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Author Topic: EPSON-compatible ink cartridges: any experience?  (Read 7095 times)

dnone

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EPSON-compatible ink cartridges: any experience?
« on: December 30, 2008, 08:17:47 am »

Hi there,

Does anybody have experience - positive or negative - using compatible ink cartridges for EPSON printers, specifically the R800?

Am doing a lot of printing and would like to reduce printing costs if possible - obviously without loosing quality or damaging the printer.

THX in advance!

Happy NEW YEAR as well

dan
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Peter McLennan

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EPSON-compatible ink cartridges: any experience?
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2008, 05:51:09 pm »

If you intend on keeping your Epson printer and would like to decrease your ink costs by a factor of four, I'd suggest a continuous inking system over "compatible" carts.

http://www.inksupply.com/cfs_r800_new.cfm

I have four Epson printers running CIS systems, some for nearly a decade, with very few problems.

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Marlyn

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EPSON-compatible ink cartridges: any experience?
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2008, 06:39:55 pm »

Quote from: dnone
obviously without loosing quality or damaging the printer.

These are the 2 biggest stumbling blocks.

Epson Ultrachrome Inks, and the newer ones (K3, Viveria etc), are very well tested for their longevity, print permenance, gammut, etc etc.   I suggest checking on Whilelm Research site for reviews on 3rd party inks.  All the ones I have read have been pretyt much scathing.   i.e.  http://www.wilhelm-research.com/dpn/DPNow_...EuropeanInk.pdf  and http://www.wilhelm-research.com/hardcopy/W...ests2006_05.pdf

On the second point, I'd bet good money using 3rd party inks instantly voids the warrenty on the printer.   Print heads are incredibly precise devices, measuring droplet sizes into the pico-liters. These heards are tuned to the specific properties of their Inks.  I belive newer Inks in new printers mean different heads.  Any differences with the 3rd party inks = problems.

My personal oppinion is, yes you run a real risk of damaging the printer,  and yes you will have reduced quality.  We pay a lot of money for these finely tuned peices of equipment and Inks and IMO using 3rd party inks is crippling them back to 'run-of-the-mill-dime-a-dozen' printers,  rather than high quality photo-printers.

Please note I have never tried, as no 3rd party Ink is ever comming close to getting inside any of my 3 Epson Inkjet printers.  (R210, 3800, 7800), and I am a self confessed Epson fan.


As always, YMMV.

Regards

Mark.



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dnone

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EPSON-compatible ink cartridges: any experience?
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2009, 07:22:21 am »

THX for yout input Peter.

Really enjoyed reading some of your other posts on this and other topics.

will give it a go with the CIS/CFS system.

any tricks/issues with the system from your long experience with it?
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NikoJorj

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EPSON-compatible ink cartridges: any experience?
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2009, 07:49:16 am »

Quote from: Marlyn
I suggest checking on Whilelm Research site for reviews on 3rd party inks.  All the ones I have read have been pretyt much scathing.   i.e.  http://www.wilhelm-research.com/dpn/DPNow_...EuropeanInk.pdf  and http://www.wilhelm-research.com/hardcopy/W...ests2006_05.pdf
I wouldn't associate all third-party inks with the crappy 3c's office ones tested in any Wilhelm's publication.
For longevity testing of 3rd party inks, I'd rather suggest to go there : http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/acceleratedagingtests.html

There, you can separate the tares from the wheat : there is one el-cheapo "office compatible" dye ink (signal ink in R265) faring horridly, and reputable 3rd-party inks (MIS, InkJetFly, Image SpĂȘcialists, Lyson) who fare much bettre( not as good as OEM but nat that far either, way way better that Wilhelm's tests).

I personally use an InkJetFly CIS in my Epson  R1800.
There were a few quirks (essentially a few more head cleanings), the black is lighter, permanence seems good but a bit less than OEM, the ink color gamut is the same, ink price is 10 (ten) times less and CIS price is paid with 1 set of OEM cartridges  : I'm very glad of this overall balance.
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Nicolas from Grenoble
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Farmer

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EPSON-compatible ink cartridges: any experience?
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2009, 03:32:53 pm »

Quote from: NikoJorj
I personally use an InkJetFly CIS in my Epson  R1800.
There were a few quirks (essentially a few more head cleanings), the black is lighter, permanence seems good but a bit less than OEM, the ink color gamut is the same, ink price is 10 (ten) times less and CIS price is paid with 1 set of OEM cartridges  : I'm very glad of this overall balance.

How can the colour gamut possibly be the same if the black is lighter?  Do InkjetFly provide ICC profiles?
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Phil Brown

NikoJorj

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EPSON-compatible ink cartridges: any experience?
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2009, 04:44:33 pm »

Quote from: Farmer
How can the colour gamut possibly be the same if the black is lighter?  Do InkjetFly provide ICC profiles?
Incorrect statement from me, sorry : the surface of gamut at L=50 (where the colors are most saturated) is equal.
Of course there can't be as much in the shadows... though to the naked eye, the blacks seem still good.

The ICC profiles provided by IJF are sub-par (not quite neutral and some gradient/mushing problems) - it may be the only weakness in their otherwise excellent service. Be prepared to make some or to have someone competent making them for you.
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Nicolas from Grenoble
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Peter McLennan

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EPSON-compatible ink cartridges: any experience?
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2009, 06:59:12 pm »

Quote from: dnone
THX for yout input Peter.
any tricks/issues with the system from your long experience with it?

I can heartily recommend the ink and hardware from MIS Associates at www.inksupply.com.  I installed one of their systems and their K4 inkset in my 4800 in the summer of 08 and I now happily print with hardly a thought to the cost of ink.  With all the CIS's I've used, the systems were easy to install and charge with ink and what little help I needed was readily available from the vendors.  This applies to both Mediastreet and MIS Associates.

I had my favourite matte paper and the new inks profiled by Cathy's profiles and I'm delighted with the colour fidelity I'm now producing.  Judging my the reactions of my (admittedly non-technical) audience, it's been a worthwhile conversion. With apologies to all who poo poo third party inks, I have to say this: The prints look amazing, both colour and monochrome.  I don't own, nor do I know how to use, an instrument to accurately measure the prints' colour or density, but I do know that they appear to my eyes every bit as good as those made with the OEM inks.  Now retired, I was a professional photographer (cinematographer) for over 30 years.

As for longevity, I've written before that any of the pigment ink prints I've made with any of my CIS-equipped printers have so far visually outlasted several framed, professionally processed Cibachrome prints that hang in the same environment in my home.  Arguing about whether third-party inks will last for 50 years or 100 or 200 years is simply playing in to the hands of the marketing droids - the same droids that claim 300X zoom lenses on camcorders.

Like many other 4800 owners, I found that my printer was prone to clogging.  If I didn't use the printer for more than a week or so, I faced an endlessly frustrating session of  nozzle cleanings, tests, more cleanings, more tests and more wasted time, ink and money.  What finally made me commit to the CIS was the purchase of yet another $50 "maintenance tank", the printer's receptacle for all that nozzle-cleaning ink.  I weighed a full and empty maintenance tank and was quite annoyed at how much expensive ink the printer had pumped overboard.  Now, with ink costs a fraction of what they were, I print much more frequently, have a lot more fun and haven't had a nozzle clog in months.  

As for Epson denying warranty claims for third party ink users, I doubt that they could make this stick unless they could point to the inks as the direct source of the problem.  However, my printers were all out of warranty when I did the conversions.  I did have a CIS-equipped 1160 die due to a clogged black channel.  I hadn't used it frequently enough and I couldn't recover it by the usual techniques.  I told the Epson repair facility what had happened, including the use of third party inks, and they attempted to clear the head for me to no avail.  A new head cost more than the printer's purchase price, so I moved on.

In short, for those who simply pass ink costs on to their clients, there's no advantage to a CIS other than convenience.  For those of us who print for our own pleasure, on our own dime, a CIS enables us to make big, luscious, prints at a cost that doesn't ruin all the fun.  Much like image-stablized telephoto lenses, it's a truly liberating investment.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2009, 07:00:33 pm by Peter McLennan »
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Farmer

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EPSON-compatible ink cartridges: any experience?
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2009, 07:44:10 pm »

Quote from: Peter McLennan
As for Epson denying warranty claims for third party ink users, I doubt that they could make this stick unless they could point to the inks as the direct source of the problem.  However, my printers were all out of warranty when I did the conversions.  I did have a CIS-equipped 1160 die due to a clogged black channel.  I hadn't used it frequently enough and I couldn't recover it by the usual techniques.  I told the Epson repair facility what had happened, including the use of third party inks, and they attempted to clear the head for me to no avail.  A new head cost more than the printer's purchase price, so I moved on.

If your paper feed motor dies, there's no real basis to deny warranty due to third party inks, but there might be cause to deny warranty on the carriage motor (for example) if you have a CIS since you've changed the load characteristics.  There's certainly a valid basis to deny warranty for any part of the actual ink system if a non-approved substance is passed through it.

That's simply an individual's choice, but something to be aware of.
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Phil Brown

Paul Roark

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EPSON-compatible ink cartridges: any experience?
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2009, 11:37:23 am »

Quote from: Marlyn
These are the 2 biggest stumbling blocks.

Epson Ultrachrome Inks, and the newer ones (K3, Viveria etc), are very well tested for their longevity, print permenance, gammut, etc etc.   I suggest checking on Whilelm Research site for reviews on 3rd party inks.  All the ones I have read have been pretyt much scathing.   ...

On the second point, I'd bet good money using 3rd party inks instantly voids the warrenty on the printer.  ...

Mark.

When I started mixing my own B&W inks I concluded I needed to do my own fade testing.  The MIS B&W mixes I've made easily beat Epson's "Advanced B&W" mode prints.  Livik did testing and rated one of the MIS B&W mixes at over 600 years.  He was then driven off the web by threats from an undisclosed ink company.  I've had 2 such threats, but being a former lawyer it's like "make my day."  They (not one of the "big three") backed down.  The Vivera gray is also looking like a blend of carbon and colors -- not a solid carbon that is virutally fade proof.  While I think the large companies do have the best color inks, there is no magic out there.  Third party pigmented inks can be very good, but these small companies can't afford to have Wilhelm test their inks.  I've used MIS inks for some years now with very good results.

Using third party inks does  not void the warranties.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
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Farmer

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EPSON-compatible ink cartridges: any experience?
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2009, 04:57:36 pm »

Quote from: Paul Roark
When I started mixing my own B&W inks I concluded I needed to do my own fade testing.  The MIS B&W mixes I've made easily beat Epson's "Advanced B&W" mode prints.  Livik did testing and rated one of the MIS B&W mixes at over 600 years.  He was then driven off the web by threats from an undisclosed ink company.  I've had 2 such threats, but being a former lawyer it's like "make my day."  They (not one of the "big three") backed down.  The Vivera gray is also looking like a blend of carbon and colors -- not a solid carbon that is virutally fade proof.  While I think the large companies do have the best color inks, there is no magic out there.  Third party pigmented inks can be very good, but these small companies can't afford to have Wilhelm test their inks.  I've used MIS inks for some years now with very good results.

Using third party inks does  not void the warranties.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Well that really depends, Paul.  In Australia, if the third party inks cause damage to the printer (and there plenty of cases where they have - I'm sure you're aware that many of the cheaper ones are in fact very bad) then it voids the warranty.  If you mechanically alter the product (ie installation of a CIS) then you void warranty.  That may not be the case where you are, but your blanket statement is certainly going to be wrong in places :-)

In regard to, "The MIS B&W mixes I've made easily beat Epson's "Advanced B&W" mode prints." in what way did they beat them?  What RIP were you using to lay down the images?  Were the images in RGB or Greyscale?  How did you determine neutrality of the prints?  I'm sorry, but that's again such a vague and broad claim that it begs asking these questions.  I don't doubt you're getting excellent results, but some detail of what you're actually saying would be useful!
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Phil Brown

Paul Roark

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EPSON-compatible ink cartridges: any experience?
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2009, 11:35:08 pm »

Quote from: Farmer
...
In regard to, "The MIS B&W mixes I've made easily beat Epson's "Advanced B&W" mode prints." in what way did they beat them?  ...

This is getting a bit far afield of the original subject, but I think it is worth this follow-up.

The dedicated B&W inksets based on MIS pigments and sold by MIS (mostly designed by me -- for free) use the least amount of color and most carbon to achieve the particular tones desired.  The Epson "Advanced B&W" mode prints use lots of color inks.  The color inks are not nearly as stable as the carbon inks.   I've placed some support for this at http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R1800-Lightfastness.pdf  

So, it's relatively easy to make an inkset using mostly carbon pigments and minimal color pigments that are more fade resistant than the Epson ABW B&W prints.  Also, with less color ink, the metamerism will be less.

The more neutral shades one uses, the smoother the print can be also.  So, when we pull the color out and put in either pure carbon or carbon that is mixed (shaded or toned) with color pigments, we can achieve smoother prints.

Those of us who use dedicated B&W inksets use all sorts of workflows, including "color managed" (usually just with respect to relative densities, not color) and high bit depth -- neither of which Epson has achieved with its "Advanced B&W" mode workflow.

B&W printers hang out on the forum at http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Digital...dWhiteThePrint/   While many there use ABW mode printing, many also use all sorts of other workflows and inksets, and have been successfully doing so for a number of years.  They can be far cheaper and better in many respects than the OEM B&W solutions.  Color is where the OEM focus is, not B&W.  So, this little B&W niche has, and hopefully will always have, experimenters who enjoy pushing the envelope and beating the OEMs -- sometimes at a fraction of the cost.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

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Farmer

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EPSON-compatible ink cartridges: any experience?
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2009, 06:50:50 pm »

Thanks for the extra info, Paul.

Do you use any colour?  If not, how do you compensate for paper colour (or do you not)?
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Phil Brown

Chris Meyer

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EPSON-compatible ink cartridges: any experience?
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2009, 07:49:22 pm »

I used G&G inks with my 4000 (RIP) and was happy. Others I consulted suggested they were Image Specialist inks loaded into Chinese carts. The issue, though, was that G&G inks didn't print as dense as the Epson inks; I either had to fudge with the print settings, or just get fresh profiles made (thank you, Hawk Mountain). The 4000 _was_ a beast for head clogs, but that seems to happen regardless of ink type.

good luck -
Chris

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