What is a fair price for a use p21+?

[evgeny]

I don't know what the dealer situation is around where you live, but the Sinar eMotion 54 LV has recently dropped in price, and ought to be around that price. It is a 22MP back with 36x48mm size, and user-exchangeable adapters. Now, your dealer network might add a fee on that to push the price out of your range, or you might have no dealer around you who sells Sinar at all, but it would be worth considering.

A like new Sinar eMotion 54 LV was sold Dec-15-08 on eBay for $6,538.21 (32 bids, GBP 4,480.99 started from GBP 1.00).
It's the best 22MP, still in production, digital back today in my opinion, may worth that price (today), if can be found for a $6K in such condition it's a steal deal.

[ziocan]

Anton my man, this is the point that I was making.  That you can find deals through end users that need the cash but that does not mean that your price points are correct.   In fact, you can't post a price on a DB and say this is "market rate".  There are too many factors that affect pricing on a digital back.  For Phase One DB's specifically....

1) What is the warranty left?  
2) Classic or Value Added?  
3) Has the free swap occurred or do you still have a swap left?
4) What is the shot count?
5) If it is a non plus, has it had the live focus firmware upgrade?
6) Does it come with C1 Pro?  Will it have a valid C1 DB code?
7) Will you get dealer product and tech support?

So yes, deals can be found out there.  But a 60,000 shot count, no warranty, no support, no C1 pro software digital back will be substantially cheaper then the same exact model and mount with all that I listed.

Anyone discounting the value of buying from a dealer should look at examples lately on this board.   We should be thought of as a resource and a business partner.  We will go to all lengths to help our customers and we have the manufacturer's partnership and ear for issues.

I agree with you.
If you add most of the above points to the 7500$ ebay value for a p30 back, you will end well above the price that a dealer is asking for a reconditioned back with the warranty and support included.
Buying a 7500$ p30 back without warranty and support, would be like buying a Nikon D3x or equivalent Canon for 7500$, without warranty, support, with a few thousands captures already made, old batteries and no software. I wonder who would think that is a good deal.
7500$ is still a considerable amount of money, for buying something that may run in trouble of becoming a paper weight and not being covered.

[evgeny]

$4,499.95  Item number: 350147031713

This BUY IT NOW is for a Hasselblad Imacon Ixpress Digital Back Model 384. It is in Excellent+ condition with hardly any signs of wear! This fantastic digital back offers multishot functionality for extra versatility in the studio. With the 384C the professional photographer can shoot single shot, 4 shot or Hasselblad\'s patented 4*Res, producing beautiful files up to 384MB in size. It comes with the Ixpress Image Bank with a storage capacity of up to 1150 high-resolution images and power for up to 8 hours of constant shooting.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Hasselblad-Imacon-Ixpr...%3A1|240%3A1318

Edited to add:    shutterblade is a very reputable seller. I bought from him a 45-90 Contax 645 lens, it was a good deal.

[Ben Rubinstein]

I agree with you.
If you add most of the above points to the 7500$ ebay value for a p30 back, you will end well above the price that a dealer is asking for a reconditioned back with the warranty and support included.
Buying a 7500$ p30 back without warranty and support, would be like buying a Nikon D3x or equivalent Canon for 7500$, without warranty, support, with a few thousands captures already made, old batteries and no software. I wonder who would think that is a good deal.
7500$ is still a considerable amount of money, for buying something that may run in trouble of becoming a paper weight and not being covered.

How often do these things go wrong and how much is repair? If I buy a 2nd hand pro DSLR there is little likelyhood that anything other than perhaps the shutter will need replacing and that only if it has a high shot count, for a MFDB with a fraction of the moving parts, once it's working does the added cost really equal the potential cost of repair? Are these very expensive machines that unreliable, that bad a bet 2nd hand? What exactly wears out on these backs through use? Honest question.

I once went into a store selling grey market with a store warranty. I didn't trust them particularly (had a bad experience with them) and told them so. The guy laughed and said, what's the most you would have to spend on getting a lens repaired, because we're still cheaper after that repair than you would get the lens new elsewhere and you still get a warranty whether you trust it or not. Was food for thought at the time!

[Dustbak]

How often do these things go wrong and how much is repair? If I buy a 2nd hand pro DSLR there is little likelyhood that anything other than perhaps the shutter will need replacing and that only if it has a high shot count, for a MFDB with a fraction of the moving parts, once it's working does the added cost really equal the potential cost of repair? Are these very expensive machines that unreliable, that bad a bet 2nd hand? What exactly wears out on these backs through use? Honest question.

I once went into a store selling grey market with a store warranty. I didn't trust them particularly (had a bad experience with them) and told them so. The guy laughed and said, what's the most you would have to spend on getting a lens repaired, because we're still cheaper after that repair than you would get the lens new elsewhere and you still get a warranty whether you trust it or not. Was food for thought at the time!

I have bought 2nd hand backs (as well as new) over the last 6 years and most of the time nothing goes wrong. This year I have had my first break down (a newly bought back!). A processor board needed replacement which set me back 3K USD (the back was already out of warranty by several months ). I have owned about 10 different backs and none of them ever had any problem.

It was a bad year anyway with also a H body breaking down  I guess I have had my bad year of repairs and after 10 years of no failures with any piece of gear I guess this had to happen sooner or later.

[david o]

all that make sens to a point... but today if I will to buy a "new" ZD back in Canada with one year warranty... the price is set at $12000 almost TWICE as much as the previous version.... Little steep... and actually completely stupid.

Though I can still buy a Demo Kodak DCS at $9000 - better deal no?

so sure I'd rather 10 times buy something from ebay even without warranty and take a small risk to have a break down... So far in Canada not too many option. The official dealer prices make no sens.

I don't even talk about the phase prices.

that is the price we Can. have to pay for a monopoly

[ziocan]

I have bought 2nd hand backs (as well as new) over the last 6 years and most of the time nothing goes wrong. This year I have had my first break down (a newly bought back!). A processor board needed replacement which set me back 3K USD (the back was already out of warranty by several months ). I have owned about 10 different backs and none of them ever had any problem.

It was a bad year anyway with also a H body breaking down  I guess I have had my bad year of repairs and after 10 years of no failures with any piece of gear I guess this had to happen sooner or later.

Then it seems like these DB makers are right to charge what they charge, since those backs never fail.  

[studio-techno]

I think this can help you :

Phase One P20 Digital Back for Mamiya 645AFD   3200 $ from    Calumetphoto  


Phase One P45 Digital Back for Hasselblad H Series    US $8,400.00       Calumetphoto

[ziocan]

I think this can help you :

Phase One P20 Digital Back for Mamiya 645AFD   3200 $ from    Calumetphoto  


Phase One P45 Digital Back for Hasselblad H Series    US $8,400.00       Calumetphoto

There was another p45 for Hasselblad from Calumet which went for 10500$ the same day. It is more or less what I paid for my P30 like new with almost zero captures, all the stickers still on, live view upgrade, new model battery charger, all the frills than comes with a purchase of a new Phase back, and all the warranties. yet, I do not think those from calumet have any software. warranty and support. well, maybe 3 months. who needs that anyway. right?  

I have to say that when I saw that p45 going for 10 grands it made me wonder about my purchase a little.

[Kumar]

Software for all the DBs is free, and available for download at the manufacturer's site by simply registering the back in your name. Does C1Pro add any functionality when used only with PhaseOne backs? If you don't need it for any other cameras, what's the reason to buy it??

Kumar

[Alex MacPherson]

I think this can help you :

Phase One P20 Digital Back for Mamiya 645AFD   3200 $ from    Calumetphoto  


Phase One P45 Digital Back for Hasselblad H Series    US $8,400.00       Calumetphoto

both are sold  

[Alex MacPherson]

$4,499.95  Item number: 350147031713

This BUY IT NOW is for a Hasselblad Imacon Ixpress Digital Back Model 384. It is in Excellent+ condition with hardly any signs of wear! This fantastic digital back offers multishot functionality for extra versatility in the studio. With the 384C the professional photographer can shoot single shot, 4 shot or Hasselblad\'s patented 4*Res, producing beautiful files up to 384MB in size. It comes with the Ixpress Image Bank with a storage capacity of up to 1150 high-resolution images and power for up to 8 hours of constant shooting.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Hasselblad-Imacon-Ixpr...%3A1|240%3A1318

Edited to add:    shutterblade is a very reputable seller. I bought from him a 45-90 Contax 645 lens, it was a good deal.

Much too slow for fashion photography

[Alex MacPherson]

A like new Sinar eMotion 54 LV was sold Dec-15-08 on eBay for $6,538.21 (32 bids, GBP 4,480.99 started from GBP 1.00).
It's the best 22MP, still in production, digital back today in my opinion, may worth that price (today), if can be found for a $6K in such condition it's a steal deal.

THAT is what I am looking for ... a sweet deal like that  

[bcooter]

THAT is what I am looking for ... a sweet deal like that  

Unless you buy one of these backs out of the trunk of some guys car at the airport, or from a catalog house under the bridge that is still running old G4's your probably better off saving 3 grand and going used, warranty or not.

Haven't you seen the Phase One videos.  Heck they cook their backs on a George Forman Grill and drive a car over them or something like that, so unless you leave it outside in the rain, it's probably going to be OK.

It all depends on what type of service you need.  If your new to digital capture, or don't know the workings of the system, then yes a good dealer can be worth the extra expense.

Honestly the value added thing somewhat bothers me.  I don't mind paying for service, I don't mind paying a premium for a an extended warranty, but at the costs of most of these items 2 years minimum should be standard and once again, if you drop it, it's going to be on you anyway.

Personally I know CI is a good dealer and will stand behind their service, but I'm not that wild about  Phase's system of the dealer is the first line of defense.  I would much rather go straight to the maker or the distributor's tech service and get a resolve.   Filing a support claim with a dealer, then waiting for Phase to respond to them, who must in turn respond to you is just another delay that nobody has time for.

I recently had a new Canon take a heavy bump and go into repair.  It was fixed same day at cost to me and since it was my fault I just accepted the costs.  Yes it's under warranty but warranty shouldn't cover my mistake, just product defects.

Breaking stuff then paying to fix it is just part of running your own business.

[abcdefghi_rstuvwxyz]

An Ixpress V96C ebay-ed for $7500 about 10 months ago, and now ebay-ed for ~$4500.  40% down.
A 22MP MFDB costed ~$19000 10 months ago now costs ~$9000 from any rental store. For ebay,  $7500 should be a reasonable price.
It could be expected in another 10 months, any 22MP untethered MFDG sfor ~$4500 should be a common sense.

[Alex MacPherson]

Are Leaf Valeo 22wi any good?

The price seems right. How fast do they shoot? I think I saw 1.2s per capture.

[Dustbak]

Are Leaf Valeo 22wi any good?

The price seems right. How fast do they shoot? I think I saw 1.2s per capture.

A Valeo22wi can only be used tethered or with a digital magazine. Not the most ideal solution if you want to be totally free in your movements. It doesn't have a screen though you can use it with an Ipaq and get a preview on it but beware many people have experienced problems with the reliability/stability of the Bluetooth connection. If those don't bother you a Valeo is a great back (I used a Valeo11 & Valeo17).

I suggest you look for either an Aptus17 or 22 in that case. Both are fantastic backs (I used to use an A17).

If speed is a real issue to you I suggest saving for the 54s. By far the fastest back you can get if I am not mistaken (I sometimes still dream of that one ).

[paul_jones]

A Valeo22wi can only be used tethered or with a digital magazine. Not the most ideal solution if you want to be totally free in your movements. It doesn't have a screen though you can use it with an Ipaq and get a preview on it but beware many people have experienced problems with the reliability/stability of the Bluetooth connection. If those don't bother you a Valeo is a great back (I used a Valeo11 & Valeo17).

I suggest you look for either an Aptus17 or 22 in that case. Both are fantastic backs (I used to use an A17).

If speed is a real issue to you I suggest saving for the 54s. By far the fastest back you can get if I am not mistaken (I sometimes still dream of that one ).

i sold my valeo 22 for $3400usd the other day. its a really good back, its the tethering that gets to you. if you shoot studio all the time, i think a valeo would be perfect- fast shooting, quick- stable previews with lc11.2.

i have an aptus 22 now, and its almost identical in shoot speed and file. but now i can take it out without a laptop.

paul

[woof75]

I think I'm going to have to buy a spare P21 as a backup at these prices. The P21 is a really great back, especially for editorial. I've had one for about 3 years now and it still makes me smile.

[Doug Peterson]

Software for all the DBs is free, and available for download at the manufacturer's site by simply registering the back in your name. Does C1Pro add any functionality when used only with PhaseOne backs? If you don't need it for any other cameras, what's the reason to buy it??

Kumar

Kumar, C1 DB comes free and is easily/readily available to the public. There is no difference between C1 Pro and C1 DB when using a digital back. However, Capture One DB will not work with Canon/Nikon/Leica files.

Since many (most?) Phase owners have both a Phase One back and a Canon/Nikon/Leica. Having C1 Pro means you can use the same program to process all of your images (and tether to your Canons) and keep a more coherent workflow.

If you have zero interest in Nikon/Canon/Leica then C1 DB = C1 Pro.

Doug Peterson,  Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer  |  Personal Portfolio