Phase One P and P+

[Alex MacPherson]

I am researching Phase One backs.

I am looking at a Phase One P30 and a P21+ . Both of these backs are selling for roughly
the same amount of money. Besides the difference in resolution, what is the difference?
The capture time seems to be roughly the same. Is there a reason why the P21+ would
sell for the same price as higher resolution back?

Which would be a better buy?

[etrump]

I am researching Phase One backs.

I am looking at a Phase One P30 and a P21+ . Both of these backs are selling for roughly
the same amount of money. Besides the difference in resolution, what is the difference?
The capture time seems to be roughly the same. Is there a reason why the P21+ would
sell for the same price as higher resolution back?

Which would be a better buy?

If it was me I would go for the P30.  The + screens are better but you should be using the histogram for exposure anyway.  

I used a P30 before I got my P30+ and IQ was very similar except at higher ISO.

[bcooter]

I am researching Phase One backs.

I am looking at a Phase One P30 and a P21+ . Both of these backs are selling for roughly
the same amount of money. Besides the difference in resolution, what is the difference?
The capture time seems to be roughly the same. Is there a reason why the P21+ would
sell for the same price as higher resolution back?

Which would be a better buy?

They are very different backs.

The P21 on high image quality shoots faster than the p30 on the same setting and has close to the same useable iso.  The p21 has slightly more texture (grain) and is less smooth that the p30/p30+ but that comes down to a matter of taste.

Color is equal, the Plus series has a better lcd in soft subdued light the standard series has a much better lcd in bright direct sunlight.  

The main benefit of the plus series, (except for approx 1/2 stop of more usable higher iso) is if you tether with long cords or have firewire power issues, the plus series allows you to power the back from the camera back's battery rather than the computer.  

Both backs are bullet proof, both have microlenses, both produce a good look when the lighting is controlled.

The P21+ is very under rated and a good buy but for all around usefulness I would look into the p30+ and try to get a deal as you will have a lot more detail, smoother skin tones, better (slightly but useable) higher iso and a more modern back that will probably be viable for a longer time and in the long run a better investment.

Both backs (as with all phase) are bulletproof, both have great build quality and when tethering you can view the image on  back's lcd and on the computer.

[Snook]

I was always told for fashion the P30 was "better". also I believe the P30 may have less moire.. although my P30 has a butt load of moire.. specially on cheap fabrics which is usually what I am shooting...:+}
Easily removed so far but sometimes get the pattern there and cannot remove it with anything!!!
Snook

[Justin Berman]

The plus series also handles MUCH longer exposures. At least that is what I get out of the phase literature.

What I want to know is why the p30+ is less expensive than the p25+! Is it purely about the ccd size?

[clawery]

They are very different backs.

The P21 on high image quality shoots faster than the p30 on the same setting and has close to the same useable iso.  The p21 has slightly more texture (grain) and is less smooth that the p30/p30+ but that comes down to a matter of taste.

Color is equal, the Plus series has a better lcd in soft subdued light the standard series has a much better lcd in bright direct sunlight.  

The main benefit of the plus series, (except for approx 1/2 stop of more usable higher iso) is if you tether with long cords or have firewire power issues, the plus series allows you to power the back from the camera back's battery rather than the computer.  

Both backs are bullet proof, both have microlenses, both produce a good look when the lighting is controlled.

The P21+ is very under rated and a good buy but for all around usefulness I would look into the p30+ and try to get a deal as you will have a lot more detail, smoother skin tones, better (slightly but useable) higher iso and a more modern back that will probably be viable for a longer time and in the long run a better investment.

Both backs (as with all phase) are bulletproof, both have great build quality and when tethering you can view the image on  back's lcd and on the computer.

Cooter is spot on with what he is telling you.  The big question is what are you planning on shooting with either digital back.  Certain backs lend themselves for specific shooting and shooting styles.
The P45+ is a great back, but I don't know if would be a good fit for a fashion shooter.   It is a great back for an architectural shooter though.  The 1.1 lens factor allows you to shoot with wide lenses, but architectural shooters work at a slower pace than fashion/ portrait photographers.

Please note that the P30 and P30+ aren't recommended for technical cameras such as the Cambo WDS/ RS, Horesman SWD or Alpa style cameras with anything wider than a 47mm lens.  I have been told that the P21/P21+ can work on technical cameras, but have not personally tested them.

I would be glad to answer any other questions if you like.  Please feel to PM me or e-mail me directly.

Happy Holidays!

Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
chris@captureintegration.com
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year

877-217-9870 | National  Atlanta / Miami
404-234-5195 | Cell  
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[Doug Peterson]

Image Quality is very nearly the same, though each + does modestly better at higher ISOs than its non plus counter part. Also the P30+ can go to 1600 ISO (decent results) while the P30 can only go to 800.

Color is equal, the Plus series has a better lcd in soft subdued light the standard series has a much better lcd in bright direct sunlight.

True.

The main benefit of the plus series, (except for approx 1/2 stop of more usable higher iso) is if you tether with long cords or have firewire power issues, the plus series allows you to power the back from the camera back's battery rather than the computer.

Only the P25 non-plus lacks the option to power the back from the on-board battery. For the P25 Capture Integration (not Phase One) has created a $25 firewire cable adapter which removes the power from the firewire and thereby forces the P25 to use battery power. The P21/P21+, P30/P30+, P25/P25+, and P45/P45+ all have the [Menu > Configuration > Power Source > Battery] Option. Honestly I'm not sure about the P20 as we don't have them in hand very often.

 

The P21+ is very under rated and a good buy but for all around usefulness I would look into the p30+ and try to get a deal as you will have a lot more detail, smoother skin tones, better (slightly but useable) higher iso and a more modern back that will probably be viable for a longer time and in the long run a better investment.

This is the best possible summary. The P21 at 18 megapixels can easily go head-to-head with a 1Ds III at 21 megapixels on resolved detail, and far outperforms it on dynamic range, gradient smoothness, noise at low ISO etc (of course the 1DsIII will be faster, have faster AF, and perform much better at very high ISOs). So the P21 should not be underestimated. That said, the P30+ is a very large step up in resolution (assuming you're using good glass, lighting, technique) and is a better long term investment.

I was always told for fashion the P30 was "better". also I believe the P30 may have less moire.. although my P30 has a butt load of moire.. specially on cheap fabrics which is usually what I am shooting...:+}
Easily removed so far but sometimes get the pattern there and cannot remove it with anything!!!
Snook

Anything, including your eyes, can experience moire (think two screen doors stacked together). The P30, P45, and P65 will moire less often than the 20, 21, and 25 because of higher pixel density. There is some mis-information about this out there because for any given back/lens/fabric there are different distances at which moire occurs, so a P30 may moire in a specific situation where a P21 does not, but in general will moire much less often.

Technical photo design is all about trade-offs. Canons and Nikons use what effectively is a softening filter in front of their sensor called an anti aliasing filter (AA filter) to extremely reduce moire. But the AA filter softens the image and loses micro-detail. Every shooter is different, but in general if you're not shooting mostly clothing then moire is not a deal breaker. If you are then a P30 would be a much better choice.

The plus series also handles MUCH longer exposures. At least that is what I get out of the phase literature.

What I want to know is why the p30+ is less expensive than the p25+! Is it purely about the ccd size?

Max Exposure Time
Plus Series: one hour at 63F / 17C, three hours at 30F / -1C (chart)
Non Plus Series: "Several minutes"

P25+ is roughly the same as the higher resolution P30+ because of the larger chip size and the flexibility to use it on a technical or view camera.

=======

Another difference not previously mentioned (it is minor, but I add it for completeness). The plus series will never run into a buffer. This means the frame rate will be consistent no matter how much you shoot. With a non plus you rarely hit a buffer, but it is possible if you're shooting constantly for an extended period (nothing near like a ZD or a Canon where the buffer is easy to hit). This only applies to shooting to a CF card, when shooting to the computer there is never a buffer limit.

Doug Peterson,  Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer  |  Personal Portfolio

[Doug Peterson]

Please note that the P30 and P30+ aren't recommended for technical cameras such as the Cambo WDS/ RS, Horesman SWD or Alpa style cameras with anything wider than a 47mm lens.  I have been told that the P21/P21+ can work on technical cameras, but have not personally tested them.

The P21 can be used on a view camera or technical camera with limitation. While a P25/45/60 can be used with even an extreme swing/tilt/rise/fall/shift the P21 can only be used up to around 20 degrees  of swing or tilt or modest rise/fall/shift.

Doug

Doug Peterson,  Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer  |  Personal Portfolio

[ziocan]

=======

Another difference not previously mentioned (it is minor, but I add it for completeness). The plus series will never run into a buffer. This means the frame rate will be consistent no matter how much you shoot. With a non plus you rarely hit a buffer, but it is possible if you're shooting constantly for an extended period (nothing near like a ZD or a Canon where the buffer is easy to hit). This only applies to shooting to a CF card, when shooting to the computer there is never a buffer limit.

Doug Peterson,  Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer  |  Personal Portfolio

It is a nice feeling of never hitting the buffer using a Phase back, that is undeniable. And shooting fashion in studio with strobes we hardly need of going faster than the pace a Phase back allows.
On the other hand, It should be taken on consideration, that by the time we get 30/40 captures with a phase back, we probably are at 60 something when shooting with a 1ds3 and ready to go to the next shot, or even better with the Sony a900 which write fairly faster and more efficiently than the Canon. The a900 fires  14/15 frames on about 3 seconds and flush the buffer on 5 to 7 seconds. that is more than 120 captures per minute. I normally do not use my cameras like that, and I do not see many practical applications for shooting on that manner, but DSLR can have their advantages.