Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?

[ziocan]

I suspect we will soon -- as early as the end of 2009 -- be left with just two companies in the MF playing field as far as backs are concerned.  I think the market (demand) simply isn't large enough to support them all (supply), and with the proliferation of sub $3,000 20+ MP DSLR's, the MF DB market will be hit hard...

For sure the digital backs will have to be sold for the price they are really worth.
A 60mp back should be 12K maximum and a 22MP back should be 3K, all the other should fall in the middle.
They are not that sophisticated piece of hardware and software after all. At least not anymore for today standards.

[Guy Mancuso]

Why not? Are you talking about lenses? body? back? software? integration? support?

All of it to be honest. Let's just leave it at that. It just does not work for me on any level.

[mcfoto]

Been an interesting year for us, shooting way more with the 1DsMKIII. I find the camera tethered bullet proof & it feels like the old EOS1 film camera I used for years. Last month I sold the ZD camera as it wasn't getting much use anymore. I still think the ZD camera was a good idea but needs a massive update. With the new Dalsa 48mp chip that is 36x48mm put that in this camera with a new 3" lcd & then get it to fire at 1.0 f/s. Drop FW 400 & get it ready for USB 3.0. Keep the price at about $7000.00 USD & it could work. To do so Phase would have get on board. Just a dream & I really doubt this will happen. The Leica S2 doesn't make sense with a 30x45mm sensor. Or better yet Mamiya could go to RED & use there 42x56mm CMOS sensor that is coming out in 14 months on the new 9K camera that takes the Mamiya 645 mount. We are keeping our Mamiya kit & will continue to rent the Aptus & will look to see on eBay the price of Aptus 75s backs. Be interesting to see what Leaf does with the new Dalsa 48mp chip?
Denis

[EricWHiss]

Why not? Are you talking about lenses? body? back? software? integration? support?

Most likely he never even used it. He and Jack run a workshop for mostly amateurs  - one of which had a Hy6 who had trouble with it but later admitted it was user error.  Guy and Jack have attacked Sinar and the Hy6 ever since.  Might also be worth noting that CI representatives attended their workshops and they don't sell the Sinar stuff since they sell Phase stuff and of course Mamiya.  I'm not saying either one is better than the other, but if you bother to read their forums - then the bias will be clear.  One poster there had to go through 3 mamiya lenses to get a good one and had a camera body problem too all of which were laughed off,  but even minor problems with the sinar (if they were not all user error) were latched onto like a pit bull and will likely be carried forward until CI or whichever their favorite vendor decides to sell them.

[Jack Flesher]

Guy and Jack have attacked Sinar and the Hy6

Uh Eric, please point to any single post where I have "attacked" Sinar.  IOW put up or retract, and then shut up.   And in the future leave me out of your private little pissing match.  

(Note there was also a certain Sinar rep that *claimed* I attacked Sinar, but he never showed any post to that effect either...)

[Guy Mancuso]

Most likely he never even used it. He and Jack run a workshop for mostly amateurs  - one of which had a Hy6 who had trouble with it but later admitted it was user error.  Guy and Jack have attacked Sinar and the Hy6 ever since.  Might also be worth noting that CI representatives attended their workshops and they don't sell the Sinar stuff since they sell Phase stuff and of course Mamiya.  I'm not saying either one is better than the other, but if you bother to read their forums - then the bias will be clear.  One poster there had to go through 3 mamiya lenses to get a good one and had a camera body problem too all of which were laughed off,  but even minor problems with the sinar (if they were not all user error) were latched onto like a pit bull and will likely be carried forward until CI or whichever their favorite vendor decides to sell them.

You believe whatever you want and i am sure you where told many things but yes i have used it on several occasions within my workshops and outside of them also. BTW It was NOT user error only and i never attacked the Sinar product except to say it does not work for me and i pointed out a few reasons why in the past other than that your full of crap. I have no bias towards anything except for products that work and BTW our workshop video is loaded with Sinar and Sinar Bron gear in it so again get your facts straight before you slander and attack good people in this industry, take your personal shit outside. Your post here is considered slander and it hurts peoples good name and there business. Besides that most of it is all lies. You have no facts about anything just assumptions. BTW we have leica also support our workshops and Leaf wants to also, Sinar did in our lighting workshop along with Profoto and we receive not one nickel for it. So what's your beef , most workshops and schools have support from vendors. I suggest you get your facts straight before you assume anything otherwise stay out of peoples business when you don't belong in it.
Here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXkUl2sMg6g

[Guy Mancuso]

Eric this is one of your posts . Care to retract your comments

Yeah, maybe if Thierry came to the US, I'd actually be able to test a sinar back. So far all my efforts have been futile as the only one dealer nearby, Calumet San Francisco, just seems to not care about Sinar. Even when I have made appointments weeks in advance specifically to view and test the Sinar Hy6, they have not managed to have it there or ready, or have "forgotten" to charge the batteries. But they always seem to be ready with the Leaf or Phase backs and even willing to let me take one to my studio for a day or two. Why does Sinar get the cold shoulder? Thierry I know you would fix this were you here!

[jing q]

agree with bcooter
so I'm expected to pay for Hasselblad prices for a Mamiya system that wants to be on par with a hasselblad.
EXCEPT
That the only Hasselblad quality items this Mamiya has so far is the 28d, 45d, 80d and 150d, and the rest of the lenses are still pretty old and sometimes suspect and feel like pieces of plastic.
If mamiya released a whole upgraded system of lenses and accessories that were befitting of the price tag they were trying to go for that would be good, but they seem confused at the moment.

yes Mamiyas are hard to find in rental houses these days.Find me a rental house that's renting AFDIII. And if these cameras are not getting into the hands of professionals then the only impression they're getting of mamiya is the AFDII which has its share of problems.

Also, it's been a very very very rare occurance where I have to shoot 1/2000th of a second on ANY camera I've ever used.
I guess you're lucky to get that much light where you are, but chances are if you're shooting landscapes you're stopping down and if you're shooting people you would be scrimming and flagging to soften such a harsh light in the first place.
I would be so happy if I could even hit 1/400th of a second in the kind of work I do outdoors.

As far as finding a medium format camera in rental around the world in almost any market, first would be a hasselblad h body (probably with a phase back, with leaf  a distant second) and then a few places will have Mamiya's afd 1's or 2's but very few AFDIII's if any.

I understand the Mamiya III is better, but it had nowhere to go but up so I don't now if that means that much.  It's still a work a progress as firmware updates  requires the camera has to be sent into service and shutter lag is still present, lenses and right angle grips are still waiting and it has a non removable viewfinder.    It makes the Contax with Zeiss lenses look like a modern system and be realistic you can buy two Cotnax's and lenses for the price of the new Mamiya's and forget about rentals.

[EricWHiss]

You believe whatever you want and i am sure you where told many things but yes i have used it on several occasions within my workshops and outside of them also. BTW It was NOT user error only and i never attacked the Sinar product except to say it does not work for me and i pointed out a few reasons why in the past other than that your full of crap. I have no bias towards anything except for products that work and BTW our workshop video is loaded with Sinar and Sinar Bron gear in it so again get your facts straight before you slander and attack good people in this industry, take your personal shit outside. Your post here is considered slander and it hurts peoples good name and there business. Besides that most of it is all lies. You have no facts about anything just assumptions. BTW we have leica also support our workshops and Leaf wants to also, Sinar did in our lighting workshop along with Profoto and we receive not one nickel for it. So what's your beef , most workshops and schools have support from vendors. I suggest you get your facts straight before you assume anything otherwise stay out of peoples business when you don't belong in it.
Here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXkUl2sMg6g

Wow! Touched a nerve did I?  But you have acknowledged the support from vendors - which is exactly as I suspected.    I'd suggest if you want more credibility to be upfront about those business relationships ( shall we assume that you also have support from Dale Camera (dfarkas) who sells leica stuff.

Guy aren't you the one that pulled out the plug on the what was it 1000 posts long thread called the Leica DMR bible on FredMiranda Forums in a fit of anger?  That couldn't have made you many friends. Is your reply here more thought out than that move was?

[EricWHiss]

Eric this is one of your posts . Care to retract your comments

Yeah, maybe if Thierry came to the US, I'd actually be able to test a sinar back. So far all my efforts have been futile as the only one dealer nearby, Calumet San Francisco, just seems to not care about Sinar. Even when I have made appointments weeks in advance specifically to view and test the Sinar Hy6, they have not managed to have it there or ready, or have "forgotten" to charge the batteries. But they always seem to be ready with the Leaf or Phase backs and even willing to let me take one to my studio for a day or two. Why does Sinar get the cold shoulder? Thierry I know you would fix this were you here!

No I don't feel the need to take anything back. That's an old post from long ago (what's the date more than 1 year ago?) and was more a problem with a single Calumet sales rep than anything with Sinar.   I receive  immediate replies from Thierry on my Sinar questions, but also got personal calls from Dave King at Sinar and Mark Mather after making those posts.     I still shoot with my Phase back and will consider Sinar/Hy6 as an option if I ever upgrade.  The files from the new sinar back with in camera DNG look very good and I think that will solve a lot of work flow issues.


Oh and thanks for deleting me on GETdpi -  I just went over there to do that and see you've beat me too it.  Been meaning to do it for a while now.

[Guy Mancuso]

agree with bcooter
so I'm expected to pay for Hasselblad prices for a Mamiya system that wants to be on par with a hasselblad.
EXCEPT
That the only Hasselblad quality items this Mamiya has so far is the 28d, 45d, 80d and 150d, and the rest of the lenses are still pretty old and sometimes suspect and feel like pieces of plastic.
If mamiya released a whole upgraded system of lenses and accessories that were befitting of the price tag they were trying to go for that would be good, but they seem confused at the moment.

yes Mamiyas are hard to find in rental houses these days.Find me a rental house that's renting AFDIII. And if these cameras are not getting into the hands of professionals then the only impression they're getting of mamiya is the AFDII which has its share of problems.

Also, it's been a very very very rare occurance where I have to shoot 1/2000th of a second on ANY camera I've ever used.
I guess you're lucky to get that much light where you are, but chances are if you're shooting landscapes you're stopping down and if you're shooting people you would be scrimming and flagging to soften such a harsh light in the first place.
I would be so happy if I could even hit 1/400th of a second in the kind of work I do outdoors.

Depends on what you shoot of course , i do a lot of different types of work so it works in my favor. I agree Hassy is more well known in the rental houses and also in many retail shops. I actually almost went Hassy and I do like there system. Mamiya is improving and there D lenses are very good so is the price high but they work great. It is not the perfect system but none of them are . I do like a more DSLR feel though and the Hassy and Sinar do not have that type of feel to me. But i am certainly looking forward to a new body from Phase and or more updates that improve it more. I think Phase will be around for the long haul and I think Hassy will also, not sure on others and i don't follow them either. Some lenses feel like plastic like the 55mm for instance but it produces very well and used at 500 dollars that is pretty good. Try there 300mm 4.5 Af lens another sleeper. Very sharp and i shoot that wide open shooting runway at high shutter speeds. Like I said several times pick what works best . BTW you can buy a AFDIII overnight to your door, not cheap but they are out there if you really need them. i don't rent much in camera's myself but i know many do . If anything i will rent extra lighting but own the camera's. What i like the best of the system by far is the back and c1. And i could always switch to a H2 but I don't see that need .

[Guy Mancuso]

Wow! Touched a nerve did I?  But you have acknowledged the support from vendors - which is exactly as I suspected.    I'd suggest if you want more credibility to be upfront about those business relationships ( shall we assume that you also have support from Dale Camera (dfarkas) who sells leica stuff.

Guy aren't you the one that pulled out the plug on the what was it 1000 posts long thread called the Leica DMR bible on FredMiranda Forums in a fit of anger?  That couldn't have made you many friends.

Eric what is your point, I never said we did not get support from vendors . Almost every workshop, school , class or seminar has vendors that come to them to give demo's . Every workshop that we have we tell the world who is coming to give those demo's. Look at any workshop , seminar and others and almost everyone has the support from Adobe, Apple , Canon, Nikon and many others. Honestly what the hell are you talking about. Michael has Phase on his upcoming workshop in Antarctica. Honestly what are you even talking about here. This is honestly a very weird comment. None of us get a penny for letting these folks come on our workshops or better yet come onto our forums. It is all voluntary on our part and there part for them to come. Don't believe me ask Mr Reichman. Your trying to make something from nothing, not working sorry


And what in the world does pulling my thread have anything to do with anything at ALL. What in the world are you talking about. Touched a nerve , when out right lies are being said . YES

Eric why are you attacking me , tell me what in the world did i ever say to you to get this stuff to begin with. Seriously this is very childish are you a working Pro that builds his business on his reputation. Tell me when did i go after your clients and tell lies about you or said something bad to your neighbor or what on a public forum say something bad about you.

Eric let me give you a little clue, i don't work for anyone and do not get paid by anyone other than my clients that pay me to shoot and people that attend my workshops.  So what is YOUR point trying to trash talk people .

[Guy Mancuso]

No I don't feel the need to take anything back. That's an old post from long ago (what's the date more than 1 year ago?) and was more a problem with a single Calumet sales rep than anything with Sinar.   I receive  immediate replies from Thierry on my Sinar questions, but also got personal calls from Dave King at Sinar and Mark Mather after making those posts.     I still shoot with my Phase back and will consider Sinar/Hy6 as an option if I ever upgrade.  The files from the new sinar back with in camera DNG look very good and I think that will solve a lot of work flow issues.


Oh and thanks for deleting me on GETdpi -  I just went over there to do that and see you've beat me too it.  Been meaning to do it for a while now.

I did nothing. Had no clue you were still even a member

[mcfoto]

agree with bcooter
so I'm expected to pay for Hasselblad prices for a Mamiya system that wants to be on par with a hasselblad.
EXCEPT
That the only Hasselblad quality items this Mamiya has so far is the 28d, 45d, 80d and 150d, and the rest of the lenses are still pretty old and sometimes suspect and feel like pieces of plastic.
If mamiya released a whole upgraded system of lenses and accessories that were befitting of the price tag they were trying to go for that would be good, but they seem confused at the moment.

yes Mamiyas are hard to find in rental houses these days.Find me a rental house that's renting AFDIII. And if these cameras are not getting into the hands of professionals then the only impression they're getting of mamiya is the AFDII which has its share of problems.

Also, it's been a very very very rare occurance where I have to shoot 1/2000th of a second on ANY camera I've ever used.
I guess you're lucky to get that much light where you are, but chances are if you're shooting landscapes you're stopping down and if you're shooting people you would be scrimming and flagging to soften such a harsh light in the first place.
I would be so happy if I could even hit 1/400th of a second in the kind of work I do outdoors.

Hi
I have shot with both the 120 lenses on the Hasselblad & Mamiya ( not the D lens ) & there about the same. Really you are comparing Fugi vrs Mamiya here. I have shot billboards with the old Mamiya 80mm lens along with the old 150mm, very sharp. Each to their own & there has been plenty of debate over Hasselblad vrs Mamiya over the years.
Denis

[thsinar]

WOW!

Are you such sure of that?: shutter lag and fastest AF?

I see that such comments go on and on: are you trying to "brainwash"?

Thierry

FWIW,  at present Mamiya has the shortest shutter lag of all the MF systems. Its AF is on par with or faster than Hassy, both of which are faster than any of the other competition...

[thsinar]

Amen, Mr. Mancuso.

Thierry

It's a good question. Let's look what already has happened Sinar and leaf have agreed on shared technology, read into that what you will or believe. Hassy has significantly cut prices by as much as 10k just on the H39 and lowered the H31 considerably. Phase and Leica have agreed to some terms on the S2 that one still is in negotiations and no one really knows what that will mean yet. Than look at what mostly has come out new P65 Plus coming H50 coming leaf announced a couple new formats, Sinar had a couple new entries there 65 and tech camera. I know i maybe missing a few things but does not matter , what does matter is things are going on and the market is shrinking. Plus you do have the Sony A900, Canon big gun and the Nikon D3X all nipping at the tails of MF. Than on top of that Leica S2 coming in the summer and rumors of Nikon jumping in. Plus we have no idea what is going on behind closed door meetings within each company and there survival for 09 plans. How to gain market share in tough economic times and where does the cash flow come from. How and who to layoff or not. Bottom line i don't care what anyone says and if anyone does it will be spin anyway. There has to be and will be some shakeups with all of them and there simply is no way of getting around it. I think a lot of parent companies will say enough is enough too and let them slide off there game plan. If shareholders get no value than heads will roll and something will have to be done. i did the corporate thing for 16 years and bottom line above all else is shareholder value . If there is none they will find a way to find it and that is not a good thing. Reason i said i am sitting back and watch what happens.

[thsinar]

bcooter,

it is shipping.

Best regards,
Thierry

... the only real announcement of substance with the 31mpx Sinar that promised a good lcd, in camera jpegs and a revolving back but since announcekina they have gone quiet on all fronts.

[thsinar]

There are some who are able to and give themselves the right to predict, obviously!

Best regards,
Thierry

Edit: Unlike some I would never predict on an open forum the demise of any company , camera or otherwise.

[thsinar]

Mr. Mancuso,

I am still here, as you can see, and still amazed at the way you have to "bring things up" and "inform" members of a forum.

Thierry

All of it to be honest. Let's just leave it at that. It just does not work for me on any level.

[thsinar]

Mr. Flesher,

I kindly but firmly ask you to stop immediately your "claims", together with your partner. We three know what we are speaking about, others are not interested. Facts are what they are and I have nothing to show to you or your partner, at least not here and in this place.

Leave this place a sane and professional one like it has always been, both of you.

Thierry

Uh Eric, please point to any single post where I have "attacked" Sinar.  IOW put up or retract, and then shut up.   And in the future leave me out of your private little pissing match.  

(Note there was also a certain Sinar rep that *claimed* I attacked Sinar, but he never showed any post to that effect either...)