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abcdefghi_rstuvwxyz

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Rollei vs Contax
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2009, 02:12:48 am »

I have both Contax and Hasselblad V, none of these are going to be a dead system. But I do see a big benefit to have two bodies for any of these two systems. It can be used as the back-up.
I believe a lot of people read Hasselblad V as "Carl Zeiss". In this sense, you can see Contax 645 as the 645-AF Hasselbadl V, more even so than the Fuji-Blad H. Its impossible not to fall in love with it, if you ever tried it.

Rollei 6008AF and the new comer Hy6 may not have the equal image quality as the Contax 645 if you use it in the 645 or sub-645 format. It has to compromise to get the possibility of 6x6 format.
But this is exactly its potential benefit. If, in the near future, there is ever a full frame 6x6 digital back, you'll be glad to have the native 6x6.

For he same price, you might be able to get the Mamiya 645. This is definitely going to be a long live system. Not sure how's the image quality, it's Mamiya, but most review show it's on par with Hasselblad H but much cheaper.

Quote from: hobbsr
Hi All,

Some may have seen the other thread I have regarding using film, so this is related to that discussion. I can't add a film back to my H3D kit so I have been offered so very attractive options and I wanted to seek your advice and experience with these systems:

1. I can get a new Rollei 6008AF with 50, 80 and 150 lens with a 6008 Pro as backup (only the 80mm would be AF other PQ or PQS)
- I see locally servicing to be an issue but this is at least a live system even with the 6008 pro being maybe 20 years old?
- batteries seem to not be the best but the lens and the features are attractive and there is a digital option if I need one
- Seems to be not the most common system and that may cause issues later with secondhand availability and resale?

2. I can get two Contax 645 kits with grips and 45, 80, 120 and 210 lens all 9+ condition for the same as above if not a little less
- Main issue is this is a dead system and here in OZ servicing could be a real problem?
- Seems to me to really be the best 645 system and the lens are great, also there is digital options and seems there is alot of kit on ebay and other sources

I have had the systems for the last few days and only been able to get a couple of rolls back from the labs, it seems that the Contax was easier to work with the results are sharper mainly because they are in focus! I am using these handheld and have had a few issues as the Rollei only has the waist level finder so have found focusing a bit hard to adjust too.

The main argument seems to get down to the Rollei is a current and live system with great optics? the Contax most likely the best 645 system and great optics but a dead system!

As I said before any advice of reliability or other useful comments would be great as the results from both are wonderful and I am tending to like the Contax just worried for how long can I keep it going as a system?

thanks in advance
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Khun_K

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Rollei vs Contax
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2009, 11:58:22 pm »

Quote from: hobbsr
Hi All,

Some may have seen the other thread I have regarding using film, so this is related to that discussion. I can't add a film back to my H3D kit so I have been offered so very attractive options and I wanted to seek your advice and experience with these systems:

1. I can get a new Rollei 6008AF with 50, 80 and 150 lens with a 6008 Pro as backup (only the 80mm would be AF other PQ or PQS)
- I see locally servicing to be an issue but this is at least a live system even with the 6008 pro being maybe 20 years old?
- batteries seem to not be the best but the lens and the features are attractive and there is a digital option if I need one
- Seems to be not the most common system and that may cause issues later with secondhand availability and resale?

2. I can get two Contax 645 kits with grips and 45, 80, 120 and 210 lens all 9+ condition for the same as above if not a little less
- Main issue is this is a dead system and here in OZ servicing could be a real problem?
- Seems to me to really be the best 645 system and the lens are great, also there is digital options and seems there is alot of kit on ebay and other sources

I have had the systems for the last few days and only been able to get a couple of rolls back from the labs, it seems that the Contax was easier to work with the results are sharper mainly because they are in focus! I am using these handheld and have had a few issues as the Rollei only has the waist level finder so have found focusing a bit hard to adjust too.

The main argument seems to get down to the Rollei is a current and live system with great optics? the Contax most likely the best 645 system and great optics but a dead system!

As I said before any advice of reliability or other useful comments would be great as the results from both are wonderful and I am tending to like the Contax just worried for how long can I keep it going as a system?

thanks in advance
I use both system for awhile before setting digitally on Contax 645, and later also with H3D.  The Contax 645 is a compact system and much lighter to operate, and excellent optics. I fthe question is between the Contax 645 and Hy6 then may be it would be a much tougher call but to me base on today's most common sensor size, I will go for Contax 645, but if I started new, I will settle with Hy6.  I have 3 Contax 645 body and still using the one I bought back in 1998, can't count many exposures already, and all the lenses work perfectly from day one until now.  I still can get some new 645 body and lenses (except the 120/4 APO-Makro) from HK, and could not care more about service because it has proved to be a very robust system.
Hy6 is a totally different equation and I think 6008 series Rollei is more or less as old as Contax 645 and probably require more service and less digital back to support. If I were 6008 user, I would move to Hy6 but keep all the lenses, but between Contax 645 and Rollei 6008,  I will go for Contax 645.
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bcooter

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Rollei vs Contax
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2009, 01:38:47 pm »

Quote from: Khun_K
I use both system for awhile before setting digitally on Contax 645, and later also with H3D.  The Contax 645 is a compact system and much lighter to operate, and excellent optics. I fthe question is between the Contax 645 and Hy6 then may be it would be a much tougher call but to me base on today's most common sensor size, I will go for Contax 645, but if I started new, I will settle with Hy6.  I have 3 Contax 645 body and still using the one I bought back in 1998, can't count many exposures already, and all the lenses work perfectly from day one until now.  I still can get some new 645 body and lenses (except the 120/4 APO-Makro) from HK, and could not care more about service because it has proved to be a very robust system.
Hy6 is a totally different equation and I think 6008 series Rollei is more or less as old as Contax 645 and probably require more service and less digital back to support. If I were 6008 user, I would move to Hy6 but keep all the lenses, but between Contax 645 and Rollei 6008,  I will go for Contax 645.


One thing that gets lost in most of these disccusions of cameras is regardless of the camera format, in medium format your always shooting slightly less than even a 645.  You might like the contrast range of a mamiya 6x7 or the tactile feel of a Rollei 6008 but regardless of the size camera once you go digital it's always smaller than 645.

I don't have almost any experience with the Rollei, other than once with film and it's a nice camera, kind of strange with the proprietary batteries and the lenses I've seen in the states, even used are very expensive, but if I was really going this direction I'd look at a Sinarhy6  or Leaf rather than an 6008 because from what I understand the digital back choices on the Rollei are limited.

I do have a lot of experience with the Contax cameras and they strong never really break unless it's user error and are one of the few "pre proprietary" cameras that have a digital interface so you don't have to mess with sync cords and of course you never worry about firmware upgrades because there is no new firmware upgrades.

Up to a few years ago you could find a Contax system in rental everywhere, but there are less and less as time goes by, though I've yet to  be in a medium to large city where there wasn't a complete system for sale somewhere.  In fact buying a Contax is probably as easy as buying any new system and usually a lot less expensive.  It has a great self timer for mirror up, the focus is good as long as there is enough light in the room, the body and lenses are bullet proof.

The lenses are sharp, at least as sharp as I've ever needed and in fact a little too sharp for some things I shoot, though in digital moving sliders can change the sharpness quickly.

The only issues with reliability are to keep the prism off the body when traveling as the rails that connect the prism to the body are somewhat fragile and if they take a shock will break and make connection  sporatic.  The other is to always cover the shutter as it's very easy to stick a thumb through the exposed shutter if the back is not attached.

The only drawbacks to the camera are the lens, prism and body contacts should be polished clean as they must connect securely and the primsm reduces the ground glass view so the with a 90 degree prism the view is perceived smaller than a new Nikon, Canon or Hasselblad H.  The upside is unlike the Nikons and Canons what you see on the ground glass is the same look and depth of field as what you see on the file and unlike the H system the prism is true and doesn't artificially bend the view so what you see is what you get.

With the waist level finder the ground glass view is quite large, but with either the prism or the waist level finder you can focus manually.

If you shoot a lot of horizontals even the inflated used price of $700 for the waist level finder is worth it and since the rest of the contax prices are so under valued that $700 is not really an issue.  If you shoot a lot of verticals the the right angle grip is a must and no new medium format camera has a right angle grip (today).

Really if I was going to start again and buy a new medium format system the only thing that would interest me beyond the contax is the Rollei HY6 "if" it accepted all digital backs and "if" you could rotate the back "and" the image area would black out to your exact framing, but since the HY6 is not an open platform if I had to have Leaf shutter lenses then I'd go with an older H1-2 Hasselblad, though for non hasselblad backs, that system is just as dead as the Contax, though like the Contax there is a lot of product in used so finding something is not that difficult.  Actually I'd go with the Fuji version of the H system because it's black and not locked out like the later versions of the Hasselblad.

I've looked at the new Phase/mamiya and it's a step up from where it was but compared to the Contax it still feels like a toy and the fact the prism doesn't remove, it requires firmware updates at the factory, the prices have gone up considerably and the lenses and accessories are still "to come", I don't really see the point of that system until it's in it's finished version.

There is already talk of the new Phase tilt shift that has the same softness as the old Harteblie tilt shift which probably was to be expected, though not at a 500% price increase.

So back to the original thread.  I think the 6008 is a nice system though before I'd make the investment in lenses I would do a great deal of research about how the  various digital backs attach to it and operate, because as of today, every maker has a digital back for the Contax.

The upside of the Contax, except for leaf shutter lenses which I rarely use, is if you want to get into medium format with a quality camera it's probably the best priced and easiest to source of any medium format camera including many of the new systems.  It's surely one of the most full featured systems around and accepts a lot of differrent lenses through adpaters.

If you must have higher flash sync speed then it's not an option.







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duncanmckie

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« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2009, 03:47:42 pm »

I have two 645 bodies (one is the spare), and the 35, 45, 80, 120, 140 and 210 plus the 1.4x extender. I have a phase 30+ back. All camera parts were purchased used.

The system has never failed. The quality, especially with the 80mm which is very inexpensive on ebay etcetera, is excellent.  The price/quality ratio is unbeatable.

Like many quality film-based systems, they will hang in there...there is so much product in the used system that running low on parts will take a long time, I am sure. That's why I decided to buy this system.
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EricWHiss

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« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2009, 05:24:19 pm »

One other thing to consider is that the 6x6 format of the rollei will give a different look compared to a 645 format due to the larger magnification factor of the bigger image circle on the 6x6.   This will also mean less DOF for a given amount of light.   You might say the backs are the same size so how could there be a difference, but there is because of the lenses.    Ergonomics are also a factor and hopefully one would have a chance to try the different cameras before making a decision.  I really like the detachable handle grip for the rollei. I think this gives me extra stability in shooting and is comfortable to hand the camera down by my side when I'm not actively shooting.  This makes a big difference to me.
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rainer_v

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« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2009, 05:46:41 pm »

i still have my contax together with 35/45/55/80/140+210mm lenses and waistlevel finder and prism.
its a great system and market prices are too cheap to sell it, so i hold it ( wanted to sell because i am not a collectionist and i also have the sinar m ).
this means too that if you search in ebay you can get a whole system as mine under 8000$.
this is a great moment for buying 2. hand gear because many people are frightened for the economy
and also many switch to 35mm since the new 21/25mp  digi-slrs. but this might be the same for lenses for the 6008 so one can get a hy6 too
and add 2.hand lenses, which is the most expensive in such system.
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KevinA

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« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2009, 03:32:36 am »

I had a Rollei 6002 for a time, I liked it because I came from a Rollei TLR background, I also like the square format, the Mamiya was mentioned as an alternative, I had a couple of these, but only for a few months, each picture felt like it could be the last one before the camera fell apart. I'm sure they were built by people that previously had built Windmills, the technology felt the same. The best MF I ever used and still have is the Pentax 67, 6x7 makes 645 look more like 35mm, I never really took to 645. If for fun I had a pile of money sloshing around, I would go for the wide tele and standard Rolleiflex TLR's. When I think back to my first job we covered everything with TLR Rollei's from Passport pictures to offshore marine, interiors, weddings and aerials. Needless to say if I had a choice between the 6008 and Contax, for the 6x6 format, waist level viewfinder and handling the the Rollei would get my vote, I also liked the pre-loadable film inserts my Rollei had, I presume the 6008 still takes these.

Kevin.
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geesbert

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« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2009, 01:56:11 pm »

the rollei lenses are not that expensive second hand, especially the non-AF. for my AFI I got a 50mm pq for €450, a 120mm macro pq for €700, a 150mm pqs for €500. and there are quite a lot of them around. how much do you pay for contax's equivalent?
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rainer_v

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« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2009, 04:38:38 pm »

Quote from: geesbert
the rollei lenses are not that expensive second hand, especially the non-AF. for my AFI I got a 50mm pq for €450, a 120mm macro pq for €700, a 150mm pqs for €500. and there are quite a lot of them around. how much do you pay for contax's equivalent?

more ....
but they are af.
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Carsten W

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« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2009, 04:52:40 pm »

Quote from: rainer_v
more ....
but they are af.

But not that much more. I picked up my 120 Macro in perfect condition for $1800CAN. Shipping to Europe and VAT added to that, but it was still quite a nice deal, and it really is perfect. The macro 120 isn't AF, though. My 35/3.5 I picked up for $1400US, also perfect, with box and papers. I am not sure there is another 35mm lens as good in any 645 system, possibly except Rollei.
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Plekto

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« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2009, 08:37:06 pm »

I'm not such a fan of Rollei myself * , mostly because of the pricing and the fact that there are nearly identical options available if you're only shooting film.  After all, a camera is basically a lens, a box, and some sort of focusing and/or aperture mechanism in between.

My favorite for the money is the Mamiya, but it's pricey.  The budget winner is the Pentax 645N.  It's new enough to get parts for, is dead-simple to use, and the optics are decent enough to where only the most anal will really care.  Especially if it's in relation to 35mm/what you were shooting before. Oh, and it's inexpensive, used.  

* An exception to this is their TLRs.  Simple and economical.  Fantastic results.  I can't really tell much difference between a 8000 series and their better TLRs in actual quality.  Sure, the newer and fancier model has interchangeable lenses and a bunch of bells and goodies on it, plus maybe auto-focus, but the results are very close.  One was made for professionals with a work flow to deal with and the other wasn't.  The film doesn't seem to care much, though.    


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Gigi

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« Reply #31 on: January 15, 2009, 10:05:52 pm »

Quote from: Plekto
I'm not such a fan of Rollei myself * , mostly because of the pricing and the fact that there are nearly identical options available if you're only shooting film.  After all, a camera is basically a lens, a box, and some sort of focusing and/or aperture mechanism in between.

My favorite for the money is the Mamiya, but it's pricey.  The budget winner is the Pentax 645N.  It's new enough to get parts for, is dead-simple to use, and the optics are decent enough to where only the most anal will really care.  Especially if it's in relation to 35mm/what you were shooting before. Oh, and it's inexpensive, used.  

* An exception to this is their TLRs.  Simple and economical.  Fantastic results.  I can't really tell much difference between a 8000 series and their better TLRs in actual quality.  Sure, the newer and fancier model has interchangeable lenses and a bunch of bells and goodies on it, plus maybe auto-focus, but the results are very close.  One was made for professionals with a work flow to deal with and the other wasn't.  The film doesn't seem to care much, though.  

I agree with you on the TLR's. Amazing cameras, and while developed years ago, still take great images. Rollei worked out all the "user" issues long ago, and these cameras are ergonomic and precise. The film loading is an issue - somewhat slow, to be sure. But even today, a scanned image from the TLR negative, and its hard to beat it.

With the 6000 series cameras, Rollei tried to make a conversion to the SLR setup, and until the 6003/8 series, didn't quite get it right. But as the third generation (SL66, then 6002/6, ending up at 6003/8), they got it pretty much spot on for a hybrid mech'l/elec camera. The 6003 is simpler, thinner back, removable handle, but almost all the other features. The 6008 really opens up to full professional use. But you can haul the simpler 6003 around and shoot on the street pretty readily. The lightness of the thinner back does make a difference, esp. with WLF. And you can add almost all the 6008 features onto it if you want.

The main features of the 6003/8 are the integration of all the activities into a pretty fast and flexible package. The metering is fully integrated, and while I never really felt a need for the motorized film transport, the film cassettes are just a delight: preload a couple of cassettes (they're cheap and easy) and you can change to new film roll in under 10 seconds easy. Also, I've never yet been able to beat the Rollei meter.

Each person has their own feel for a camera, but the Rollei seems to fall to hand pretty easily. While I wanted to like the Hassy 500's,  I never felt at ease with them. Too many oddities, and things that just seem to need a special touch. Maybe others have different opinions.

Is a 6003/8 better than the Rollei TLR? If one likes changing lenses, or the ability to use wide angle, surely. The film loading is better, and the film flatness, one of the great unheralded strengths of this system, is superior as well. Film in the 6003/8 is just really really flat to the plate. That's one reason they are so sharp. The integration is great, and the ability to go from fully automatic, to partially auto, to fully manual is great too. For travelling, sometimes I'll take the TLR, because it is just that much smaller, and sometimes the 6003. Just depends on how much hand carrying will be done. You can haul a TLR around all day, but after a couple of hours, the 6003 is getting heavy.  

With the autofocus 6008 AF, system wise, things got better but maybe not as good. Perhaps a bit too much was being asked of the system, and thus the Hy6 makes a lot of sense as the next iteration of the system. Again, the overall appraoch was repackaged, reengineered, and rethought in the Hy6 - now smaller, not much lighter, but the motor is now in the back, not the camera, so for a digital back, you aren't carrying that load. And the electronics are improved.

There are seemingly other options, but few have this level of integration and the ability to both travel light and then bulk up as a fully professional system. The Bronica, Fuji, or other SLR's have either more weight or less system integration (?), but each have their own purposes.

Of course, one has to buy into the Rollei world at the right time and in the right way. They offer packages that make a good deal of sense every once anda while, and then its wonderful. I don't know if they really believe in their asking prices for these new lenses, but most were gotten for around $2k, never more than $3k (new) for any lens, for about 5 of them.... But they aren't AF lenses either.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2009, 05:55:56 am by Geoffreyg »
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Geoff

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« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2009, 10:39:18 pm »

Quote from: Geoffreyg
I don't know if they really believe in their asking prices for these new lenses, but I've never paid more than $3k for any lens of theirs, and have about 5 of them, 3 bought new.... But they aren't AF lenses either.

I know where you can get them a fair bit cheaper than $3k!  

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=31155
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David K

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« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2009, 10:09:59 am »

I shoot both Contax 645 and Hy6 bodies on my Sinar e75LV back and like them both.  The Hy6 is by far the more "sophisticated" camera and the ergonomics for hand held shooting can't be beaten.   Notwithstanding it's advanced technology, etc.  it has not displaced the Contax 645 for me.  I love the simplicity of the Contax and the Zeiss and Hasselblad glass (with MAM-1 adapter) I shoot with it more than holds it's own with Rollei.  While used Rollei prices are far below catalog pricing, they are still more expensive than the glass for the Contax kit... and bigger... and heavier.  The Rollei 110 f/2 is twice the size of the Hasselblad equivalent.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2009, 10:10:41 am by David K »
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BJNY

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« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2009, 10:21:18 am »

Quote from: David K
... and bigger... and heavier.  The Rollei 110 f/2 is twice the size of the Hasselblad equivalent.

For comparison, filter size is B70 vs. 95mm
the extra diameter required for the leaf shutter.
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« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2009, 02:22:25 pm »

Quote from: BJNY
For comparison, filter size is B70 vs. 95mm
the extra diameter required for the leaf shutter.

That's interesting - I thought it had more to do with image circle since the actual optic elements are larger too?  

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Evanjoe610

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« Reply #36 on: January 26, 2009, 10:32:04 pm »

[quote name='David Klepacki' date='Jan 10 2009, 12:34 AM' post='251071']
1.  For event / people shooting, I would recommend getting the Contax flash bracket.  I find that the ergonomics of hand holding the system are perfect with this bracket, at least for me.  This way, you can use either a prism or a waist level finder with your flash.  This bracket has integrated flash cable that attaches nicely to the side of the camera body.  I have never seen a prism fail, although I have seen the flash shoe on top of a prism fail.  So, having a flash bracket serves double duty as a backup flash shoe as well.  The vertical hand grip should also be considered, but it is not a necessity as it does add weight which takes its toll during a long day of hand held shooting.

Hi David,

I just bought a Contax 645 MSB-1 flash bracket that did not have set of instruction with it. I know where the flash sych cord goes, but what is the RCA plug cable? Where does it fit on to and to which part does it work on?
 I will be using a Quantum Battery 1+ with the MCX cable that attaches to power the body. I was hoping that maybe the Quantum Battery 1+ with BOTH cable (for dflahs and body) will be sufficient enough to drive both the body AF mechanism and a flahs. Has anyone here have experience doing this?

Evan
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David Klepacki

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« Reply #37 on: January 26, 2009, 11:55:48 pm »

Hi Evan,

The coiled cord with the mini-jack enables the shutter button on the flash bracket.  This part connects to the cable shutter port on the bottom right side of the camera grip.  Or, if you are using the MP-1 vertical grip, then this port is at the rear of this grip near the bottom right.

The other cord with the 4-pin jack plugs into the similar type port on the left side of the camera body.  This enables the flash shoe on the bracket.

An external battery, like the QB1+, serves another function, namely to supply power to everything, and so will connect to yet another port on the camera and/or flash.

David

Quote from: Evanjoe610
Hi David,

I just bought a Contax 645 MSB-1 flash bracket that did not have set of instruction with it. I know where the flash sych cord goes, but what is the RCA plug cable? Where does it fit on to and to which part does it work on?
 I will be using a Quantum Battery 1+ with the MCX cable that attaches to power the body. I was hoping that maybe the Quantum Battery 1+ with BOTH cable (for dflahs and body) will be sufficient enough to drive both the body AF mechanism and a flahs. Has anyone here have experience doing this?

Evan
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Evanjoe610

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« Reply #38 on: January 27, 2009, 12:00:58 am »

Quote from: David Klepacki
Hi Evan,

The coiled cord with the mini-jack enables the shutter button on the flash bracket.  This part connects to the cable shutter port on the bottom right side of the camera grip.  Or, if you are using the MP-1 vertical grip, then this port is at the rear of this grip near the bottom right.

The other cord with the 4-pin jack plugs into the similar type port on the left side of the camera body.  This enables the flash shoe on the bracket.

An external battery, like the QB1+, serves another function, namely to supply power to everything, and so will connect to yet another port on the camera and/or flash.

David


David,

Thanks for explaining how the coil cord works. Now I understand how each of the cord works. Using the MSB-1 would be served best if a 2 flash system is required. I guess for a wedding either the MSB-1 or the MP-1 would work with the Quantum Battery 1+.  Thanks for your help.

Evan
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