MTF graphs for the first 4 Leica S2 lenses !!!!

[EricWHiss]

I guess I better stop shooting runway at ISO 800 with a 300mm Af Mamiya lens wide open with a Phase Body and a Phase P25 Plus back because certainly it can't be done. BTW there moving too. Oh and single point focus. Now either i am a superman or i am just freaking lucky as hell.

Yeah but you know which way they are going to walk, the path they will take and they walk at a regular pace then stop and turn. They have lights on them.   You get plenty of chances to nail focus for each model a couple of times.    Its not that hard.  Try something like sports with your setup.   I don't think the Leica S2 is going to be any better with its single focus point, but one can hope.  

[David Klepacki]

The Leica lenses for the S2 appear to be better than any 35mm format lens currently available, despite their larger image circle. What dismays me is that it appears to cost so much to produce such fine lenses. A camera that would really benefit enormously from such fine lenses is the humble Canon 50D.

If Leica were to design EF-S lenses for the 50D, it should be possible for them to exceed the quality of the S2 lenses, because of the smaller image circle required. We would then have a situation, camera body $1,000, standard lens $20,000.

I think everyone is assuming that these S2 MTF charts as originally posted are from the lens only.  It could be that these MTF measurements include post-capture processing either by the camera electronics and/or software.  This would also allow being able to offer such lens performance at a reasonable price.  Hasselblad were the first to publish their MTF lens performance in such a way in one of their Victor magazines, where they showed how they could improve the effective MTF of their H lenses via post capture processing with the H3D.  

For economic reasons, I think we will see more emphasis on improving images via electronics, and minimizing the much higher cost of improving the optics only.

[Ray]

I think everyone is assuming that these S2 MTF charts as originally posted are from the lens only.  It could be that these MTF measurements include post-capture processing either by the camera electronics and/or software.

If that's what Leica are doing, they are being very misleading. There's no hint in the description accompanying the MTF charts that they are referring to anything other than the performance of the lens.

http://www.s.leica-camera.com/summarit-s-1...-35-mm-asph-cs/

[EricWHiss]

I think everyone is assuming that these S2 MTF charts as originally posted are from the lens only.  It could be that these MTF measurements include post-capture processing either by the camera electronics and/or software.  This would also allow being able to offer such lens performance at a reasonable price.  Hasselblad were the first to publish their MTF lens performance in such a way in one of their Victor magazines, where they showed how they could improve the effective MTF of their H lenses via post capture processing with the H3D.  

For economic reasons, I think we will see more emphasis on improving images via electronics, and minimizing the much higher cost of improving the optics only.

That a very interesting idea, but how can sharpness be corrected in post?  I'm sure Leica will be doing CA, distortion, and vignetting corrections since they were doing some of that already with the M8 and DMR but I think sharpness (contrast) can't be fixed with DAC?  (Or if so how is it done?)  And that's mostly what you see in the MTF.   But you raise a a good point - we haven't seen the curves for distortion.  Distortion is one of the trade offs in lens design.  Maybe they were able to design the new lenses with DAC corrections in mind and concentrate on just sharpness?    That would be a good explanation on how they were able to achieve those MTFs!

[bradleygibson]

While we're on the topic, there are many ways to 'cheat'.

Now, I'm not assuming that Leica is doing this--I, for one am assuming that this is raw lens performance, but until Leica publishes further information there will be no way to know.

But one can improve MTF with post processing, as David pointed out.

Eric, it depends on exactly what you mean by "sharpness" but there are algorithms which (with some 'hints') can restore a limited amount of resolution.  You can Google deblurring algorithms to get some idea of what they can do, and their limitations.

MTF's can also be 'improved' by showing the MTF of the design (the design's theoretical best performance assuming perfect materials and construction), rather than of an actual, physical lens, with all its real-world flaws.  (Zeiss is known for measuring the MTF of real-world lenses).

And other techniques involve using monochromatic light (light of only one frequency) to eliminate the all frequency-based abberations from the MTF chart.  (Schneider is known for publishing the spectral distribution of the light source (ideally approximately flat from 400-700nm)).

And I'm sure there are other ways too.  So, until Leica publishes the full information on their lenses, it's really anyone's guess.  But given their reputation, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt for the time being.

-Brad

That a very interesting idea, but how can sharpness be corrected in post?  I'm sure Leica will be doing CA, distortion, and vignetting corrections since they were doing some of that already with the M8 and DMR but I think sharpness (contrast) can't be fixed with DAC?  (Or if so how is it done?)  And that's mostly what you see in the MTF.   But you raise a a good point - we haven't seen the curves for distortion.  Distortion is one of the trade offs in lens design.  Maybe they were able to design the new lenses with DAC corrections in mind and concentrate on just sharpness?    That would be a good explanation on how they were able to achieve those MTFs!

[Carsten W]

That a very interesting idea, but how can sharpness be corrected in post?  I'm sure Leica will be doing CA, distortion, and vignetting corrections since they were doing some of that already with the M8 and DMR but I think sharpness (contrast) can't be fixed with DAC?  (Or if so how is it done?)  And that's mostly what you see in the MTF.   But you raise a a good point - we haven't seen the curves for distortion.  Distortion is one of the trade offs in lens design.  Maybe they were able to design the new lenses with DAC corrections in mind and concentrate on just sharpness?    That would be a good explanation on how they were able to achieve those MTFs!

Leica correctness vignetting on the DMR, and vignetting and cyan cast on the M8. No pixels are pushed around, and I think it is safe to say from the wording of their press release that they are not planning on starting now. They are a very traditional optics company, and very proud of their performance and technology. I think they will publish and attain raw lens performance, not software-assisted performance. They have almost certainly achieved the published MTF graphics by the extensive use of their glass catalogue (Leica used to have a glass laboratory, and I believe they plan to re-open it), as well as the judicious use of their aspherical lens elements, an area in which they are significantly ahead of any other camera manufacturer, at least at the moment. I don't expect that Leica needs to compromise on distortion to achieve their performance... unless... the only way I can imagine Leica taking this route is not to achieve the performance, but to achieve it at a price. If they are secretly planning on coming in significantly cheaper on a per-lens basis than they historically could, then that might be a reason.

[rainer_v]

i dont believe in the S2 till it hits the shops.
i dont see a market  for the S2 which could be big enough for bringing any profit for leica,
i dont see that the S2 will be able to leave a ß level,-
i simply have not enough imagination ....
 

[eronald]

i dont believe in the S2 till it hits the shops.
i dont see a market  for the S2 which could be big enough for bringing any profit for leica,
i dont see that the S2 will be able to leave a ß level,-
i simply have not enough imagination ....
 

The part I don't understand is why they don't simply validate the hardware, and push the thing out the door with a promise of firmware updates, a couple of lenses, and a low-low first adopter price. At the speed at which they're going, the sensor will be obsolete by the time this product hits the street - with the inevitable software delays. And the software will be beta anyway, if history is any guide.

Edmund

[Nemo]

I think everyone is assuming that these S2 MTF charts as originally posted are from the lens only.  It could be that these MTF measurements include post-capture processing either by the camera electronics and/or software. (...)
For economic reasons, I think we will see more emphasis on improving images via electronics, and minimizing the much higher cost of improving the optics only.

I think those are MTF calculated graphs for lens performance only. The firmware of the camera is far from finished yet.

Software cannot correct all aberrations. Vignetting (with a negative effect in local noise) and distortion, or fringe (due to chromatic aberrations and other problems due to the sensor's filters), can be easily corrected by software. Hasselblad or Leica do this. The Hasselblads H correct for chromatic aberrations, Leica M8 corrects for vignetting, Panasonic LX3/Leica D-Lux4 corrects for distortion...

However, aberrations have additional effects on effective resolution and contrast, on the quality of the rendering of the "out of focus" areas, etc... and this cannot be corrected by software.

Software processing, and RAW developers in particular, have a powerful impact on image quality, but the quality of the "input" itself (the image transmitted by the lens), is the key starting point in the image chain:

http://www.imx.nl/photo/technique/technique/page42.html

R.

[Guy Mancuso]

Yeah but you know which way they are going to walk, the path they will take and they walk at a regular pace then stop and turn. They have lights on them.   You get plenty of chances to nail focus for each model a couple of times.    Its not that hard.  Try something like sports with your setup.   I don't think the Leica S2 is going to be any better with its single focus point, but one can hope.

Yes and no the issue is AF still has to keep up with the movement. But yes real sports i would grab a DSLR. But you still need a pretty fast AF system because most shots there coming straight at you and not side to side where panning is much easier on AF. There not walking slow either , so it is a challenge on the system but i agree if shooting football it would be much harder on the MF systems. The AF on the Phase body is pretty quick though and I am sure in the future that will even get better. But 1.5 seconds between frames does not leave you that much in the way of chances. Faster speed backs like the P21 Plus would be a much better back for this stuff or any back that can go .8 . This is where i see the S2 will have a advantage over the conventional system today. I do not think we have anything faster than .8 in any of the systems. 1.5 frames per second not doing the math here seems twice as fast. That is huge for wedding and fashion shooters.

[Nemo]

That would be a good explanation on how they were able to achieve those MTFs!

Those MTF are achieved by means of excellent lens design and manufacture.

Leica claimed, at the last Photokina, the performance of the S lenses will be outstanding, without the help of software correction... and this was an obvious punch to Hasselblad...

You can desing lenses with a different philosophy: allowing vignetting and distortion to mask other aberrations... and the correct for vignetting and distortion by means of software... but Leica (like Olympus) prefer an "optics-based" design philosophy... The quality of the first step (the image formed by the lens on the image forming plane) must have the best possible quality...

[Carsten W]

i dont believe in the S2 till it hits the shops.
i dont see a market  for the S2 which could be big enough for bringing any profit for leica,
i dont see that the S2 will be able to leave a ß level,-
i simply have not enough imagination ....
 

I am a bit sceptical myself, to be honest. I think that the basic idea is good, but execution will determine the success.

[Guy Mancuso]

I think those are MTF calculated graphs for lens performance only. The firmware of the camera is far from finished yet.

Software cannot correct all aberrations. Vignetting (with a negative effect in local noise) and distortion, or fringe (due to chromatic aberrations and other problems due to the sensor's filters), can be easily corrected by software. Hasselblad or Leica do this. The Hasselblads H correct for chromatic aberrations, Leica M8 corrects for vignetting, Panasonic LX3/Leica D-Lux4 corrects for distortion...

However, aberrations have additional effects on effective resolution and contrast, on the quality of the rendering of the "out of focus" areas, etc... and this cannot be corrected by software.

Software processing, and RAW developers in particular, have a powerful impact on image quality, but the quality of the "input" itself (the image transmitted by the lens), is the key starting point in the image chain:

http://www.imx.nl/photo/technique/technique/page42.html

R.

Agree the software is far from finished which will be for Leica was to go with C1, so they are on the lens only but what i want to know which is not posted is distortion. Let's face it every wide angle on the planet has it with retrofocus design. If there saying no software corrections than how are they going to fix that unless it is a processed raw out of the camera or later in C1. My bet like the M8 is a lot of stuff will be processed in the raw in the camera and that will slow things down, so the in camera processor for 1.5 FPS must be fast as hell. We need to see how this all plays out in real world but I agree CA, Vignetting and all that according to leica's marketing saying in effect there is no corrections needed than it all has to be done in the Raw itself before it even hits C1. Now with my Mamiya glass in C1 all those kinds of corrections are available to me but it is after the fact of shooting the Raw and in the software itself.

[Nemo]

They have almost certainly achieved the published MTF graphics by the extensive use of their glass catalogue (Leica used to have a glass laboratory, and I believe they plan to re-open it), as well as the judicious use of their aspherical lens elements, an area in which they are significantly ahead of any other camera manufacturer, at least at the moment.

The problem with aspherics is the diameter of the lens. I don't know how, but Leica has found a way for making ASPH lens elements with larger diameters...

[csp]

the biggest mistake leica made is the design of the s2 it looks too much like a cheap japanese dslr everyone can afford. the only solution to keep potential customers is to  announce a titanium version with improved logo and gold plated lenses as soon as possible.

[eronald]

the biggest mistake leica made is the design of the s2 it looks too much like a cheap japanese dslr everyone can afford. the only solution to keep potential customers is to  announce a titanium version with improved logo and gold plated lenses as soon as possible.

The biggest mistake Leica is making is continuing with these boutique camera designs. There's more money in the third-party optics business, as anyone can easily become your client without buying into your own system. And as Angenieux demonstrated, making one good zoom lens is enough to keep you in business. Of course a little military sideline helps

Edmund

[csp]

The biggest mistake Leica is making is continuing with these boutique camera designs. There's more money in the third-party optics business, as anyone can easily become your client without buying into your own system. And as Angenieux demonstrated, making one good zoom lens is enough to keep you in business. Of course a little military sideline helps

Edmund

i was just kidding, leica made every possible mistake in the digital age but the s2 will be their last one.   the first thing the new management did was cancel all relations to long time leica dealers or forced them to buy an initial high amount of cameras  to stay premium leica dealer this was rather smart for a company fighting to survive.  so it did not come as a surprise that their turnover dropped by 45% this year.

[Dustbak]

I think those are MTF calculated graphs for lens performance only. The firmware of the camera is far from finished yet.

Software cannot correct all aberrations. Vignetting (with a negative effect in local noise) and distortion, or fringe (due to chromatic aberrations and other problems due to the sensor's filters), can be easily corrected by software. Hasselblad or Leica do this. The Hasselblads H correct for chromatic aberrations, Leica M8 corrects for vignetting, Panasonic LX3/Leica D-Lux4 corrects for distortion...

However, aberrations have additional effects on effective resolution and contrast, on the quality of the rendering of the "out of focus" areas, etc... and this cannot be corrected by software.

Software processing, and RAW developers in particular, have a powerful impact on image quality, but the quality of the "input" itself (the image transmitted by the lens), is the key starting point in the image chain:

http://www.imx.nl/photo/technique/technique/page42.html

R.

Hasselblad corrects on: CA, Vignetting & distortion.

BTW, I think Leica will carve out a nice little niche for themselves but I doubt it will be the professional users. It will be the 'dentist' dream machine and those people buy their toys no matter how the state of the economy is.

[markowich]

have to agree I shot the DMR for two years and without a doubt the best in 35mm at the time and frankly It still maybe when it comes to image quality, more to life than MPX. The only thing I see close to it in look and feel is the new Sony A900. Very tempting 35mm system right now. I am certainly keeping a close eye on the S2 it represents speed above all else in MF

guy,
try the D3x. you will happily forget about the sony and the leica DMR. the latter seems just a romantic notion....i had fun with the M8 myself but
when it comes down to hard IQ and handling facts it just turned out to be a nuisance. i was al poised to buy the S2 but i decided on the H3DII 50
after all. upgradable and reliable. and the D3x really shines. it beats the A900 and the 5Dmark II IQ wise easily.
give it a try, might save you money after all, peter

[Guy Mancuso]

guy,
try the D3x. you will happily forget about the sony and the leica DMR. the latter seems just a romantic notion....i had fun with the M8 myself but
when it comes down to hard IQ and handling facts it just turned out to be a nuisance. i was al poised to buy the S2 but i decided on the H3DII 50
after all. upgradable and reliable. and the D3x really shines. it beats the A900 and the 5Dmark II IQ wise easily.
give it a try, might save you money after all, peter

Thanks Peter i have yet to take a look at this yet. With some Zeiss glass i bet you get a nice look too.