Rollei vs Contax

[hobbsr]

Hi All,

Some may have seen the other thread I have regarding using film, so this is related to that discussion. I can't add a film back to my H3D kit so I have been offered so very attractive options and I wanted to seek your advice and experience with these systems:

1. I can get a new Rollei 6008AF with 50, 80 and 150 lens with a 6008 Pro as backup (only the 80mm would be AF other PQ or PQS)
- I see locally servicing to be an issue but this is at least a live system even with the 6008 pro being maybe 20 years old?
- batteries seem to not be the best but the lens and the features are attractive and there is a digital option if I need one
- Seems to be not the most common system and that may cause issues later with secondhand availability and resale?

2. I can get two Contax 645 kits with grips and 45, 80, 120 and 210 lens all 9+ condition for the same as above if not a little less
- Main issue is this is a dead system and here in OZ servicing could be a real problem?
- Seems to me to really be the best 645 system and the lens are great, also there is digital options and seems there is alot of kit on ebay and other sources

I have had the systems for the last few days and only been able to get a couple of rolls back from the labs, it seems that the Contax was easier to work with the results are sharper mainly because they are in focus! I am using these handheld and have had a few issues as the Rollei only has the waist level finder so have found focusing a bit hard to adjust too.

The main argument seems to get down to the Rollei is a current and live system with great optics? the Contax most likely the best 645 system and great optics but a dead system!

As I said before any advice of reliability or other useful comments would be great as the results from both are wonderful and I am tending to like the Contax just worried for how long can I keep it going as a system?

thanks in advance

[amsp]

Why not get a used Mamiya 645 AFD system? It'll cost you less and you don't have to worry about the system being dead.

[Graham Mitchell]

I like the Contax system, but there are a few drawbacks: very slow flash sync, and some parts are already impossible to find with no new parts being made any more. I also believe there are no viewfinder options.

I wouldn't worry about finding parts for the Rollei. It is quite a popular system in Europe, with many used bodies available. The lenses will hold value too because they work with the Sinar Hy6/Leaf AFi. This also means you have an easy upgrade path to this new platform.

At the end of the day, you have to like using the system, and no-one else can answer that for you. If you do opt for the ROllei, there is a great battery upgrade which is cheap and makes a huge difference. See http://www.graham-mitchell.com/blog/?p=72

[micmatthews]

Hi All,

Some may have seen the other thread I have regarding using film, so this is related to that discussion. I can't add a film back to my H3D kit so I have been offered so very attractive options and I wanted to seek your advice and experience with these systems:

1. I can get a new Rollei 6008AF with 50, 80 and 150 lens with a 6008 Pro as backup (only the 80mm would be AF other PQ or PQS)
- I see locally servicing to be an issue but this is at least a live system even with the 6008 pro being maybe 20 years old?
- batteries seem to not be the best but the lens and the features are attractive and there is a digital option if I need one
- Seems to be not the most common system and that may cause issues later with secondhand availability and resale?

2. I can get two Contax 645 kits with grips and 45, 80, 120 and 210 lens all 9+ condition for the same as above if not a little less
- Main issue is this is a dead system and here in OZ servicing could be a real problem?
- Seems to me to really be the best 645 system and the lens are great, also there is digital options and seems there is alot of kit on ebay and other sources

I have had the systems for the last few days and only been able to get a couple of rolls back from the labs, it seems that the Contax was easier to work with the results are sharper mainly because they are in focus! I am using these handheld and have had a few issues as the Rollei only has the waist level finder so have found focusing a bit hard to adjust too.

The main argument seems to get down to the Rollei is a current and live system with great optics? the Contax most likely the best 645 system and great optics but a dead system!

As I said before any advice of reliability or other useful comments would be great as the results from both are wonderful and I am tending to like the Contax just worried for how long can I keep it going as a system?

thanks in advance

I think Graham is right you are the only one that can decide this. However, if you are thinking about getting or renting a digital back in the future the Contax is much easier to get a digital back for.

[ddk]

I like the Rolleis but preferred the Contax in the end. For me the Contax body handled better and I love their lenses and when you compare the price, they're real bargains, gifts actually. I don't see Contax as a dead system when they have such a complete glass line up and accessories available, add to that the possibility of using Hassy glass and you're covered. Not much to worry about servicing, for one Contax was built like a tank, 2nd at these prices and the abundance of parts on e-bay, you can always replace a body if you can't get it fixed.

[heinrichvoelkel]

If you do opt for the ROllei, there is a great battery upgrade which is cheap and makes a huge difference. See http://www.foto-z.com/blog/?p=72

Hello Graham, did you manage to find a charger for your upgraded battery? And how does this work? Do you care to post a Jpeg of the setup, I mean the battery in the charger. Just can't figure out, how this is suppossed to work with the battery you build?

Thanks in advance,

Heinrich

[Anthony R]

If I was still shooting film, it'd be a no contest: Contax. I did own and use one for 6+ years and, like a Mac, the user interface was fantastic. I know you're not considering it, but the Mamiya 645, to me, is a toy in comparison. I don't have experience with the Rollei, but I know the glass is supposed to be outstanding. I was never dissatisfied with the glass on the Contax however. As stated already, the system may be dead, but there are tons of used, pristine condition bodies and accessories everywhere. Buy two extra bodies for say $1400 if you're worried. I believe they made waist level finders, but they are hard to find, if you were interested.

[EricWHiss]

I looked at the contax before buying the Rollei.  The contax has a tiny viewfinder and neither one has a really fast AF.  I really like my rollei now.

[Graham Mitchell]

Hello Graham, did you manage to find a charger for your upgraded battery? And how does this work? Do you care to post a Jpeg of the setup, I mean the battery in the charger. Just can't figure out, how this is suppossed to work with the battery you build?

Thanks in advance,

Heinrich

Hi Heinrich, there are several battery chargers on the market which can be customized to charge all sorts of battery packs. I happen to use a Maha C777-PlusII, but any charger capable of charging NiMH cells should work. The original Rollei charger is only designed for NiCd cells.

I don't have a point and shoot unfortunately or I'd be hapy to take a quick snapshot. I can show you the charger however. There are sliding pins which can be aligned to fit the right contacts on the battery.

[william]

Here's my thoughts:

I used them both for many years.  When recently deciding to get back into medium format, I opted to go for the Contax.  Here's my reasons:

(1) AF is slow on both cameras, but it's more accurate on the Contax (less hunting).  

(2) Because my work doesn't often require high speed flash sync, the focal plane shutter of the Contax (1/4000th) is more useful to me than the top shutter speed of Rollei PQS lenses (1/1000th) for outdoor shooting.  When I'm shooting in the studio with strobes, the Contax's 125th flash sync is fine with me.

(3) The used prices for most Rollei lenses are significantly higher than for Contax lenses.  I put together my Contax system (body, battery grip, 80mm, 45mm, 120mm, and 140mm lenses) for less than $4000 from Keh.com.  The fact that you can now buy the 120mm used for around $1000 is crazy.  It's absolutely one of the best lenses I've ever used for any camera.

(4) For shooting portraits, I prefer the rendering of the Contax Zeiss lenses over either the Zeiss or Schneider lenses for Rollei.  There's no question that some of the Rollei lenses -- especially the Schneiders -- are sharper than the Contax lenses (other than the 120mm) in the sense that they resolve more information.  But resolution isn't the same as "look."  I just prefer the look of the Contax lenses for shooting people.

(5) I can use my Hasselblad 110mm f2.0 FE lens on the Contax via an adapter.

(6) I owned both the Rollei and the Contax at the same time for a couple of years.  Looking back thru my photos from that period, it's clear that I made noticeably better images with the Contax.  That could be for a variety of reasons, not all of which are related to which is a "better' camera in terms of objective image quality  (size, weight, "feel," etc).

All that said, I loved shooting with that big square waist level finder on the Rollei.  (Contax does have a waist level finder, but it's hard to find now.  And of course it's only really useful when shooting horizontally).  And you certainly can't fault the Rollei glass; objectively, it's extremely good.

EDIT: with regard to repairs and service, the last I heard, this company does Contax repairs:

http://tocad.com/service.html

One disturbing part, however, is this quote from their website:

" Contax N Digital, RTS III, U4R, I4R, SL300R T* and TVS Digital cameras and 645 lenses are sent to Contax Japan for estimate, approval and repair.  This process can take up to 90 days.  An estimate is provided free of cost even in the event the unit is not approved for repair."

Obviously, waiting "up to 90 days" isn't an option for a working pro.  In which case, I'd suggest just buying backups to the critical parts of the system because they're so inexpensive now.

[vgogolak]

I guess this is another opportunity to chime in on Contax, and on the lens side. I have every 645 Contax lens there is, and am moving from P45+ to P65+. So far I see no degradation due to glass. Also use many Hassey 500 lenses (including a fine 50mm 2.8 I got from Graham!  :-)

As I watch issues here about quality and QC of a certain 28mm lens, and recent poor examples in another forum on a recent TS 45mm (rhymes with 'I'll see ya'), it just reinforces my decision a year ago to stay with Contax.

There's a lot of 'life' in this reported 'dead' system

reminds me of a certain Mark Twain quote!

regrads
Victor

[Carsten W]

I guess this is another opportunity to chime in on Contax, and on the lens side. I have every 645 Contax lens there is, and am moving from P45+ to P65+. So far I see no degradation due to glass. Also use many Hassey 500 lenses (including a fine 50mm 2.8 I got from Graham!  :-)

I also really enjoy my Contax 645, but I have hit one of those little problems which drive it home that the system is no longer supported by its manufacturer: my mirror lockup button doesn't work. I can still use the 2s-timer-mirror lockup, which is probably what I would use anyway, but it does bother me. Does anyone have any experience with this problem? Is there a contact somewhere I can polish to revive it?

[Gigi]

Under the title of "that's what makes horse races...."

I'm chiming in on the Rollei side. I must agree for a DSLR, the Contax is appealing. The AF probably works better, and the camera has some great lenses, and a nice feel.

But the Rollei gives a lot more operational options, and with the WLF, one can really hand hold it at lower shutter speeds. Those Schneider lenses are really amazing - no edge drop off, no distortion, and both resolution and creaminess.

I once rented the Contax for a weekend, took it out to go shoot, and found all that weight on the right hand wrist... and it went back in the case, not to come out again. Somehow, we just didn't become good friends, altho with the best of intentions.

With the Rollei, its been a pal for about 15 years, altho I must say the best combo for me was the 6003 with the skinny film back, and WLF. THe lightest of the bunch, and smaller too. Otherwise they can get kind of big.

[vgogolak]

I also really enjoy my Contax 645, but I have hit one of those little problems which drive it home that the system is no longer supported by its manufacturer: my mirror lockup button doesn't work. I can still use the 2s-timer-mirror lockup, which is probably what I would use anyway, but it does bother me. Does anyone have any experience with this problem? Is there a contact somewhere I can polish to revive it?

where is the mirror lockup? I have always used to 2s time!

Victor

[Carsten W]

where is the mirror lockup? I have always used to 2s time!

Victor

The little black flush button in front of the dial with the 2s timer. Pressing it is meant to make the mirror go up, but mine doesn't. I have tried pushing with a thin object, reasonably hard, as it is not easy to push, but it just doesn't work.

[EricWHiss]

What I like about the Rollei is how many different lenses and accessories are still available.  I really make use of the remote shutter for example, and a lot of their macro stuff.  It's certainly a personal thing and I think some will like the contax better and some the rollei.  But at least you can still buy new 6008 AF and even their TLR.  Service in the US is pretty quick.

I never use the AF so can't blame that for any bad pictures.   Today I was shooting with polaroids with the polaroid back just for fun.  What's great is that a lot of the MF solutions allow for quick change between film and MFDB.

[Colorwave]

Here's another vote for Contax being an excellent deal.  I have two bodies, two prism finders and a waist level finder.  When one of the bodies develops a problem, I will most likely buy another body, as they are by far a better bargain than Contax lens shades or other bits that are less plentiful.  I think that you can still buy anything you need for them, but a few odds and ends are scarce enough that they fetch a higher price.  I really like the ergonomics and build quality, but the best part is the Zeiss glass in front.

[David Klepacki]

I have used both the 6008AF and Contax 645 systems.  They both have their strengths and weaknesses.  I think it comes down to whether you are mainly shooting studio or indoor and need the leaf shutter lenses for higher flash sync, or whether you want a wider range of shutter speeds (up to 1/4000 with the Contax) at the expense of a slower flash.

The 6008 system was always bulkier and heavier when I needed to travel.  It is the price you pay to have the larger (and brighter) 6x6 format.  I was also not happy with the proprietary battery system of the 6008.  You must lug around a large and bulky (and slow) charger for these special Rollei batteries.  On the other hand, the Contax batteries use easily found 2CR5, or with the optional vertical grip standard AA batteries.  This can be a real life saver when you need batteries immediately, especially on location.  

The Contax has a wider range of AF lenses, including a 35mm and a 45-90 zoom.  The widest AF lens for the 6008 is 50mm, and the Rollei 60-140 is much larger and heavier.   I never found the Rollei zoom lens to be practical in this respect, at least for me.  I also like the option of using Hasselblad V glass with the Contax system.  If you need any tilt/shift capability in the future, you will be limited with the Rollei 6008 to the very expensive 55 PCS lens (over USD8000 new).  The probability of finding this lens (and many other Rollei items) on the used market is often more difficult than finding any Contax accessory.  With the Contax, you can use a Hasselblad PC-Mutar, or the Super-Rotator lenses from Hartblei, at much less cost.  

I wouldn't worry to much about the "deadness" of the contax.  The build quality is outstanding, and can take a lot of abuse.  It is typically cheaper to just purchase replacement bodies on ebay and elsewhere when needed. And, Rollei service can be slow and expensive when out of the warranty period, especially for non-European countries.  As an example. it took two months to have my Rollei 110 lens to be CLA'ed in Germany.

Overall, I would recommend the less expensive Contax 645 system, and putting your money towards the best MFDB you can afford.  If you also shoot film, you can use the excellent vacuum 220 film back for the Contax, which pulls the film absolutely flat for edge to edge sharpness, and can make a real difference since film will be slightly curled when shot on the 6008AF.

[hobbsr]

Hi All,

Thanks so much for the valuable insights, i just wanted to add a couple of points:

1. My main application will be to shoot portraits and use for parts of a wedding day again people related. So I wanted good AF and to handhold the system.

2. I also would like to understand everyones view on building a system to last many many years what would be the important parts to make sure I have spares? is the main thing to have a spare body which of course I would get or is it equally important for the prisms and lens and backs? Any insights to the main elements that go first on electronic systems such as the Contax would be great to help build the shopping list.

Regards

PS I think that there should still be 5 years on the clock for support of Contax, I wish that someone could buy the brand usage and bring this system back as mentioned somewhere it is too good a system to send to the history pages.

[David Klepacki]

Hi All,

Thanks so much for the valuable insights, i just wanted to add a couple of points:

1. My main application will be to shoot portraits and use for parts of a wedding day again people related. So I wanted good AF and to handhold the system.

2. I also would like to understand everyones view on building a system to last many many years what would be the important parts to make sure I have spares? is the main thing to have a spare body which of course I would get or is it equally important for the prisms and lens and backs? Any insights to the main elements that go first on electronic systems such as the Contax would be great to help build the shopping list.

Regards

PS I think that there should still be 5 years on the clock for support of Contax, I wish that someone could buy the brand usage and bring this system back as mentioned somewhere it is too good a system to send to the history pages.

1.  For event / people shooting, I would recommend getting the Contax flash bracket.  I find that the ergonomics of hand holding the system are perfect with this bracket, at least for me.  This way, you can use either a prism or a waist level finder with your flash.  This bracket has integrated flash cable that attaches nicely to the side of the camera body.  I have never seen a prism fail, although I have seen the flash shoe on top of a prism fail.  So, having a flash bracket serves double duty as a backup flash shoe as well.  The vertical hand grip should also be considered, but it is not a necessity as it does add weight which takes its toll during a long day of hand held shooting.

2. It is rare for a Contax lens to fail (I have never seen one fail), especially since there is no internal leaf shutter.  So, I would say it is more important to have a spare body than a spare lens.  As mentioned above, I would recommend a flash bracket as opposed to a spare prism.  Having multiple film backs is nice, and they are inexpensive, so you should pick up a few of these as well, not so much because of failure, which again is rare, but to have various film types preloaded and ready to go.

As for a shopping list, based on your people shooting desires, I would recommend two bodies, 45, 80, 140 lenses, one prism, one flash bracket, some film backs, an optional vertical battery grip, and some flash equipment of your liking.  This is a typical minimal wedding setup that would today cost under USD6000 (depending on flash sophistication).  I also know one pro wedding shooter that does an entire wedding with the 45-90 zoom, so lens selection involves some personal choice.  The three primes above are the fastest and a more traditional lineup.