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Author Topic: Processed 16bit tif versus RAW  (Read 4066 times)

simplify

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Processed 16bit tif versus RAW
« on: January 10, 2009, 08:31:08 pm »

Hi there.  I prefer to process files in CaptureOne, but I then bring it into Lightroom and do some minor adjustments like gradients and sharpening etc.  Is there a difference in manipulation of data when I process a RAW file straight from the camera in Lightroom, as opposed to a processing a 16bit Tif file out of CaptureOne, in Lightroom?  Is a 16bit tiff considered the same in terms of processing capabilities as a RAW file?  This is something I have never really figured out.  I would appreciate an answer only from people who have technical knowledge about this question, as opposed to people who have an opinion about it.
Thanks,
JP
« Last Edit: January 10, 2009, 08:31:43 pm by simplify »
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simplify

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Processed 16bit tif versus RAW
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2009, 09:30:00 pm »

Good to know, Thank you very much.
JP
Quote from: John Schweikert
JP,

I did this regularly last year when I still used Capture One 3.7 and LR 1.x side by side. Yes there is degradation when the 16bit file is pushed too much in LR as opposed to raw, but for the adjustments I made in LR of the tiff file, I never saw any degradation that was visible in print. I liked the workflow because LR color just sucked and I liked the color Capture One gave. I don't do this anymore because LR has the option now for custom calibration files which helped greatly.

User experience, not tech knowledge, but I don't think there is anything wrong with the workflow if the outcome looks good.
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sandymc

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Processed 16bit tif versus RAW
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2009, 05:06:52 am »

Quote from: simplify
Hi there.  I prefer to process files in CaptureOne, but I then bring it into Lightroom and do some minor adjustments like gradients and sharpening etc.  Is there a difference in manipulation of data when I process a RAW file straight from the camera in Lightroom, as opposed to a processing a 16bit Tif file out of CaptureOne, in Lightroom?  Is a 16bit tiff considered the same in terms of processing capabilities as a RAW file?  This is something I have never really figured out.  I would appreciate an answer only from people who have technical knowledge about this question, as opposed to people who have an opinion about it.
Thanks,
JP

Technically, totally different: with the TIF option, you are using C1's demosaicing (interpolation) engine, and C1's color conversion matrix (the thing that gets you from the camera sensor data to a user color space like ProPhoto). If you go straight into LR, LR does both those things. So you will get slightly different results. The demosaicing choice is the most significant - broadly, you can use either program's color and curve adjustments to come pretty close to the other's color rendition, but once the demosaicing is done and you have a Tif, that's it, you're committed unless you go back to the raw file.

Sandy
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digitaldog

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Processed 16bit tif versus RAW
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2009, 10:56:04 am »

Quote from: sandymc
Technically, totally different: with the TIF option, you are using C1's demosaicing (interpolation) engine, and C1's color conversion matrix (the thing that gets you from the camera sensor data to a user color space like ProPhoto). If you go straight into LR, LR does both those things. So you will get slightly different results. The demosaicing choice is the most significant - broadly, you can use either program's color and curve adjustments to come pretty close to the other's color rendition, but once the demosaicing is done and you have a Tif, that's it, you're committed unless you go back to the raw file.

Exactly. Plus the processing in LR is linear encoded, the processing outside (Photoshop) is gamma encoded. HALF of all the data in a linear encoded doc is in the first stop of highlight (read Michael's Expose to the Right). Once you distribute this in a gamma corrected, pixel based doc, lots of image processing options like control over highlight recovery are either very difficult or impossible. LR is using metadata instructions to build a big "edit list" of how it will render new pixels from the Raw data as you describe. Once you've got baked pixels in Photoshop, making big moves is again, either difficult or impossible and there's a huge speed hit (rendered pixels are slow to alter, metadata isn't). Unbaking a cake to alter the amount of sweetness is real difficult (pixel editing). Defining or altering the recipe prior to baking (altering the metadata instructions), is fast, easy and flexible.

Pixel editing and Raw rendering are quite different! Unfortunately, we have to pick on Raw processing engine (the others don't understand the recipes) then render the data. Once you render, there's a very important line you've drawn in the workflow sand!
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simplify

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Processed 16bit tif versus RAW
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2009, 02:40:36 pm »

Thanks for the answers.  I realized that a 16 bit tif is baked pixels.  I was just confused because somebody told me a 16 bit tif was just as process-able as a RAW file.  I guess I can't have the best of both worlds - Interface and some tools from Lightroom, along with processing capabilities and color output of CaptureOne.

Thanks again,
JP
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digitaldog

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Processed 16bit tif versus RAW
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2009, 02:46:47 pm »

Quote from: simplify
I was just confused because somebody told me a 16 bit tif was just as process-able as a RAW file.

Absolutely not. We don't process Raw files at all, we create new, virgin pixels using the Raw data source.

This is worth passing onto whoever told you this:
http://wwwimages.adobe.com/www.adobe.com/p...renderprint.pdf
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bjanes

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Processed 16bit tif versus RAW
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2009, 09:22:49 pm »

Quote from: digitaldog
Exactly. Plus the processing in LR is linear encoded, the processing outside (Photoshop) is gamma encoded. HALF of all the data in a linear encoded doc is in the first stop of highlight (read Michael's Expose to the Right). Once you distribute this in a gamma corrected, pixel based doc, lots of image processing options like control over highlight recovery are either very difficult or impossible. LR is using metadata instructions to build a big "edit list" of how it will render new pixels from the Raw data as you describe. Once you've got baked pixels in Photoshop, making big moves is again, either difficult or impossible and there's a huge speed hit (rendered pixels are slow to alter, metadata isn't). Unbaking a cake to alter the amount of sweetness is real difficult (pixel editing). Defining or altering the recipe prior to baking (altering the metadata instructions), is fast, easy and flexible.

The brightest f/stop of a 14 bit linear raw file does contain half the total levels in the capture, but not half of the usable information, since as  Emil Martinec explains in his excellent analysis, most of that precision is used to record shot noise (which increases with exposure). In this brightest f/stop, the shot noise is often 10 or more raw levels, and many of these superfluous levels can be thrown away without visibly affecting the image (see the section on lossy NEF compression). The real reason for exposing to the right has little to do with the number of levels, but rather the improved signal to noise ratio that results from the increased exposure.

If a gamma encoding is done with sufficient precision (16 bits / channel should be sufficient) with no clipping, the encoding can be undone by an inverse gamma curve and the resulting linear file can be processed as any other linear file. For example, contrary to previous assertions, a 16 bit TIFF can easily be white balanced in ACR. The process is complicated in practice, since most raw converters apply more than a simple gamma encoding.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2009, 09:40:28 pm by bjanes »
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bjanes

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Processed 16bit tif versus RAW
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2009, 09:56:35 pm »

Quote from: digitaldog
Absolutely not. We don't process Raw files at all, we create new, virgin pixels using the Raw data source.

This is worth passing onto whoever told you this:
http://wwwimages.adobe.com/www.adobe.com/p...renderprint.pdf

Creatio ex nihilo is more applicable to theology than  photography. We obviously process the raw files. An early step is demosaicing, which fills in the missing colors of the Bayer array and conversion from the camera space to a linear internal working space. This resulting scene referred image could be recorded as a TIFF for later processing, or rendering could be done immediately in the raw converter. Rendering, as used by Karr Lang, is the process of going from a scene referred image to an output referred image, and usually involves compression with loss of data (see the "big squeeze" in his paper). Both raw images and Photoshop images are pixel based, and I don't see the distinction.
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digitaldog

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Processed 16bit tif versus RAW
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2009, 09:37:52 am »

Quote from: bjanes
We obviously process the raw files.

We use the data source which is untouched or modified to create new RGB (gamma corrected) pixels. Once created, all you can do is alter their values, there's data loss to rounding errors and heck, its time consuming assuming you can render the pixels as desired.

Quote
Rendering, as used by Karr Lang, is the process of going from a scene referred image to an output referred image, and usually involves compression with loss of data (see the "big squeeze" in his paper). Both raw images and Photoshop images are pixel based, and I don't see the distinction.

Raw is scene referred data. The pixel data Karl discusses from Raw is output referred. The distinction IS the rendering! That both are pixels is obvious. The data, the pixels, what we can even do with the pixels is considerably different in terms of that distinction.

The statement I made "We don't process Raw files at all, we create new, virgin pixels using the Raw data source". Should have been clearer I agree (yes, we "process" or better read data from the Raw data and build new resulting pixels). And the main point and answer to the OP is there's a tremendous difference in building pixels from Raw data using metadata versus altering baked pixels in Photoshop.

« Last Edit: January 12, 2009, 09:40:41 am by digitaldog »
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