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Author Topic: Capture and Output Sharpening  (Read 3193 times)

Philip Weber

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Capture and Output Sharpening
« on: December 31, 2008, 04:09:37 pm »

Like everyone, I am looking to keep my workflow as streamlined as possible, hence my question. I run LR 2.2 and do most of what I need to the RAW file in it. I soft proof and tweak in CS4 (with the PKS plug-in, among others) and print back in LR (as a TIFF file).

My question is whether to apply the capture sharpening in LR, sync the sharpening to all the open RAW images, then just apply the print sharpening as a part of my print user templates at the very end...OR...are there any advantages to leaving the sharpening process out of LR all together and just run the PKS plug-in in Photoshop, like I used to before LR integrated PKS.

I understand it is all basically Photo Kit Sharpener but if there are no technical advantages, it seems like LR would do it faster than image by image in CS4.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions with this and a Happy New Year to everyone!

Phil
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ErikKaffehr

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Capture and Output Sharpening
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2008, 08:30:13 pm »

Hy,

My view is that doing all sharpening in LR is simpler and should give equivalent results. I would still use PKS for creative sharpening, if needed. Some pretty nice filters in PKS!

Best regards
Erik

Quote from: Philip Weber
Like everyone, I am looking to keep my workflow as streamlined as possible, hence my question. I run LR 2.2 and do most of what I need to the RAW file in it. I soft proof and tweak in CS4 (with the PKS plug-in, among others) and print back in LR (as a TIFF file).

My question is whether to apply the capture sharpening in LR, sync the sharpening to all the open RAW images, then just apply the print sharpening as a part of my print user templates at the very end...OR...are there any advantages to leaving the sharpening process out of LR all together and just run the PKS plug-in in Photoshop, like I used to before LR integrated PKS.

I understand it is all basically Photo Kit Sharpener but if there are no technical advantages, it seems like LR would do it faster than image by image in CS4.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions with this and a Happy New Year to everyone!

Phil
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Erik Kaffehr
 

Mark D Segal

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Capture and Output Sharpening
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2008, 09:37:10 pm »

Quote from: Philip Weber
I understand it is all basically Photo Kit Sharpener but if there are no technical advantages, it seems like LR would do it faster than image by image in CS4.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions with this and a Happy New Year to everyone!

Phil

Phil, happy New Year to you too.

Whether you do your capture sharpening in LR or in PS, I would recommend going image by image anyhow, because the optimal capture sharpening settings would vary according to the character of the image data. Output Sharpening is a more mechanical process, but even here, it is good to check for over or under-sharpening once the preset is applied.

Mark
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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ErikKaffehr

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Capture and Output Sharpening
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2009, 03:13:47 am »

Hi,

A more technical comment. According to Jeff Schewe LR presharpening is pretty similar to PKS but with more control for the user and the sharpening algorithms are more refined. The additional refinement is coming from  a close cooperation between code developers at Adobe and the Pixel Genius folks.

Regarding the sharpening for output there are a couple of advantages.

1) The sharpening should be applied when the image size is known, LR knows the image size, no room for mistakes.
2) The image could be resampled before printing, but this resampling is on the fly in LR
3) The resampling algorithm in LR is a Lanzos variant and is arguably better then Bicubic softer in PS

Best regards
Erik

Quote from: Philip Weber
Like everyone, I am looking to keep my workflow as streamlined as possible, hence my question. I run LR 2.2 and do most of what I need to the RAW file in it. I soft proof and tweak in CS4 (with the PKS plug-in, among others) and print back in LR (as a TIFF file).

My question is whether to apply the capture sharpening in LR, sync the sharpening to all the open RAW images, then just apply the print sharpening as a part of my print user templates at the very end...OR...are there any advantages to leaving the sharpening process out of LR all together and just run the PKS plug-in in Photoshop, like I used to before LR integrated PKS.

I understand it is all basically Photo Kit Sharpener but if there are no technical advantages, it seems like LR would do it faster than image by image in CS4.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions with this and a Happy New Year to everyone!

Phil
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Erik Kaffehr
 

Mark D Segal

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Capture and Output Sharpening
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2009, 08:32:06 am »

Quote from: ErikKaffehr
Hi,

A more technical comment. According to Jeff Schewe LR presharpening is pretty similar to PKS but with more control for the user and the sharpening algorithms are more refined. The additional refinement is coming from  a close cooperation between code developers at Adobe and the Pixel Genius folks.

Regarding the sharpening for output there are a couple of advantages.

1) The sharpening should be applied when the image size is known, LR knows the image size, no room for mistakes.
2) The image could be resampled before printing, but this resampling is on the fly in LR
3) The resampling algorithm in LR is a Lanzos variant and is arguably better then Bicubic softer in PS

Best regards
Erik

Erik, it would be good to hear from Jeff on this, meanwhile thoughts on your three points:

1) PK Inkjet Output Sharpener in Photoshop reminds you of the pixel dimensions and you select the sharpener accordingly. One can make mistakes but (a) this seldom happens in the hands of careful users, and (2) if it does, it isn't necessarily a train-smash. It is also nice to know that once the sharpening is done you have flexibility to alter its strength using the layers it creates.

2) If LR is resampling on the fly to print, one wonders whether the sharpening is also adjusted on the fly, or whether the sharpener sharpens to a known stable output resoution. Here is where Jeff may be able to help us.

3) Resampling is a separate issue. Normally, I don't resample to print, but if I need to, it is most often downsampling to smaller file dimensions in which case one would use Bi-cubic sharper in Photoshop, and this works very well.

Mark
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....."

sesshin

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Capture and Output Sharpening
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2009, 04:13:14 pm »

Can someone explain to me why downsampling in Photoshop using bicubic sharper is preferable to just printing in Lightroom with an image that has 480+ ppi and resampling it to 480ppi? This is what I have been doing, mainly because I'm just trying to keep as much in LR as possible, but if it produces a sharper image than it's worth it.
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Mark D Segal

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Capture and Output Sharpening
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2009, 05:00:49 pm »

In reality, it may not matter, but that's something you can test making one print of the same (preferably high frequency) image in each of the two workflows and comparing them.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Schewe

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Capture and Output Sharpening
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2009, 05:05:50 pm »

Quote from: ErikKaffehr
3) The resampling algorithm in LR is a Lanzos variant and is arguably better then Bicubic softer in PS


No, not since LR 2.2 was released. LR & CR now use an adaptive Bicubic algorithm; Bicubic Sharper for downsampling and Bicubic normal for small upsamples and a blend into Bicubic Smoother when the resample % increases...by the time your at about 200% it's all Bicubic Smoother.

And yes, the output sharpening is being done at the final output size and PPI whether you do or don't resample...
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Philip Weber

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Capture and Output Sharpening
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2009, 05:39:04 pm »

My thanks to everyone for their input. It appears there is no advantage to either but just a matter of workflow preference.

Phil
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