matte vs glossy

[Fabrice]

I would like to have this image printed and framed:



I am thinking of printing on Ilford Gold Fiber Silk with an Epson 3800 or 4880.  When viewed behind glass, would this image look better printed with matte black inks on a matte paper?  I am drawn to the Baryta papers for their dmax and saturation but have not seen these types of prints framed and am wondering if the glossy finish will create unwanted reflections behind glass.

[mahleu]

Glossy tends to stick to the glass over time creating some nasty effects. Matt is generally the way to go.

[Geoff Wittig]

I would like to have this image printed and framed:

I am thinking of printing on Ilford Gold Fiber Silk with an Epson 3800 or 4880.  When viewed behind glass, would this image look better printed with matte black inks on a matte paper?  I am drawn to the Baryta papers for their dmax and saturation but have not seen these types of prints framed and am wondering if the glossy finish will create unwanted reflections behind glass.

Luster/semigloss/baryta papers using photo black ink will yield prints with color gamut, dynamic range and black depth substantially exceeding what you can acheive using matte black ink on cotton rag paper. Cotton rag paper and matte black ink have two advantages. The first is hand feel, which only matters for loose or matted prints you handle outside of a frame. The second is reflectivity; matte prints look good in almost any lighting, while glossier prints may yield unpleasant reflections together with bronzing and gloss differential. But if your print is matted and framed, you can light it from above so as to avoid any upleasant reflections. Your very nice image seems to include a lot of saturated warm/orange tones, so you may like semigloss/luster better.

All that being said, once a print is framed behind glass, the differences between matte and gloss papers are considerably reduced. At least to my eye the matte papers look a little better and glossy a little worse. If you make two copies of the same image, one on cotton rag and one on Baryta/luster paper and put them side by side, the quality difference will be very obvious. Put both behind glass, and much (but not all) of the difference disappears. Try both and see what you like best.

[jasonrandolph]

Another thing to consider is the amount of deep shadows in your image.  Dmax is substantially greater in baryta type papers, but if you don't have a lot of black in the image, the look of the image behind glass, other than glare, should be quite similar.  I have one image that looks almost identical on both Epson Exhibition Fiber and on Hahnemuhle Photo Rag 308gsm.  But the gentleman in your image has dark clothing, so baryta might be a safer bet for that particular image.

Like Geoff said, tactile quality is significantly more pleasing with rag papers, but this quality is lost when placed behind glass.  I'd say experiment and go with whatever is more pleasing to your tastes.  But as long as you follow the proper workflow, I think you will be pleased either way.  I love the output my 3800 produces.

[sesshin]

Glossy tends to stick to the glass over time creating some nasty effects. Matt is generally the way to go.

There are always frame spacers. On glossy papers they can keep the prints from sticking to the glass and on cotton matte papers they give the paper room to breath and expand/contract over time. Highly recommended.

I've heard some people say that using spacers with a glossy print can cause a nasty sheen since it sits away from the glass a bit.. In that case I would recommend using museum glass or acrylic if at all possible. In fact if you use museum glazing the whole question of which paper looks better under glass is nil.

[sesshin]

I've personally never had that problem either, I've just heard that complaint before. Maybe its how people light their prints? Who's to tell. I just never hesitate to recommend museum glass or acrylic when people are worried about how their images will look under glass. It's expensive but it at least takes that factor out of the equation.

[bill t.]

Best practice is that you should never frame a print pressed up against the glass.

In addition to glossy papers sort of adhering themselves to the glass after a while,  unless your print is absolutely dry at the time of framing it will sort of crinkle and ripple as it shrinks while drying.   If you simply must frame against the glass you need to allow at least a week's drying time, or at least give the print a few drying presses in a dry mount press.

Having said that, I have some matte prints (Epson Enhanced Matte) that have been pressed against the glass for several years, they are all doing just fine and are very flat.  I believe the reason is that the paper base can stretch and contract enough to stay flat.  But RC papers are relatively rigid and can only ripple to relieve temperature and humidity stresses.

Yes the differences between matte and gloss are much less noticeable when framed behind glass.  Esthetically, even in spite of a reduced dynamic range I have to admit I like the rather traditional tonality of matte behind glass.  If you are trying to appeal to a public who "appreciates art" you may be better off with the matte look (and a rather painterly tonal rendition).

[Robcat]

I would like to have this image printed and framed:



I am thinking of printing on Ilford Gold Fiber Silk with an Epson 3800 or 4880.  When viewed behind glass, would this image look better printed with matte black inks on a matte paper?  I am drawn to the Baryta papers for their dmax and saturation but have not seen these types of prints framed and am wondering if the glossy finish will create unwanted reflections behind glass.

Couple things,
While there is some relectivity off the glossy prints, your glass also gives reflections (with both matte and glossy) and since you presumably will light/hang it so that you're not getting reflections off the glass from the desired viewpoint, you wont see any off the print either.

Also, as was said by several people, under glass it's hard to tell the matte paper. I cut two 7 x 10 openings in a 16 x 20 mat board and printed the same photo on matte and glossy (Harman FB AL). Putting one under each opening (on a back board) with a piece of glass on top, you could move it around into different light angles and see just how similar they look.
Rob P

[PeterAit]

I would like to have this image printed and framed:



I am thinking of printing on Ilford Gold Fiber Silk with an Epson 3800 or 4880.  When viewed behind glass, would this image look better printed with matte black inks on a matte paper?  I am drawn to the Baryta papers for their dmax and saturation but have not seen these types of prints framed and am wondering if the glossy finish will create unwanted reflections behind glass.

I have taken to displaying photos in frames without glass. It has many advantages - no reflections, no dust, no breakage, lighter weight, lower cost, and the photo looks its best. Let's face it, the glass does nothing but protect the print, and even a large print on expensive paper costs relatively little in time and materials to replace. Prints that cannot be easily replaced are another matter, of course.

Peter

[Fabrice]

Many thanks for the thoughtful advice.  

If I wasn't outsourcing the printing and framing to a local shop I would certainly make two prints and see whether glossy or matte looked best behind glass.  I don't own the 3800 - I have the Epson 2200 and used to make matte prints on Moab Entrada with a custome profile through ImagePrint, but I didn't like the 2200's output with highly saturated images.  The combination of deep blacks and high saturation in this photo made me think the Baryta papers and Epson 3800 or 4880 would be best.  

It turns out that the place where I'm going to have the print made only offers the choice between "Hahnemuhle Photo Rag, Moab Photo Rag, Textured Paper by Crane, and Exhibition Fine Art Fiber" so I will probably go with the Epson Exhibition Fine Art Fiber.  I would have preferred the Ilford Gold Fiber Silk for its reputed warmth, but I understand the Epson is very good in terms of dmax and saturation, even if the paper is somewhat cooler.  The only trouble I foresee is finding a matt that is a good match for the colour of the Epson Exhibition Fiber; I plan on matting the print with a bit of a gap to show the paper-white around the photo.  (Any recommendations on matte colours that look nice with EEFAF would be very much appreciated).

As I will be matting the print, it probably won't ever touch the glass.  I was worried reflections off the surface of the print might be exaggerated by the effect of having a reflective piece of glass a few inches in front, but it sounds like this will not be an issue if the photo is properly lit.

Regarding reflections and museum glass, is museum glass the same as anti-reflective glass?  I once had a few art pieces framed under the anti-reflective glass, and I must say I don't particularly like the hazy look this type of glass produces, especially in situations where there is considerable distance between the image and the glass.

Perhaps I will follow the suggestion to print the image on Epson Exhibition Fiber and then frame it without glass.

Thanks again,
Fabrice

[sesshin]

Regarding reflections and museum glass, is museum glass the same as anti-reflective glass?  I once had a few art pieces framed under the anti-reflective glass, and I must say I don't particularly like the hazy look this type of glass produces, especially in situations where there is considerable distance between the image and the glass.

Perhaps I will follow the suggestion to print the image on Epson Exhibition Fiber and then frame it without glass.

Thanks again,
Fabrice

I think that might be non-glare glass. Non-glare has a rough, etched side which gives it a slightly milky appearance. This is different than the anti-reflective glass which is perfectly smooth and clear and gives a reflection-free print. Museum glass is both anti-reflective and UV coated

http://www.tru-vue.com/Tru-Vue/Products/mu...anti-reflective

EEF is a great paper. You won't be disappointed. Its not cheap by any means though so be careful if you are going to have it exposed like that.  You might want to consider using some form of protective coating, like lamination or a spray/roll varnish.

[bill t.]

The non-hazy anti reflective glasses and acrylics have extremely delicate coatings, and are very expensive.  The framers I know well like to gripe to me about how hard they are to handle.

I have used Optium acrylic a few times, it is essentially invisible to all but specular reflections.  But I made sure the buyers understood that cleaning had to be done with the greatest care.  None of the anti-reflective glasses would survive a meeting with a 4 year old or a gritty rag.  Last time I bought Optium it was somewhere around $40 per square foot, can't remember the exact price, I must be in denial.

If you decide to buy any anti-reflective glazing be sure to buy it cut to size.  Cutting these delicate materials takes some experience.  Wear cotton gloves when handling, you want to avoid the need to clean off your fingerprints.

Of course the other way to solve the reflection issue is to use coatings.  At least for my clientele I can sell coated canvas far more readily than prints behind glass.