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Author Topic: Traditional Film versus Modern Inkjet  (Read 4487 times)

JohnKoerner

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Traditional Film versus Modern Inkjet
« on: January 12, 2009, 07:54:20 pm »

I am new to photography, and was wondering about many of these high $$ inkjet printers.

Do modern inkjet printers like the Epson Stylus Pro 7900/9900 really produce an end product that will last? I have been thinking about buying a nice printer, and was wondering how long are the images from such inkjet printers projected to last?

Do they last as long as a true photograph?

Thanks.
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DarkPenguin

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Traditional Film versus Modern Inkjet
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2009, 08:26:43 pm »

http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/
http://www.wilhelm-research.com/

Depends on the ink and paper and how you display and store the prints.

I was watching the Ctein interview on one of the LuLa video journals the other day.  He indicated that dye transfer prints (a 100 y/o process) are like 30-40 years displayed and centuries stored.

Edit:  I think prints produced by my B9180 are supposed to have something like a 200 year life span according to Wilhelm.  I kind of doubt that but the lifespan is going to be good.  My old 1280 dye prints would fade in no time.  I haven't noticed (<- important) any fading so far with my B9180.

Edit 2: Most of my prints from the 70's and 80's have pretty much faded to non existence.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2009, 08:30:57 pm by DarkPenguin »
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Mussi_Spectraflow

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Traditional Film versus Modern Inkjet
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2009, 08:43:02 pm »

Fuji Crystal Archive, probably the most common traditional color photo paper has a fad resistance of around 42 years as rated by wilhelm. Compare that to the HP Z3200 at over 100 years and Epson over 70 years for the low end of the scale and over 200 years for many papers. The only traditional photo process that matches these numbers are B/W fiber based prints that have been properly washed and fixed. For color work you would have to turn to dye transfer prints...beautiful, but not so practical. Long story short, according to the best info and experts on the subject good pigment inkjet prints should be extremely stable.
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JohnKoerner

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Traditional Film versus Modern Inkjet
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2009, 08:53:02 pm »

Thanks for the links and information!

So, if I saved my money and bought either of those two printers I listed (Epson Stylus Pro 7900 or 9900), and used either Epson or HP high-grade papers, the prints would have a realistic lifespan of between 70-100 years?

That seems more than reasonable.

PS: Thanks for the link to Wilhelm.
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MHMG

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Traditional Film versus Modern Inkjet
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2009, 09:11:27 pm »

Inkjet print media have made tremendous strides in the last few years. With appropriate inks and papers, lightfastness for pigmented inkjet is much superior to conventional silver halide color, and even the newest dye-based inkjet systems (e.g, the new Fuji DL 400 drylab prints, Epson Claria, Hp Vivera dye, etc) are now roughly comparable to the best silver halide color systems (i.e., Fuji Crystal Archive II), again depending on the correct matching of ink to paper.  Thermal aging is equal or better, and humidity fastness (for pigmented not dye based inkjet) is equal or better as well depending on binder.  Gas fade resistance, perhaps still less, but not too big a problem for pigmented inks. The last hurdle is physical properties. We just don't know enough about the coating integrity with regard to thermal and especially humidity cycling. Mismatches in humidity and thermal coefficients of expansion make coatings on paper or other supports susceptible to cracks and ultimately flaking and delamination. Seasonal humidity cycling stresses the coatings and ultimately leads to this cracking and delamination.  My gut hunch is that some inkjet media will be equal or better to traditional silver gelatin papers, others I know for a fact are worse. Physical properties of inkjet media is a whole new avenue of necessary research. The physical response of materials to environmental cycling was my specialty when I was working as a conservation research scientist at the Smithsonian Institution in Washington DC, and it is a topic I am keen on exploring with inkjet media as soon as time and funding permit.

Best regards,

Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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DarkPenguin

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Traditional Film versus Modern Inkjet
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2009, 09:22:24 pm »

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JohnKoerner

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Traditional Film versus Modern Inkjet
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2009, 09:25:41 pm »

Quote from: MHMG
Inkjet print media have made tremendous strides in the last few years. With appropriate inks and papers, lightfastness for pigmented inkjet is much superior to conventional silver halide color, and even the newest dye-based inkjet systems (e.g, the new Fuji DL 400 drylab prints, Epson Claria, Hp Vivera dye, etc) are now roughly comparable to the best silver halide color systems (i.e., Fuji Crystal Archive II), again depending on the correct matching of ink to paper.  Thermal aging is equal or better, and humidity fastness (for pigmented not dye based inkjet) is equal or better as well depending on binder.  Gas fade resistance, perhaps still less, but not too big a problem for pigmented inks. The last hurdle is physical properties. We just don't know enough about the coating integrity with regard to thermal and especially humidity cycling. Mismatches in humidity and thermal coefficients of expansion make coatings on paper or other supports susceptible to cracks and ultimately flaking and delamination. Seasonal humidity cycling stresses the coatings and ultimately leads to this cracking and delamination.  My gut hunch is that some inkjet media will be equal or better to traditional silver gelatin papers, others I know for a fact are worse. Physical properties of inkjet media is a whole new avenue of necessary research. The physical response of materials to environmental cycling was my specialty when I was working as a conservation research scientist at the Smithsonian Institution in Washington DC, and it is a topic I am keen on exploring with inkjet media as soon as time and funding permit.
Best regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com


Thank you so much for your time. I am in the process of reviewing your site now. Of interest in your statement above, you said, "depending on the correct matching of ink to paper."

Is there a chart or particular method where one may follow the correct protocol in matching ink to paper? I suppose this type of information might be included with the instructions of the above printers, but I was curious whether there are independent guidelines posted anywhere so that one might refer to them online?

Either way, thank you again, very much.

Jack
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Avalan

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« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2009, 02:20:03 am »

Hello Jack

It has been several years now that I have reprinted ALL of my favorite prints by pigment inkjet printers. These pictures were previously printed in traditional way by wet chemistry process. Now they are part of my printing history. The prints made by inkjets have surpassed the old ones on all aspects: color, detail, sharpness, and longevity.

Having said that, since you have mentioned to be new in this area, these are some hints that you may want to consider:

1-Regardless of what printer or paper you may chose, the file preparation is the backbone of any good print. If you are new to photography, your first step would be focusing on digital imaging than printing. Digital imaging includes all necessary steps to make a good digital file to print.

2-next step is understating and practicing “color management”. It needs lots of reading and research but it is a must to achieve a good print.

3- large format printers are meant for professional use. Regardless of how great they might be, you will not get benefit out of them before being familiar with above steps.
Actually will give a lot of stress, especially if you are not familiar with printers as well.

A medium format printer- lets say Epson 3800 or Canon 5100 - are great printers and more than enough to start.

Try “From camera to print”. This is a great resource:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/videos/camera-print.shtml

Also try “Mastering digital printing- second edition” by Harald Johnson. It needs an upgrade but still a great book.

Best regards

Avalan
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MHMG

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« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2009, 11:03:04 am »

Quote from: JohnKoerner
... Of interest in your statement above, you said, "depending on the correct matching of ink to paper."

Is there a chart or particular method where one may follow the correct protocol in matching ink to paper? I suppose this type of information might be included with the instructions of the above printers, but I was curious whether there are independent guidelines posted anywhere so that one might refer to them online?

I was mainly referring to the literal act of choosing which paper to print on, although the way the printer driver lays down the ink, especially its GCR pattern does have influence on longevity as well. GCR stands for "gray component replacement" in other words how the printer blends photo gray and black inks with colored inks mainly in the low chroma colors. And with the latest multi-colorant ink sets the GCR concept now extends to blending other colorants such as red (orange), blue (violet), and green inks for magenta, cyan, and yellow ink combinations. Lastly, add to the mix where the printer driver feathers out the light concentration inks and moves to the high concentration colorants, and you can see that the full color map of the printer driver can indeed influence print longevity.  That said, most photographers are using the OEM drivers these days rather than specialized RIPs as the OEM drivers have gotten quite good, so the influence of the driver on print longevity is largely a fixed variable once the photographer has chosen his/her printer. That leaves the printmaker with the clear and important choice on what paper to use, and knowing how compatible it is with the inks. Although it is well known that fade resistance of pigmented inks is much less influenced by paper chemistry than dye-based inks, the choice of paper can still influence the light fastness characteristics of the pigmented print by at least an order of magnitude, especially when looking at the earliest onset of detectable fading.

Within the next two weeks I will be introducing "Conservation Display" ratings for lightfastness on my website. The ratings will serve as an "executive summary" of the more comprehensive (and time-consuming to read) reports that I prepare on printer/ink/media lightfastness. They will summarize the early stages of fading where the prints still remain in very good to excellent condition (i.e., measurably faded but difficult to notice except in direct side-by-side comparison with an unfaded print and even then very subtle to observe). The conservation display ratings will therefore be different from typical consumer-oriented display ratings that attempt to predict the mid-to-late stages of fading where prints look noticeably and often objectionably faded. The broader tolerances used in the consumer-oriented test scores can also overlook critical factors in one's choice of paper.  For example, the tolerances are too loose to detect the role of optical brightener fading in early stage changes of image appearance, and they can also lead to misranking of product performance due to system non linearity in the visual progression of fade.  Hence, I think the conservation display rating concept will supplement today's consumer-focused print permanence ratings very nicely, especially for museum curators, conservators, and collectors that want guidance on safe exposure limits.

I will try to remember to post a notice on the LL forum when the first conservation display ratings become available on my site. Some scores will be for samples with public links and thus free of charge.

cheers,

Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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TylerB

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« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2009, 01:05:10 pm »

Mark, I just want to give my support and state my admiration for the work you are doing, and the level of knowledge and expertise you are bringing to these issues. Since our proven and time tested materials, good or bad but at least known, are rapidly being replaced with materials we still know little about, it's extremely important for the future of this medium we all love.
I think inks and papers are getting the R&D they deserve and are coming along, my concern remains focused on the coatings. Unfortunately these same coatings allow for some pretty gorgeous printing...
I for one will be continuing to follow your efforts.
Tyler
http://www.custom-digital.com/
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JohnKoerner

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« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2009, 03:05:36 pm »

Sound counsel Avalan, thanks.

I have been trying to order Michael's tutorial for the past 40 min now, and for some reason my debit card won't go through

Maybe I will just set up a Paypal account, but for the life of me I can't understand why my debit card won't work.  



>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>



Thanks once again Mark.

Part of the problem with being as green as I am is how loaded with information some of your work is. Since I do not have years of photographic/printing education under my belt, simple abbreviations that you (and many other authors) make actually throw me for a curve. I have to stop reading and try to figure out what the abbreviations mean before I can proceed. So thank you for taking the time to explain what "CGR" means, which is a perfect example. In your explaining of this simple abbreviation, you put a meaningful image of what it means in my mind, whereas (had you not) the abbreviation "CGR" would have meant nothing to me. I am still trying to figure out what RIP and OEM mean and how they apply qualitiatively to printing, and I am sure in time it will all make sense.

I have a girlfriend who is a graphic artist and who works for a printer, and she is going to help me understand all of this also. I have never thought about professional color printing until about 3 days ago, so it's not that I am a dullard (LOL), but sometimes abbreviated phrases that those "in the know" take for granted, for their own convenience of speech, are actually quite loaded with information themselves ... and so such abbreviations only serve well to the "enlightened" ... but in fact serve as stumbling blocks for the fresh fish

This reminds me of an example, I when I was breeding dogs, I'd (say) have a customer whose dog would have tick fever, and I'd tell him, "Get a CBC done and then give 100 mg of doxy, PO, BID for 2 weeks," and he'd be like, "Huh?" What I was telling him was to get a complete blood count, and give 100 milligrams of doxycycline, by mouth, twice a day, for two weeks ... but in abbreviating this message out of my own convenience, what I was doing was throwing this novice a roadblock to his understanding what he needed to do for his doggie

So, at this point. my reading of the vast amount of knowledge you have shared is coming a little awkwardly for now, but I have bookmarked it, and will be referring to it many, many times as I try to educate myself on the finer points of printing. I am sure between Michael's DVD and your invaluable research, I will be able to have a basic sense of direction in a few months.

So thank you again

Jack
« Last Edit: January 13, 2009, 03:07:57 pm by JohnKoerner »
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MHMG

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« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2009, 03:26:57 pm »

Quote from: TylerB
I think inks and papers are getting the R&D they deserve and are coming along, my concern remains focused on the coatings. Unfortunately these same coatings allow for some pretty gorgeous printing...
I for one will be continuing to follow your efforts.
Tyler
http://www.custom-digital.com/

Hi Tyler, I couldn't agree more! The coating technology fascinates me, and I intend to study it in more detail.

Thank you for your kind words of support.  My digital print research program needs a few thousand subscribers to be sustainable in the long run, or a different business model, or a miracle, whichever occurs first!  In this near depresssion economy a positive outcome is not a very safe bet, but I'm quietly confident I will get there somehow.

Best regards,

Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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MHMG

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« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2009, 03:54:56 pm »

Quote from: JohnKoerner
I am still trying to figure out what RIP and OEM mean and how they apply qualitiatively to printing, and I am sure in time it will all make sense.

I have a girlfriend who is a graphic artist and who works for a printer, and she is going to help me understand all of this also. I have never thought about professional color printing until about 3 days ago, so it's not that I am a dullard (LOL), but sometimes abbreviated phrases that those "in the know" take for granted, for their own convenience of speech, are actually quite loaded with information themselves ...
Jack

Oops, I know exactly what you mean. I had no idea what LOL meant for the longest time. Your are not alone!  

RIP stands for Raster Image processor.  In plainspeak, its a custom printer driver software, often with custom built-in capacity to do page layout of multiple image files efficiently and on a network where more than one person is sending print jobs. RIPS have also traditionally had special calibration features that give expert users control over the way the printers lay down color (ie. giving invidual inkjet nozzle/colorant control to the user). This was an important feature in earlier days of inkjet printing when the printer supplied software and calibration routines were not so good. Third party RIPs often produced better image quality results due not only to better color control but also superior dot pattern screening patterns. RIP manufacturers had the opportunity to perfect these issues while the printer manufacturers were busy trying to build better hardware!  But the whole industry has matured.  My advice today for a photographer just getting involved in inkjet printing- Don't even think about  a RIP. Just learn to use the driver that was supplied by the original equipment manufacturer (OEM.... yikes I just defined the second term you didn't know!)

OEM stands for Original equipment manufacturer as noted above.  For example, if you own an Epson printer and you are buying OEM ink you are buying ink manufactured by or at the very least re-branded by Epson. Inks purchased from other ink manufacturers besides the printer manufacturer are sometimes thus called "non OEM" inks.

Don't get discouraged. Digital photography and printmaking is based on very logical and common sense principles, but it does have a boat load of terminology, choices, and different pathways to similar end results!

Best regards,

Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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TylerB

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Traditional Film versus Modern Inkjet
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2009, 05:51:19 pm »

Quote from: MHMG
...My digital print research program needs a few thousand subscribers to be sustainable in the long run, or a different business model, or a miracle, whichever occurs first!  In this near depresssion economy a positive outcome is not a very safe bet, but I'm quietly confident I will get there somehow.

Best regards,

Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com


Ah!!! It's subscriber supported! I'm so sorry I neglected to notice. Also subject to this trash economy, I hope to subscribe soon.
I would advise anyone even marginally interested to look at the site and hopefully subscribe. We need more activity like this that is not primarily funded by the industry itself, but by the community.
Tyler
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JohnKoerner

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« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2009, 08:32:04 pm »

Quote from: MHMG
Hi Tyler, I couldn't agree more! The coating technology fascinates me, and I intend to study it in more detail.
Thank you for your kind words of support.  My digital print research program needs a few thousand subscribers to be sustainable in the long run, or a different business model, or a miracle, whichever occurs first!  In this near depresssion economy a positive outcome is not a very safe bet, but I'm quietly confident I will get there somehow.
Best regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

LOL, everyone wants a free lunch, that is sad, but that is true. Everyone thinks they should be able to send you some samples, have you spend dozens of hours of your time analyzing them, and then dozens more hours compiling your findings in writing so they can read "everything they wanted to know" at their convenience ... all for a "Thank you." (And in many cases not even one of those  )

I can empathize. I have written thousands of articles on dog breeding, disease-management, prevention, kenneling protocols, etc. ... all "for free" ... for many years. What I finally have done is compile it into a book and have been selling it online ever since.

As an adjunct to all of the wonderful information on your site, Mark, and perhaps as an even bigger motivator for people to subscribe to the latest articles on your site, you might want to consider offering a full and complete book of all your findings, either as an alternative source of income, or "on top of" a web subsription. For example, regarding veterinary medicine for small animals and livestock, there is a veritable tome of information called "The Merck Veterinary Manual," a 2700-page masterpiece, the entirety of which is published for free online. And yet even though it is free I still paid $50 to have a hard copy delivered to me ... because it is nice to have the physical book in my hands, whenever I need it and wherever I want to take it, as opposed to being restricted to a website reading and having to click through the sections I read. While websites have their use, ultimately having the physical book in hand is a hundred times more useful (to me) than having that same info "on a website." Thus you might want to consider compiling all of your research into a physical book too, as Merck did.

With traditional publishing, it used to be a hassle. You had to "get approved" by a major publisher, wait for months for them to turn your work into a book (and they go at a snail's pace), and then you had to wait several more months after that to get 10-15% of the residuals somewhere down the line.

Even when authors tried to bypass traditional publishing, by self-publishing, that too had many drawbacks. With traditional self-publishing, your alternative was to shell out $4,000 to $12,0000 of your own money and "buy" between 1,000 to 5,000 copies of your own book, stockpile them all somewhere, and then try to advertise and sell these physical items on your own, both to recoup your investment as well as to (hopefully) profit. On top of all that was the fact you then had to do all of the packaging, plus all of the back-and-forth driving to the post office, so basically you just gave yourself another time-consuming job to do.

But with the advent of online self-publishing, you don't have to spend a dime and you don't have to stockpike a book—and you don't have to wait one second longer than it takes to upload your completed .pdf file to get your book out. You merely put your articles together, upload your completed .pdf file, and from that second forward all you have to do is push a button and a book gets made. No expense, no hassle, no stockpiling. The size of your book, and the amount of profit you want to make off of each one, will determine your price. For instance, a paperback version of my book costs me $9.60 to make, about $10.00 to ship, and I sell it for $75. I thus profit $50-$55 per copy, and every time I get an order I just punch-in the person's info (copy-n-paste it), click a button, and the book gets manufactured and sent to the customer without any further involement from me. No packaging, no mailing, no more hassle.

If the idea of self-publishing the sum and substance of your work is of interest to you, go to www.LuLu.com and you can amass, compile, and then upload your .pdf renderings of all your findings—and, once uploaded, you can print out either a professional paperback or a professional hardback book in the next second, singly or by the hundreds. You can do it in black & white as well as in color. Doing so might prove to be a valuable adjunct to your website, and the hard part is already done (the research and the writing); all you have to do is put it together in a chronological order that makes sense, in one single .pdf file.

Just from reading the few free .pdfs online that you offer for free, I can only imagine how valuable having all of them together, in hand, would be to a person—especially if he took the time to read and re-read them all.

Your update .pdf reports not only could be uploaded online, but created in pamphlet form and offered to non-subscribers who could purchase the latest findings cheaply.

Anway, I am rambling, and maybe none of this would be of interest to you  




Quote from: MHMG
Oops, I know exactly what you mean. I had no idea what LOL meant for the longest time. Your are not alone!

Me too; the first time I saw LOL online I thought it meant "Lotsa Luck"  




Quote from: MHMG
RIP stands for Raster Image processor.  In plainspeak, its a custom printer driver software, often with custom built-in capacity to do page layout of multiple image files efficiently and on a network where more than one person is sending print jobs. RIPS have also traditionally had special calibration features that give expert users control over the way the printers lay down color (ie. giving invidual inkjet nozzle/colorant control to the user). This was an important feature in earlier days of inkjet printing when the printer supplied software and calibration routines were not so good. Third party RIPs often produced better image quality results due not only to better color control but also superior dot pattern screening patterns. RIP manufacturers had the opportunity to perfect these issues while the printer manufacturers were busy trying to build better hardware!  But the whole industry has matured.  My advice today for a photographer just getting involved in inkjet printing- Don't even think about  a RIP. Just learn to use the driver that was supplied by the original equipment manufacturer (OEM.... yikes I just defined the second term you didn't know!)
OEM stands for Original equipment manufacturer as noted above.  For example, if you own an Epson printer and you are buying OEM ink you are buying ink manufactured by or at the very least re-branded by Epson. Inks purchased from other ink manufacturers besides the printer manufacturer are sometimes thus called "non OEM" inks.
Don't get discouraged. Digital photography and printmaking is based on very logical and common sense principles, but it does have a boat load of terminology, choices, and different pathways to similar end results!
Best regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

Thank you very much for your time and for the breakdown. I for one will go ahead and subscribe to your website when I feel I am ready. I have so much learning to do I think my head is going to explode  

In addition to learning how to use my 50D, as well learning how to use the next 4 lenses I plan on getting this year, I am going to be buying (and trying to figure out how to use) Adobe CS4 to process those images—which I understand takes a veritable college course to do—and once that is done I am going to get a fine art printer. Both Michael's DVD and your website I am sure will prove invaluable to me. The more I really think about the whole process, the more I realize I have to learn.

As Avalan said, I need to get my colors and processing right, but before I do that I need to get my picture-taking and camera skills right. It is hard to try to learn and do everything at once, but I am an obsessive person my nature, so I will get the gist of it all sooner or later. I expect to have my bearings pretty well set by the end of this summer, and once I do this I will be ready to understand the whole "from camera to print" process—or at least enough of the basics to get off the ground  

Jack
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MHMG

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« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2009, 10:04:17 pm »

Quote from: JohnKoerner
As an adjunct to all of the wonderful information on your site, Mark, and perhaps as an even bigger motivator for people to subscribe to the latest articles on your site, you might want to consider offering a full and complete book of all your findings, either as an alternative source of income, or "on top of" a web subsription...
Jack

Jack, thank you for these insights. My own sense is that technical books almost never repay the author for time involved in the effort, but may very well pay off in the cache and subsequent consulting work that can comes from being considered an "expert" on a particular subject.  Henry Wilhelm's landmark book entitled "The Permanence and Care of Color Photographs: Traditional and Digital Color Prints, Color Negatives, Slides, and Motion Pictures" is still in first edition which has not sold out and was printed in no more than 10,000 copies (as is the case with most technical books). Listed at about $75 per copy, the books sales alone simply can't justify 20+ years of research, but this one publication did establish Henry as the preeminent "guru" of print permanence. I'm not sure how an accountant would justify what the final monetary value of that effort was, but it is still a great personal and technical achievement nonetheless. Kudos to Henry.

My challenge is not just in the publication of new data, but also in the acquisition of the samples needed to produce the data. Digital print media are changing too fast to keep up without help from sample contributors.  My subscribers are a key to providing the samples. I couldn't possibly buy every printer, ink, and paper required to make a thorough database on today's digital print media or even find the time to make all the prints. I concluded I simply need help from end-users to effectively distribute the printing activity and to accomplish anything close to a complete body of knowledge.

I admit I don't have all the answers. It's a real tough nut to crack. Yet I'm gaining on it and if I can hang in there long enough and with enough help and support form end users of this fascinating digital technology, I think great things can be accomplished.

Again, thanks for you comments and suggestions. It means a great deal to me.

Cheers,

Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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AlanG

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« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2009, 10:39:13 pm »

Quote from: MHMG
My challenge is not just in the publication of new data, but also in the acquisition of the samples needed to produce the data. Digital print media are changing too fast to keep up without help from sample contributors.  My subscribers are a key to providing the samples. I couldn't possibly buy every printer, ink, and paper required to make a thorough database on today's digital print media or even find the time to make all the prints. I concluded I simply need help from end-users to effectively distribute the printing activity and to accomplish anything close to a complete body of knowledge.

I admit I don't have all the answers. It's a real tough nut to crack. Yet I'm gaining on it and if I can hang in there long enough and with enough help and support form end users of this fascinating digital technology, I think great things can be accomplished.

I commend you for what you are doing and getting samples from users seems like a reasonable method to follow.  

Not taking anything away from your efforts, but it seems to me that paper manufacturers should be following an industry standardized testing procedure such as the one you use. Surely these paper companies test their paper and make profiles with a variety of printers, so they have the printing equipment and could at least test for accelerated aging with Canon, Epson, and HP pigment printers if they are targeting the fine art market.

Better for you, the manufacturers could make the test prints and send them to you with a testing fee for each one.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2009, 10:41:51 pm by AlanG »
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JohnKoerner

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« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2009, 10:45:40 pm »

Quote from: MHMG
Jack, thank you for these insights. My own sense is that technical books almost never repay the author for time involved in the effort, but may very well pay off in the cache and subsequent consulting work that can comes from being considered an "expert" on a particular subject.

I guess it all depends on the author and the book. For instance, you have already put-in the time and effort on the hard part; the easy part is just assembling and uploading. Further, as you point out, once people have a physical book in their hands then "they" become the expert. When people have a physical book in their hands they realize the person who wrote it was very serious about the subject.

For instance, I just joined a butterfly society in Florida, for which I submit photos of species not yet identified here. My contact entomologist here in Florida is John V. Calhoun. I already knew he was a PhD in entomology and I already knew he was an expert in his field. Yet as I was submitting a photo of a "Dainty Yellow" (as the first documented sighting of one in my county), I suddenly realized Mr. Calhoun was a co-author of the very reference book I use, which just kicked-up my respect for him another notch.

The book didn't change his knowledge, but what it did was change my perspective of him  




Quote from: MHMG
Henry Wilhelm's landmark book entitled "The Permanence and Care of Color Photographs: Traditional and Digital Color Prints, Color Negatives, Slides, and Motion Pictures" is still in first edition which has not sold out and was printed in no more than 10,000 copies (as is the case with most technical books). Listed at about $75 per copy, the books sales alone simply can't justify 20+ years of research, but this one publication did establish Henry as the preeminent "guru" of print permanence. I'm not sure how an accountant would justify what the final monetary value of that effort was, but it is still a great personal and technical achievement nonetheless. Kudos to Henry.

Well, see, and that is the beauty of online publishing versus traditional publishing. In traditional publishing, 10,000 physical books have to be made and have to sit somewhere. This is very costly, and very needing of space requirements. The old way, you'd have to spend about $15,000 to make 10,000 books, and if you can't sell them all you're screwed.

With online publishing, you don't have to spend a penny and you don't have to occupy a square inch of space. You just upload your .pdf file and then print each book singly in an on-demand basis. When a customer orders online, you cut-n-paste his info to the online publisher, then push a button, and only then is an actual physical book manufactured. That is all you do. The book is automatically created, wrapped, and addressed to the customer. The only thing your accountant would be tallying is the profit; you would never spend a penny.

Another neat thing about online publishing is versatility. Suppose you spent $15,000 the old way on 10,000 books ... only to realize you misspelled some words or that new scientific advancement came out the following month which rendered your information obsolete. The old way, you'd want to smash your head through a wall, or hang yourself from the rafters, with all those books sitting there and with all that capital tied up to yesterday's news.

The new way, you wouldn't skip a beat. You'd just make the corrections, or you'd add the new and pertinent info, make the ammendments to your .pdf file, and then just re-submit it all in another online upload, and you'd have a new book ready for sale within a few moments. No wasted books ordered and not a bump in the road at all. You can re-invent your book as you see fit, immediately, and just upload and sell that new version from that moment forward, right then and there.




Quote from: MHMG
My challenge is not just in the publication of new data, but also in the acquisition of the samples needed to produce the data. Digital print media are changing too fast to keep up without help from sample contributors.  My subscribers are a key to providing the samples. I couldn't possibly buy every printer, ink, and paper required to make a thorough database on today's digital print media or even find the time to make all the prints. I concluded I simply need help from end-users to effectively distribute the printing activity and to accomplish anything close to a complete body of knowledge.

That is something else again, and yes that is both a challenge AND a great service. I think forums like these are a great thing for online sales, because they allow exposure to others and for them to see the quality of your work. In the 2008 Writer's Market, best-selling author Seth Godin compiled his original fan base all on message boards and blogs, so that when his book came out he already had an audience and word of mouth.




Quote from: MHMG
I admit I don't have all the answers. It's a real tough nut to crack. Yet I'm gaining on it and if I can hang in there long enough and with enough help and support form end users of this fascinating digital technology, I think great things can be accomplished.
Again, thanks for you comments and suggestions. It means a great deal to me.
Cheers,
Mark

In tough times, people gravitate to quality. Period.

The fact that these printers, inks, papers, and media cost professionals so much money will make them gravitate to quality information about their very livelihood. Spending $55 to $200 to be pointed in the right direction by an expert in a market where products cost thousands (even tens of thousands) of dollars is a small price to pay a scientist and consultant such as yourself.

How much money would a person have to spend in time, education, and materials to do it themselves?

Hats off to you,

Jack
« Last Edit: January 13, 2009, 10:50:15 pm by JohnKoerner »
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MHMG

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Traditional Film versus Modern Inkjet
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2009, 12:14:21 am »

Quote from: AlanG
Not taking anything away from your efforts, but it seems to me that paper manufacturers should be following an industry standardized testing procedure such as the one you use. Surely these paper companies test their paper and make profiles with a variety of printers, so they have the printing equipment and could at least test for accelerated aging with Canon, Epson, and HP pigment printers if they are targeting the fine art market.

Better for you, the manufacturers could make the test prints and send them to you with a testing fee for each one.

Alan, thanks. I do indeed have a policy and a fair procedure for vendors to work with me to do exactly what you are suggesting. I don't charge licensing fees to use the data for marketing purposes.  I only ask that the true costs of the tests be funded, and then the sponsor can have the test results available as a public link on my website and also use the test results in other venues. That said, the I* metric I invented and now use in my research has not yet been "blessed" by the industry, and other research labs using more conventional test methods now have the inside track on getting contracts for this type of work.  My own track record with research I've done over the course of my carreer indicates that from the time of inception to the time of acceptance for new and innovative ideas, at least five years go by, sometimes ten. For example, the Getty Conservation Institute recently contacted me to ask permission to reprint articles I had published in the 1990s on photographic conservation related topics.  That's the "blessing" I'm talking about, but it took over five years before the work got really noticed, and another five before the work achieved "hall of fame" recognition.   I think I will break thru the glass ceiling with the I* metric one of these days because I know it works right, but industry acceptance hasn't happened yet. It's a catch-22. I was told by more than one engineer at the big printer OEMs that my I* metric was novel and will be embraced just as soon as other companies embrace it first. So it takes but one university or industry endorsement to get the ball rolling, but that hasn't happened yet.  In the meantime and probably for as long as I can stay at it, my commitment is to my subscribers who are helping me slug my way through this induction period.


Well, it seems I've  gotten off topic in this thread, but I do really appreciate everyone's comments and suggestions. I'm encouraged. Thanks.


cheers,

Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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