months ago. When I told the rep about it and sent him the file he said it was a bad batch of AA filters and that they were about to swap them all out with new ones. So, maybe the AA filter on yours is also giving you grief.
Either way, I second everyone else and agree that no matter your age or how many jobs you have under your belt, if you want a replacement or your money back you should get it. Good luck.
Your images are great BTW
rob

[Easton]

Easton,

First, it's congregrate  

Search for Anders_HK posts for his experience with the ZD.

I knew I would have said something wrong!

It sounds like my ZD has a myriad of separate issues, electronic/sensor and built-in design faults. But you all seem to agree that I should be able to get a refund or an opportunity to trade up to another back.

michele, you have my dream back! But thanks for the words of confidence with the Phase One.

I don't think my dilemma is so much which brand to move to, as they all seem a heck more reliable than my ZD. It's just a matter of trading up with the minimal loss/cost as possible.


I bought the back brand new (part of the Mamiya AFDIII + 80mm kit) from my local authorized dealer.

I have owned the back for 6 months, I could not show these images/issues to the dealer earlier because the images/car/shoot was embargoed up until recently.

Thanks for all your help! I will write more soon but i've uploaded some more (RAW) samples of issues here:

http://www.eastonchang.com/zd/

The "purple fringing" off bright areas seem to happen at any shutter speed with any lens without any filters.

[Easton]

bill your experiences with the back sounds familiar to me as well, but it also seems to confirm I have a defective back.

I'm sorry if I haven't directly replied everyone as I'm on the run and posting on the mobile, but I wanted to thank everyone for their thoughts and feedback!

[mcfoto]

I had the ZD camera for 2.5 years & had very few problems with it  ( sold it last month). With the new 5DII camera coming out along with cameras from Sony & Nikon I felt the 22 mp MFD backs have a limited shelf life. The Aptus 22 is an excellent back though & has way better SW than the Mamiya. I just saw one on eBay today starting at $5000.00 USD.
Denis

[Guy Mancuso]

I knew I would have said something wrong!

It sounds like my ZD has a myriad of separate issues, electronic/sensor and built-in design faults. But you all seem to agree that I should be able to get a refund or an opportunity to trade up to another back.

michele, you have my dream back! But thanks for the words of confidence with the Phase One.

I don't think my dilemma is so much which brand to move to, as they all seem a heck more reliable than my ZD. It's just a matter of trading up with the minimal loss/cost as possible.


I bought the back brand new (part of the Mamiya AFDIII + 80mm kit) from my local authorized dealer.

I have owned the back for 6 months, I could not show these images/issues to the dealer earlier because the images/car/shoot was embargoed up until recently.

Thanks for all your help! I will write more soon but i've uploaded some more (RAW) samples of issues here:

http://www.eastonchang.com/zd/

The "purple fringing" off bright areas seem to happen at any shutter speed with any lens without any filters.

I really don't care which brand of back you buy as someone pointed that out but any above the level of the ZD will work and you did mention Phase p21 plus which is a good back and having a Mamiya body does make some sense but Leaf would also be a nice choice. The ZD is very nice but to me it is a entry level into MF and i did like it very much myself but after a month or so I realized as a working Pro the limitations of it was something I need to make a upgrade on. Good luck , hope this all works out .

[BernardLanguillier]

I used a ZD camera for 2 years before selling it recently in favour of a D3x (I still have my Mamiya lenses though).

I also was pleased with the ZD and never saw many of the issues you are describing, but I was mostyl shooting landascape.

I had some issues with corrupt cards, and could never really figure out why it happened, but I could identify some symptoms (like the image counts that stops changing,...) that enabled me to switch to another card as soon as it happened.

My current assessement of the D3x is that its image quality is superior in absolute terms to that of the ZD (detail, colors, DR and above all lack of artifacts). I am of course not speaking about the other aspects, because the D3x is so incredibly superior that the comparison doesn't even make sense.

Franckly speaking, I would not invest in MF these days on anothing with less than 39MP.

Cheers,
Bernard

[JDBFreeheel]

I knew I would have said something wrong!

It sounds like my ZD has a myriad of separate issues, electronic/sensor and built-in design faults. But you all seem to agree that I should be able to get a refund or an opportunity to trade up to another back.

michele, you have my dream back! But thanks for the words of confidence with the Phase One.

I don't think my dilemma is so much which brand to move to, as they all seem a heck more reliable than my ZD. It's just a matter of trading up with the minimal loss/cost as possible.


I bought the back brand new (part of the Mamiya AFDIII + 80mm kit) from my local authorized dealer.

I have owned the back for 6 months, I could not show these images/issues to the dealer earlier because the images/car/shoot was embargoed up until recently.

Thanks for all your help! I will write more soon but i've uploaded some more (RAW) samples of issues here:

http://www.eastonchang.com/zd/

The "purple fringing" off bright areas seem to happen at any shutter speed with any lens without any filters.

As I've posted before, I've gone through my share of issues with the ZD back.  I loved it, when it worked.  The files coming out of it were amazing.  And then other times, they were just awful.  Additionally, my first ZD back had am electronics issue.  Long story short, I was able to work directly with MAC Group US (distributor of Mamiya in US) to exchange my first back for a replacement.  When that second ZD back started exhibiting poor behavior as well, I pushed the issue, got a service manager involved and they helped me upgrade to the new DL28 setup (AFD III and Leaf Aptus II 6 Digital Back). It cost me a bit more but they were very attentive to my issues and cut me a very solid deal.

So, I'd say get in touch (or have your dealer do it) with MAC Group and push, push, push until you get a back you're happy with.  Truth be told, I think they'd all wish that the ZD didn't exist, as it sounds as though they get headaches just thinking about them too.  

Good luck and keep us posted.

-Josh