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Author Topic: What is medium format in the digital age?  (Read 10250 times)

Anders_HK

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What is medium format in the digital age?
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2009, 08:05:34 pm »

At moment I am reading Ansel's book the Negative. Indeed I believe he would have been thrilled with RAW, as a complement to film. It is an interesting book also with mind on digital.

When 6MP cameras came reputable names claimed they equalled 35mm film and that film was dead. Nowadays it is claimed that 12MP do. Are we not many who have been caught into belief that the newest and latest technology replace film and film formats and is incrementally superior to the last prior models of digital?

If P45 equals 4x5 I should be please that my Aptus 65 must be near equal to 4x5. With my eyes it is not. While my eyes and mind may be some that differ in view, granted they are in my 40's and sharp. A technical (digital) viewcamera does not give you same view or way as working as traditional viewcamera do. It is also $$$$. For one the image on groundglass is tiny. These and the attraction of 4x5 sized slides made me now venture into Shen Hao ...

Film and digital are different. They can complement.  

As an amateur I had enough of constant upgrade cycle. That has kept me away from photography by needing learn new camera between my photographic outings, and having my head stuck much too much time in forums about gear. With the Aptus I have what I can keep a long time and be content of image quality. That is also a consideration and to me as an advanced amateur an advantage with medium format in digital age, as compared to 35mm based digital...

Regards
Anders
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ErikKaffehr

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What is medium format in the digital age?
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2009, 01:15:27 am »

Hi!

All comparisons between digital and film depend on which film the comparison is based. Some films like T-MAX 100 have very high resolution. High MTF at high frequencies would be a better description than resolution, I just use a shorter word. So if we say that a certain camera is equivalent to film it's needed to discuss which film is the base of comparison. The other issue is the quality of the pixels and that depends on quite a few factors the infamous AA filter being one and "raw" convertion and sharpening another.

Michael Reichmann I think once mentioned that Kodak suggested that a pixel size of 5 microns would be achievable on MFDBs. If we go beyond that we get diminishing returns, because any pixels smaller than that would be limited by diffraction even at moderate apertures. On the other hand I have seen good arguments on this forum for the need of "AA" filters and that the best way to eliminate the need of the "AA" filtering is to oversample, that is use more pixels than the lens can resolve.

The other issue is that we have any number of ways to process digital images and I seriously believe that almost any effect that can be achieved in digital, at least as long we are comparing with transparency film. Another area where I actually think film may be better than digital is specular highlights. Film has a saturation behavior but digital clips, so with digital we need to expose for the highlights and that is not always possible.

Digital images are quite different from film based images, at least at low ISO there is no grain in a digital image. Grain can actually contribute to an image.

Fact seems to be that quite a few 4x5" photographers seem to switch over to digital MFDB. It may be that some return to film I don't know. Charles Cramer talked about the experience here on the Luminous Landscape Video Journal.

And finally that $$$$ part matters for most people.

I hope that you are going to be happy with your Aptus and your Shen Hao. I hope that you don't mind the question, but what are you doing with your 4x5" transparecies? When I was using my Pentax 67 it was intended for B&W, but soon enough I started shooting slide film, so I finished up buying a 6x7 slide projector hand made in Germany, it was absolutely gorgeous.

There is another dimension to this and that is craftmanship. Some people like you enjoy to "slow down" and the craftmanship of photographic work. That aspect is a very important factor especially for amateurs.

Best regards
Erik


Quote from: Anders_HK
When 6MP cameras came reputable names claimed they equalled 35mm film and that film was dead. Nowadays it is claimed that 12MP do. Are we not many who have been caught into belief that the newest and latest technology replace film and film formats and is incrementally superior to the last prior models of digital?

If P45 equals 4x5 I should be please that my Aptus 65 must be near equal to 4x5. With my eyes it is not. While my eyes and mind may be some that differ in view, granted they are in my 40's and sharp. A technical (digital) viewcamera does not give you same view or way as working as traditional viewcamera do. It is also $$$$. For one the image on groundglass is tiny. These and the attraction of 4x5 sized slides made me now venture into Shen Hao ...



Regards
Anders
« Last Edit: January 10, 2009, 01:52:37 am by ErikKaffehr »
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Anders_HK

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What is medium format in the digital age?
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2009, 07:27:49 am »

Amateurs, if we would have been smart we would have stuck with film! Digital is much higher $$$. Pros would have shot large amounts of film and is different for.

Digital has and is still a huge mountain of knowledge to climb. Film was simpler.

The next step to me as I am doing now is combining them... which camera to use when? Well... that is same as which lens to use when, (or in film days different formats?), simply get to know which one we prefer for when and in what situations.

4x5 slides? What to do with digital shots? Slides are in many ways simpler to file for future. And will last better... no constant backup... conversions...
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Gigi

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What is medium format in the digital age?
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2009, 08:56:54 am »

Quote from: Anders_HK
Amateurs, if we would have been smart we would have stuck with film! Digital is much higher $$$. Pros would have shot large amounts of film and is different for.

Digital has and is still a huge mountain of knowledge to climb. Film was simpler.

The next step to me as I am doing now is combining them... which camera to use when? Well... that is same as which lens to use when, (or in film days different formats?), simply get to know which one we prefer for when and in what situations.

4x5 slides? What to do with digital shots? Slides are in many ways simpler to file for future. And will last better... no constant backup... conversions...

Analog and digital - its a comparison that will go on for some time. One way to look at them is in the learning curves: you can gradually move up the analog curve, and learn bit by bit, at your own pace. If you fall back, you still have all the accomplishments in your learning you had before. Imagine once you have mastered making a print, you learn each time to make a slightly better print, but the learning is incremental.

Contrast this with the learning curve for digital, and that curve is much more dramatic: it comes with particular moments of big gain. Mastering digital processing is not casually done - there are several places where you have to really apply concentration and think it through. Consider gamut and color theory - it existed before, but didn't impact our work that much. Now, its almost essential to understand color theory to do digital color work. How did that happen? Sometimes its enjoyable, sometimes rather difficult.... but its a different pace/organization than analog learning.

Same applies elsewhere: another place to see this is in design fields: hand drawing vs. CAD in the design fields . If you hand draw something by hand, and are interrupted, if you've organized the drawing correctly (guidelines, then "bringing it up graduallly") you still have a drawing. In the CAD world, until you have outputted it, you have nothing... in the early days, this used to drive people nuts (and still does - about 5% of architecture students fail to make our final review due to printing problems!), but is largely solved.  On the other hand, for good looking work, fast, and the ability to make changes painlessly, nothing beats CAD. Both have their place.

Digital work flow has some spots where its "all or nothing". Its a subtle thing - as there are many other places where the digital world permits fine tuning and refinement far beyond the more mechanically oriented analog work flow. Imagines layers, curves, masks, channels, in the analog world - doable, but not easy. So in some realms, the digital is clearly superior work flow.  But overall, the learning curves are different.
   
Film seemed simpler, and in some ways, for most of us it was. The same issues may have existed at the top of the field (for some), but we could ignore them and still be happy with our work. Now.... things are both richer, more available, and perhaps harder. Clearly different.

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ErikKaffehr

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What is medium format in the digital age?
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2009, 05:11:27 pm »

Hi,

For me it's the other way around, at least since I'm shooting "raw". I can go back to my old picture which I may have taken in the "Provia" mood and convert them to the "Velvia" mood I'm in now. With film my misstakes were cut in stone, with digital I can make a lot of new misstakes.

With "raw" we have essentially all information the camera can see. We can select what we want to do with the image afterwards. Expose for the highlights, that's about it. B&W or color, Velvia, Agfachrome or even Futurechrome is a choice we can do in the raw processor. In ten years we can reprocess our images with new technology. Problem is that our "raw" format may not be around. That is a reason to work on a common ground, for now DNG. Let's hope that DNG is here to stay and that DNG will stay DNG forever. Forever is more than 36 months ;-(

Quote from: Geoffreyg
Analog and digital - its a comparison that will go on for some time. One way to look at them is in the learning curves: you can gradually move up the analog curve, and learn bit by bit, at your own pace. If you fall back, you still have all the accomplishments in your learning you had before. Imagine once you have mastered making a print, you learn each time to make a slightly better print, but the learning is incremental.

Contrast this with the learning curve for digital, and that curve is much more dramatic: it comes with particular moments of big gain. Mastering digital processing is not casually done - there are several places where you have to really apply concentration and think it through. Consider gamut and color theory - it existed before, but didn't impact our work that much. Now, its almost essential to understand color theory to do digital color work. How did that happen? Sometimes its enjoyable, sometimes rather difficult.... but its a different pace/organization than analog learning.

Same applies elsewhere: another place to see this is in design fields: hand drawing vs. CAD in the design fields . If you hand draw something by hand, and are interrupted, if you've organized the drawing correctly (guidelines, then "bringing it up graduallly") you still have a drawing. In the CAD world, until you have outputted it, you have nothing... in the early days, this used to drive people nuts (and still does - about 5% of architecture students fail to make our final review due to printing problems!), but is largely solved.  On the other hand, for good looking work, fast, and the ability to make changes painlessly, nothing beats CAD. Both have their place.

Digital work flow has some spots where its "all or nothing". Its a subtle thing - as there are many other places where the digital world permits fine tuning and refinement far beyond the more mechanically oriented analog work flow. Imagines layers, curves, masks, channels, in the analog world - doable, but not easy. So in some realms, the digital is clearly superior work flow.  But overall, the learning curves are different.
   
Film seemed simpler, and in some ways, for most of us it was. The same issues may have existed at the top of the field (for some), but we could ignore them and still be happy with our work. Now.... things are both richer, more available, and perhaps harder. Clearly different.
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Justan

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What is medium format in the digital age?
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2009, 12:18:57 pm »

Thanks very much for all for these thoughtful comments.

Does anyone have examples of a detailed photo taken with a few small to mid size digi cameras. Say 10 MP and up from there. It would be great to see these.

BTW I've taken some time to look through the references of those who have provided them in their sig. The collections are marvelous! They all speak to a very high degree of technical skill.

It appears that the minimal criteria for medium format is something > than 20 MP. Would any or all agree on this?

Dan Wells

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What is medium format in the digital age?
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2009, 06:30:39 pm »

Medium format refers primarily to the size of the image sensor. Right now, the lowest-resolution medium-format (larger than 24x36 mm) sensor I am aware of being manufactured new is the 28 mp Leaf (21-22 mp sensors were current until recently, and someone may still be building a back with one - there are certainly still some for sale, and I'm not sure whether they are all leftovers). The recent complication is that there are now 24x36mm DSLRs with resolution figures in that range. The image quality of the new Nikon D3x (which is somewhat higher than other 20+ mp DSLRs so far, both from user experiences and technical measurements) is proving to be very comparable to the medium-format backs at 31mp and below, all of which (with the possible exception of the 28 mp Leaf) use older sensor designs. The new 24x36 mm DSLRs have not removed the rationale for medium format, but they HAVE moved it up the resolution line - a 31 mp camera for $18,000 makes little sense with a 24+mp camera as good as the D3x going for $8000 (not to mention lower-end 20+ mp cameras with still very good image quality under $3000). I would predict that the MF systems 31 mp and under will soon be gone from new sales. However, nothing less expensive will touch the quality of a 50+ mp MF setup (and the laws of physics do a pretty good job ensuring that nothing with a smaller sensor ever will). We're getting close to some real limits around 30 mp (plus or minus 5) in 24x36 mm, and MF will allow for something more than double that, depending on how big the sensor actually is.

                             -Dan
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Anders_HK

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What is medium format in the digital age?
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2009, 09:35:17 pm »

Lets be sure not to confuse megapixel with sensor/film area...

The area of the capture area is one of key attributes of medium format (relation to lens, DOF etc). Also the proportions of that area has until now been a character of medium format (although some P&S now use 6x7 proportions). Megapixels is something camera industry has stuck to us as important, which is rather nonsense in a discussion of different camera formats... Or... should we compare the latest P&S to DSLRS??? Or should we discuss low grain 35mm film compared to large grain 645 film???

Lets wake up, there is far more than pixels. Older medium format sensors are perhaps lagging because of noise, but not image quality at optimum (low) ISO and good light. Even the rather recent 22MP digital backs still have very superior quality to DSLRs, check Frank Doorhof's images as example.

A medium format camera is also a different shooting experience, slower, more planned. Not like a machine gun as DSLRs.

Both Leaf and Phase One sensors of around 28MP and up are newer than 22MP generations, which were newer than 18MP generations. Compared to DSLRs the quality of the images captured by those sensors tend to be different and higher DR, but less good high ISO performance, althogh much improved by newer sensors.

Interesting is also the Foveon sensor for Sigmas... it would be nice to see sensors of that type for the full frame 645 capture area... even if only 20MP  

Regards
Anders
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