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Author Topic: MTF graphs for the first 4 Leica S2 lenses !!!!  (Read 32833 times)

EricWHiss

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MTF graphs for the first 4 Leica S2 lenses !!!!
« Reply #40 on: December 29, 2008, 01:56:27 pm »

Quote from: bcooter
If what your shooting has a heartbeat or moves faster than a tax refund check then you'll find that a 12mpx image in focus without blur has 10 times more real detail than a soft 31, 33 and 39mpx image.



     So true!   And I am enjoying the humor you add.

When I got my Rollei, I spent several days practicing focus chasing my kids around the house, even trying to shoot soap bubbles blown into the studio.  It's just hard work to try and match the AF on a DSLR.   With high quality lenses, which I expect the Leica S to be, the apex of focus is readily apparent even when you stop down for DOF.  My experience is that this phenomenon is more noticeable with digital backs than film.  That's why accurate focus is starting to be a big deal.  And this in my opinion is the area where all the MF camera manufacturers have let us down.  I can't believe its that hard to introduce selectable multipoint AF as the technology has been around for years.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2008, 02:03:07 pm by EricWHiss »
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Nemo

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« Reply #41 on: December 29, 2008, 02:01:46 pm »

Quote from: bcooter
Everytime someone tosses out one of these comparisons the subject isn't moving.


Everytime someone asks why MF instead of Canon or Nikon the subject isn't moving.
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Nemo

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« Reply #42 on: December 29, 2008, 02:03:06 pm »

Quote from: csp
not only that,  if you shot large projects you have to manage tera bytes of data.  wonder how many of them who are so keen on more resolution have experienced this ?


You can save "small RAW" files when the resolution needed is lower than the maximum, isn't?
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Nemo

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« Reply #43 on: December 29, 2008, 02:12:36 pm »

Quote from: jing q
why would the professionals using hassy or mamiya spend another $30k to get a new camera?

In the film era you can get a Hasselblad V for the price of the best Nikon F camera. Hasselblad and other MF manufacturers' prices were too high for many professionals. The typical equipment based on Nikon 35mm cameras and a MF camera was replaced by Canon 35mm digital cameras in the 90s. The point of MF isn't resolution, but the different look of images from larger formats (more subtle transitions, in sharpness and tonality). The S system is interesting if the price is competitive and if the quality is unique. It can gain many professionals for the MF territory. Hasselblad and Mamiya try to do the same, reducing prices, but it is difficult for 645 systems.
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ErikKaffehr

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« Reply #44 on: December 29, 2008, 03:01:35 pm »

Hi,

For professionals it's mostly a question of cost and benefit. If a new camera offers better options for increasing income or better options improving workflow (that is reducing costs) it may be attractive.

Best regards
Erik

Quote from: Nemo
In the film era you can get a Hasselblad V for the price of the best Nikon F camera. Hasselblad and other MF manufacturers' prices were too high for many professionals. The typical equipment based on Nikon 35mm cameras and a MF camera was replaced by Canon 35mm digital cameras in the 90s. The point of MF isn't resolution, but the different look of images from larger formats (more subtle transitions, in sharpness and tonality). The S system is interesting if the price is competitive and if the quality is unique. It can gain many professionals for the MF territory. Hasselblad and Mamiya try to do the same, reducing prices, but it is difficult for 645 systems.
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csp

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« Reply #45 on: December 29, 2008, 03:08:45 pm »

Quote from: Nemo
Everytime someone asks why MF instead of Canon or Nikon the subject isn't moving.


yes, but than why not use a canon, sony ....?   oh , i know  the look, i do and did shoot form 8x10 to 35 but i find this exaggerated differences betwee 645 and 35 ridicules.
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Carsten W

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« Reply #46 on: December 29, 2008, 03:31:08 pm »

Quote from: jing q
which professionals are we talking about?

The professionals shooting catalogue, fashion, lifestyle, commercial and require less megapixels (out of which it's hard to justify an extremely expensive investment in a whole new system)

This is apparently where Leica is aiming; fashion and commercial photography, at least initially, with a generally competent, well-rounded system somewhere down the line (with a 350mm lens, a 30mm T/S lens, and so on).

Quote from: bcooter
I wish Leica well, hope the camera comes out working on all fronts with all the lenses on the shelf, (and under a billion dollars) though if Leica doesn't put a cmos sensor in that thing and offer actual high iso, they can pretty much wrap up the whole thought of selling these things in bulk because nobody needs another slow iso camera that shoots one frame every year and a half.

[...]

The thing is you kind of have this feeling that by the time the RED or the Leica are full featured ready to buy, Canon or Nikon (or both) will have stitched two 24x36 sensors together and sell a $10,000 camera that has 50 mpx, shoots video and makes coffee and toast between setups.

Leica appears to be aiming at 37MP, 1.5-2 fps, top-notch responsiveness, and awesome lenses with very good AF and superior sharpness. Their statements and first testers and the camera in general appears to be aimed at a fast-shooting 1Ds3/D3/D3x FF-35mm user, who is frustrated with the IQ and perhaps the lenses, and is looking for a step up, IQ-wise, with minimal compromises (mainly in speed and ubiquity), or the 31MP MF user, who wants more speed and a more dynamic form factor, and perhaps better lenses. I am guessing that the S2 will launch with a 1-stop advantage in the high ISO department over the 31MP MF sensors, based mainly on the amount of time which has passed since the last sensor generation, so perhaps a top-notch ISO 200, ISO 800 with really good quality, and a good ISO 1600, not much more. Their support of both focal plane and leaf shutters in modern lenses will give them a unique advantage.

I am fairly confident that they can hit this goal. The lenses will be very good, perhaps the best; the camera will compete with their targets, +/- a couple of firmware updates, the ISO performance will meet reasonable expectations, and the general IQ will be very high. And they are serious about trying: Leica is currently building new facilities to house 3 times as many people, as far as I have read, in their general move back to Wetzlar.

Whether anyone wants to pay 15000 Euro for the camera and 4000-7000 Euro per lens to get there (it is possible that by using common components and other "tricks" that the lens prices will be a bit lower), is another matter. Whether Leica is able to get Phase One's help translated to getting into rental houses, and their pro support channel into shape, is another open question. What everyone else does while Leica gets their ship into shape is yet another. If the lenses are released fast enough to avoid their customers losing hope is still another.

I think the MF landscape would look a lot better if Leica had at least enough success to keep going with it. They would provide a very good transition from the speed and convenience of FF-35mm to the IQ of large MF backs. If they have a run-away success, they could actually change things, but this seems less likely, at least in the current economy.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2008, 03:34:57 pm by carstenw »
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csp

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« Reply #47 on: December 29, 2008, 03:56:09 pm »

Quote from: carstenw
Leica appears to be aiming at 37MP, 1.5-2 fps, top-notch responsiveness, and awesome lenses with very good AF and superior sharpness. Their statements and first testers and the camera in general appears to be aimed at a fast-shooting 1Ds3/D3/D3x FF-35mm user, who is frustrated with the IQ and perhaps the lenses, and is looking for a step up, IQ-wise, with minimal compromises (mainly in speed and ubiquity), or the 31MP MF user, who wants more speed and a more dynamic form factor, and perhaps better lenses. I am guessing that the S2 will launch with a 1-stop advantage in the high ISO department over the 31MP MF sensors, based mainly on the amount of time which has passed since the last sensor generation, so perhaps a top-notch ISO 200, ISO 800 with really good quality, and a good ISO 1600, not much more. Their support of both focal plane and leaf shutters in modern lenses will give them a unique advantage.

I am fairly confident that they can hit this goal. The lenses will be very good, perhaps the best; the camera will compete with their targets, +/- a couple of firmware updates, the ISO performance will meet reasonable expectations, and the general IQ will be very high. And they are serious about trying: Leica is currently building new facilities to house 3 times as many people, as far as I have read, in their general move back to Wetzlar.


i can't see the frustrated 35mm crowd and we have to wait  how much better the leica lenses are in real compared to hc lenses  the same with your high  iso performance
prediction.   hasselblad and phase are sure not under a  shock because leica announced the s2 and stopped immediately every form of developmenrt ;-)
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eronald

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« Reply #48 on: December 29, 2008, 04:43:00 pm »

The S2 has single point AF which won't make it popular with people coming from the 35mm world. I doubt the Kodak sensor will be usable above 400 ISO, not because of noise, but because of streaking. In the field, cumbersome focus and low ISO are a definite handicap for hand-held fashion and events eg. marriages. For set-piece shots - ie tripod-mounted fashion, shift lens architecture images, travel and landscape , I'm sure a "Super full-frame" camera with superb lenses will find a niche and an audience. Unless Hasselblad crash their prices again. I'm sure  a "full-frame" Hassy with a 60MP 645 sensor can give even Leica lenses on a smaller format a run for the money.  

Edmund
« Last Edit: December 29, 2008, 04:50:47 pm by eronald »
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Guy Mancuso

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« Reply #49 on: December 29, 2008, 06:03:12 pm »

I guess I better stop shooting runway at ISO 800 with a 300mm Af Mamiya lens wide open with a Phase Body and a Phase P25 Plus back because certainly it can't be done. BTW there moving too. Oh and single point focus. Now either i am a superman or i am just freaking lucky as hell. Come on folks anything can be done the limits are there but certainly not as tight as one makes it sound. Sure MF is slower than the DSLR's but you can get it done. I start another show next week and I will use the same tools as the last time. Now I am busting chops here and i am not superman by any means. But honestly I think we under rate what can be done with these tools. If interested you can check out this older thread but can't is not a word for Pro's to abide by, really I will say it would have been easier on ME to shoot a Nikon or Canon but that comes as another expense that i am trying to avoid. But it really can do almost anything a DSLR can do and if there is really any hurdle it is back speed. The S2 will improve that by 1.5 FPS and in my case it is ONE shot every 1.5 seconds time lapsed. So if there is a hurdle for me this is it. I even shot several of these 1 stop under 800 and pulled it up in C1 with nice results. Is it the best tool for this maybe not but it can get it done and for me i paid my money and i want to use it and get results. I think the S2 is going to be a interesting tool since speed is what gives it the edge over the conventional MF systems. The lenses I am not remotely worried about but service and support and getting rentals should be our biggest concern. I am looking forward to seeing what Leica does and being a friend of leica myself I hope to get more info on this in January to give some updates on there progress.

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.p...=stage+lighting
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eronald

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« Reply #50 on: December 29, 2008, 06:47:49 pm »

Well Guy, it's your living and your earner. I'll certainly enjoy watching you cajole Leica into providing a reliable dSLR for us amateurs and dentists. I'll leave out the lawyers, they're welcome to V1.0


Edmund

Quote from: Guy Mancuso
I guess I better stop shooting runway at ISO 800 with a 300mm Af Mamiya lens wide open with a Phase Body and a Phase P25 Plus back because certainly it can't be done. BTW there moving too. Oh and single point focus. Now either i am a superman or i am just freaking lucky as hell. Come on folks anything can be done the limits are there but certainly not as tight as one makes it sound. Sure MF is slower than the DSLR's but you can get it done. I start another show next week and I will use the same tools as the last time. Now I am busting chops here and i am not superman by any means. But honestly I think we under rate what can be done with these tools. If interested you can check out this older thread but can't is not a word for Pro's to abide by, really I will say it would have been easier on ME to shoot a Nikon or Canon but that comes as another expense that i am trying to avoid. But it really can do almost anything a DSLR can do and if there is really any hurdle it is back speed. The S2 will improve that by 1.5 FPS and in my case it is ONE shot every 1.5 seconds time lapsed. So if there is a hurdle for me this is it. I even shot several of these 1 stop under 800 and pulled it up in C1 with nice results. Is it the best tool for this maybe not but it can get it done and for me i paid my money and i want to use it and get results. I think the S2 is going to be a interesting tool since speed is what gives it the edge over the conventional MF systems. The lenses I am not remotely worried about but service and support and getting rentals should be our biggest concern. I am looking forward to seeing what Leica does and being a friend of leica myself I hope to get more info on this in January to give some updates on there progress.

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.p...=stage+lighting
« Last Edit: December 29, 2008, 06:48:37 pm by eronald »
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Guy Mancuso

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« Reply #51 on: December 29, 2008, 06:52:30 pm »

Quote from: eronald
Well Guy, it's your living and your earner. I'll certainly enjoy watching you cajole Leica into providing a reliable dSLR for us amateurs and dentists. I'll leave out the lawyers, they're welcome to V1.0


Edmund


LOL I was waiting for you to reply. LOL  


Hey it works but admittedly it is hard on me. You really have to be dead on the money pretty much. I just hate the word can't do this or that. Got that damn M8 to do all kinds of fun stuff. LOL
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Carsten W

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« Reply #52 on: December 29, 2008, 06:59:59 pm »

Quote from: csp
i can't see the frustrated 35mm crowd

Then I think you aren't looking at it right. Everyone who uses MF *and* 35mm is a potential customer. If you could replace your 35mm FF cameras *and* your MF stuff with an S2, would you consider it? Clearly not everyone can get away with that, but Leica's bet is that enough can to keep them alive, and even to make them thrive. There are additional potential customers on both sides of that line, but it could work... The weather-sealing could be Leica's ace in the hole for certain customers; unmatched on the MF side.

Quote
we have to wait  how much better the leica lenses are in real compared to hc lenses  the same with your high  iso performance
prediction.

I think that it is not unreasonable to expect each of the Leica lenses to be at least as good as anything else out there. This is already the case with their existing lenses, both SLR and M. Leica has the best technology in the world for making aspherical lens elements, and that by some margin, so if anyone can raise the bar, it is Leica. Anyone who has worked with recent Leica lenses knows this. The prices are another story, and zooms are a wild-card, not Leica's traditional strength, but they may be gaining experience for both auto-focus and zooms via Panasonic. They do need to use that knowledge properly in the MF segment.

The high ISO performance is really not a stretch at all. Existing 33x44mm 31MP sensors in Phase One and Hasselblad backs are already performing for pros at ISO 800 (see Guy's comment about his P25+, and that has a stop less performance at high ISO than the P30+...). For Leica's new 30x45mm Kodak sensor to match that is almost a given, and since a few years have passed, expecting one more stop of performance is really almost pessimistic. Leica will be using microlenses, and apparently the advances there might even give them more. How about a clean ISO 800, good ISO 1600, and ISO 3200 in a pinch? The question is not so much if it will outperform existing 31MP sensor, but more by how much.

Quote
hasselblad and phase are sure not under a  shock because leica announced the s2 and stopped immediately every form of developmenrt ;-)

Surely. They might need to closely look at their marketing strategy in that segment, however, if Leica has any success. At the moment, they are betting that the same platform is good enough for everyone, but with the iffy software, patchy reliability and low performance of many of these systems, this could be a bad strategy. Leica is aimed straight at a weak spot in existing MF manufacturers' lineups, namely the border to FF-35mm, where they are losing ground every year. There are photographers with money there, looking for the right system for them. The S2 is Leica's wedge to drive that crack wide open.

Again, the devil is in the details, and who knows if they will succeed. But I think that the basic strategy is sound, the execution so far looks right on track, the performance should be comfortably attainable, and the success or failure of the whole deal is more likely to lie in reliability, pricing and availability, both to purchase and to rent (as well as the performance of the AF).
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Guy Mancuso

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« Reply #53 on: December 29, 2008, 07:23:32 pm »

Quote from: carstenw
Then I think you aren't looking at it right. Everyone who uses MF *and* 35mm is a potential customer. If you could replace your 35mm FF cameras *and* your MF stuff with an S2, would you consider it? Clearly not everyone can get away with that, but Leica's bet is that enough can to keep them alive, and even to make them thrive. There are additional potential customers on both sides of that line, but it could work... The weather-sealing could be Leica's ace in the hole for certain customers; unmatched on the MF side.



I think that it is not unreasonable to expect each of the Leica lenses to be at least as good as anything else out there. This is already the case with their existing lenses, both SLR and M. Leica has the best technology in the world for making aspherical lens elements, and that by some margin, so if anyone can raise the bar, it is Leica. Anyone who has worked with recent Leica lenses knows this. The prices are another story, and zooms are a wild-card, not Leica's traditional strength, but they may be gaining experience for both auto-focus and zooms via Panasonic. They do need to use that knowledge properly in the MF segment.

The high ISO performance is really not a stretch at all. Existing 33x44mm 31MP sensors in Phase One and Hasselblad backs are already performing for pros at ISO 800 (see Guy's comment about his P25+, and that has a stop less performance at high ISO than the P30+...). For Leica's new 30x45mm Kodak sensor to match that is almost a given, and since a few years have passed, expecting one more stop of performance is really almost pessimistic. Leica will be using microlenses, and apparently the advances there might even give them more. How about a clean ISO 800, good ISO 1600, and ISO 3200 in a pinch? The question is not so much if it will outperform existing 31MP sensor, but more by how much.



Surely. They might need to closely look at their marketing strategy in that segment, however, if Leica has any success. At the moment, they are betting that the same platform is good enough for everyone, but with the iffy software, patchy reliability and low performance of many of these systems, this could be a bad strategy. Leica is aimed straight at a weak spot in existing MF manufacturers' lineups, namely the border to FF-35mm, where they are losing ground every year. There are photographers with money there, looking for the right system for them. The S2 is Leica's wedge to drive that crack wide open.

Again, the devil is in the details, and who knows if they will succeed. But I think that the basic strategy is sound, the execution so far looks right on track, the performance should be comfortably attainable, and the success or failure of the whole deal is more likely to lie in reliability, pricing and availability, both to purchase and to rent (as well as the performance of the AF).


I think worst case is it will match the P30 plus with noise and that is rated at 1600 my only worry is 6 micron versus 6.8 which does not seem like much but may have some bearing but i am no engineer either and that is a guess. Hopefully a very clean 800 as minimum otherwise they maybe should not release it. The main advantage I se in the S2 over the MF standards is speed and on all fronts that should be there priority is to leave the turtle behind and run fast on all fronts. They limited themselves to integrated back so they have to have something let's just say special . If you look at all the posts on MF in all the forums , the biggest complaint really is ISO , Speed of FPS , LCD which they addressed, Raw and Jpeg they addressed and maybe some other minor quirks but they seem the biggies and if they can improve them by a good margin than i think many will be taken a second look at it. Hard facts are for folks that already own a system than we need a real push to make a lateral move. Those thinking about MF and those wanting more out of 35mm maybe there biggest takers but many of us just want to fly too.
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archivue

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« Reply #54 on: December 29, 2008, 07:40:24 pm »

this graphs have to be compare to the rodenstock HR line...
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Ray

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« Reply #55 on: December 29, 2008, 08:09:49 pm »

Owners of 35mm format DSLRs have been complaining for years about the inadequacy of their lenses as the pixel count increases with each camera upgrade. I recall when the 11mp Canon 1Ds was released years ago, many users felt they really needed to upgrade their lenses to get the most out of the camera and that there would be little point in going beyond 11mp with current lenses.

Canon are now up to the equivalent of 39mp full frame, but in the form of the cropped format 50D which, with 15mp, translates to 39mp full frame.

The Leica S2 has about the same pixel density as the Sony A900 and Nikon D3X and I think it would be true to say that most owners of the latest 35mm FF DSLRs, including owners of the 1Ds3 and 5D2, are a bit concerned that their lenses are perhaps not as good as they could be and should be.

The Leica lenses for the S2 appear to be better than any 35mm format lens currently available, despite their larger image circle. What dismays me is that it appears to cost so much to produce such fine lenses. A camera that would really benefit enormously from such fine lenses is the humble Canon 50D.

If Leica were to design EF-S lenses for the 50D, it should be possible for them to exceed the quality of the S2 lenses, because of the smaller image circle required. We would then have a situation, camera body $1,000, standard lens $20,000.

As always, it seems that the 'law of diminishing returns' applies as one tries to get the maximum performance possible from technology. From purely practical and economic concerns, one might wonder if there's any point in doubling or tripling the cost of a system in order to get what might prove to be marginal improvements of pixel-peeping proportions.

However, I hope the S2 is a huge success. It might encourage other manufacturers to jump on the bandwagon and produce similar quality lenses for smaller formats at a more affordable price.
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eronald

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« Reply #56 on: December 29, 2008, 08:26:29 pm »

I think many of us have held the S2. It's an interesting object. In a way, it's the perfect opposite and therefore perfect symbiont of the D700, or maybe even of the 5D2.

S2              D700
15 A             2 A
800 B           12800 B
1 C               5 C


Assigning the appropriate units {A, B, C} }in the above table from {f/s, ISO, K$} is left as an exercise for the reader. Guy is excused from this homework class, he has a scheduled appointment with his banker who is very supportive of Guy's actions to save Germany's economy

Edmund
« Last Edit: December 29, 2008, 08:31:33 pm by eronald »
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Guy Mancuso

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« Reply #57 on: December 29, 2008, 08:42:29 pm »

LOL first I need to save my own house. LOL
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jing q

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« Reply #58 on: December 29, 2008, 09:42:41 pm »

Quote from: carstenw
This is apparently where Leica is aiming; fashion and commercial photography, at least initially, with a generally competent, well-rounded system somewhere down the line (with a 350mm lens, a 30mm T/S lens, and so on).



Leica appears to be aiming at 37MP, 1.5-2 fps, top-notch responsiveness, and awesome lenses with very good AF and superior sharpness. Their statements and first testers and the camera in general appears to be aimed at a fast-shooting 1Ds3/D3/D3x FF-35mm user, who is frustrated with the IQ and perhaps the lenses, and is looking for a step up, IQ-wise, with minimal compromises (mainly in speed and ubiquity), or the 31MP MF user, who wants more speed and a more dynamic form factor, and perhaps better lenses. I am guessing that the S2 will launch with a 1-stop advantage in the high ISO department over the 31MP MF sensors, based mainly on the amount of time which has passed since the last sensor generation, so perhaps a top-notch ISO 200, ISO 800 with really good quality, and a good ISO 1600, not much more. Their support of both focal plane and leaf shutters in modern lenses will give them a unique advantage.

I am fairly confident that they can hit this goal. The lenses will be very good, perhaps the best; the camera will compete with their targets, +/- a couple of firmware updates, the ISO performance will meet reasonable expectations, and the general IQ will be very high. And they are serious about trying: Leica is currently building new facilities to house 3 times as many people, as far as I have read, in their general move back to Wetzlar.

Whether anyone wants to pay 15000 Euro for the camera and 4000-7000 Euro per lens to get there (it is possible that by using common components and other "tricks" that the lens prices will be a bit lower), is another matter. Whether Leica is able to get Phase One's help translated to getting into rental houses, and their pro support channel into shape, is another open question. What everyone else does while Leica gets their ship into shape is yet another. If the lenses are released fast enough to avoid their customers losing hope is still another.

I think the MF landscape would look a lot better if Leica had at least enough success to keep going with it. They would provide a very good transition from the speed and convenience of FF-35mm to the IQ of large MF backs. If they have a run-away success, they could actually change things, but this seems less likely, at least in the current economy.

I wish them lots of luck.considering how I have yet to see a decent 400ISO from a MFDB maker.
The prices that have been floating around seem to point at $30k for a body only
I can get 3 P30+ backs for that price at least. And do they have any upgrade programs for that kind of price point? The value of a body with a fixed sensor drops fast...
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eronald

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« Reply #59 on: December 29, 2008, 10:26:27 pm »

Quote from: jing q
I wish them lots of luck.considering how I have yet to see a decent 400ISO from a MFDB maker.
The prices that have been floating around seem to point at $30k for a body only
I can get 3 P30+ backs for that price at least. And do they have any upgrade programs for that kind of price point? The value of a body with a fixed sensor drops fast...

At Photokina they were talking of matching Hassy price per megapixel, which translated to around Euro 15K at tht point, but they agreed the Hassy price would fall.

The part I don't like is that the sensor is already determined to be the Kodak, which at release time will be a full year old, ie a year out of date. I think this sensor will let them down.

Edmund

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