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Author Topic: Store Images On Flash Cards?  (Read 9502 times)

dwdallam

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« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2008, 07:10:03 am »

Quote from: pom
Of course that is only as safe as the finances of the company running the service, witness Digital Railroad...

NOt for Newsgroups it isn't. They propagate over thousands of servers besides the one you upload to or subscribe to.
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Ben Rubinstein

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« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2008, 01:30:49 pm »

Quote from: dwdallam
NOt for Newsgroups it isn't. They propagate over thousands of servers besides the one you upload to or subscribe to.

Tell me more, seriously...

BTW I hold you personally responsible (the CS4 thread) for me upgrading to 64 bit, buying 8GB more of RAM and now I've made a striped disk just for scratch/page file/Bridge cache. Appreciate your advice there.  
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jjj

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« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2008, 04:56:41 pm »

Quote from: joedecker
Cheaper than 35mm slides.  I did the calculations a couple years back and it was already true, so I'd guess it's true now (even if my file sizes have gone up.)

I never considered slides "ridiculously expensive."  All a matter of perspective, I guess.
Ah, but you forget that when people shoot digital, they will shoot a lot more photos than when using slide. A lot more.
I spent a couple of week in China, just before I switched to digital and shot just over 40 rolls of film.  Approximately 1600 images [and one battery would last almost exactly 40 rolls]. That was considered a lot of film.
People casually shoot a thousand pictures in a day now!
I also had a Canon Ixus 2.1M camera with a 'huge' and quite expensive 256M card and made it and the 64M card last the entire trip!
I've done jobs that I could not have afforded to do on film, as there was so much to shoot and for extended periods of time. I've even shot for 24hrs straight, with a different model or models every 20mins - 84 in total I think.

I gave up on DVDs for back up a long time ago as 4G was simply too small and slow to bother with. So compact flash would be very expensive a proposition. Last big trip I had 2x320G and 1x500G laptop drives with me.

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lumpidu

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Store Images On Flash Cards?
« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2009, 10:30:02 am »

I am in the embedded computer business and we use CF cards as a reliable data storage for our data. We guarantee our customers 10 years lifetime for our products. We are using industrial grade CF cards which also have internal capacitors to survice a sudden power loss, so these are able to store what is already in the internal buffers.

IMHO what is the main problem with CF cards is flash wear / wear levelling and the used file system. FAT16 or FAT32 don't use any journalling, so these file systems can get corrupted if unconnected from the computer unexpectedly. Formattting CF cards with an appropriate file system is key for reliable backup. Mac OS X has AFS, Linux has ext3, Windows has NTFS. These are reliable file systems. Used on a rugged industrial grade CF card, these should be safe for almost 10 years.

But then again using these file systems for continuous write access is also not good, because the update of the file system journal causes wear on the CF card flash and the internal wear levelling will mark the worn out sectors as defect and copies the contents to some new place until no capacity is free anymore.

Best is to use FAT32 formatted industrial grade CF cards for the Camera and copy these over to industrial grade CF cards which use a journalling file system. Industrial grade CF have a wider temperature range (-30 - +85 degree Celsius) and a much higher MTBF. Buy two or three different CF card readers for USB 2.0 and you should be fine for the next 10 years, as USB will stay at least for that time.

As for price per GB: High reliability costs more and is more inconvenient, but you get what you pay for.

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dwdallam

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« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2009, 12:51:27 am »

Quote from: pom
Tell me more, seriously...

BTW I hold you personally responsible (the CS4 thread) for me upgrading to 64 bit, buying 8GB more of RAM and now I've made a striped disk just for scratch/page file/Bridge cache. Appreciate your advice there.  


Probably won't work--hehehe. Really though, it is much more crisp and tight feeling. Plus you get the new ACR with all the tools LR2 has, except you don;t get dual up windows, before and after live view with ACR. Let us know what you think.

Newsgroups have been around I think before the "web" actually. They were around before AOL first launched. I would google "Newsgroups wiki" and read teh wiki file on them. It's thorough.
LINK: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newsgroup
 
Here is an excerpt:

How newsgroups work

Newsgroup servers are hosted by various organizations and institutions. Most Internet service providers host their own news servers, or rent access to one, for their subscribers. There are also a number of companies who sell access to premium news servers.

Every host of a news server maintains agreements with other news servers to regularly synchronize. In this way news servers form a network. When a user posts to one news server, the message is stored locally. That server then shares the message with the servers that are connected to it if both carry the newsgroup, and from those servers to servers that they are connected to, and so on. For newsgroups that are not widely carried, sometimes a carrier group is used for crossposting to aid distribution. This is typically only useful for groups that have been removed or newer alt.* groups. Crossposts between hierarchies, outside of the Big 8 and alt.* hierarchies, are failure prone.

So you can see that your information will be stored on millions of servers for up to 3+ months at a time. Find a newsgroup that isn't active, like alt.pears.salad and upload your files using RAR split into chunks of 100MG each. Password protect the split file so no one can get into it. Uploading to Newsgroups is an art, so you'll need to understand how it works. There are programs that can do all the preparatory crap for you. The problem is that New servers don't allow you to upload a huge file. They want it broken down into smaller files, and the size is relatively small for each chunk. With large files you literally end up with 1, 000s of small chunks, but using a news reader, you don't see all of that./ You just see the entire file. Anyway, good luck on that :0

You can, however, use the news servers (hosts) for your own file storage because there are literally no limits on newsgroups. As long as you are posting to a group that allows file uploads, you're ok. It's pretty much the wild wild west and last area that is totally unmonitored and "anything goes." Oh boy, you find some real winners on that format. Many of them so vitriolic that they can;t post anywhere else on the internet, so they find news  groups to vent their hate and ignorance.

On the other hand, you can get some really good information that you will not get ANYWHERE else. A good example is war footage from Iraq. If you live in the US, our current administration has issued a black out of "negative" reporting on the war. So if you want to see what it's really like in Iraq when an IUD goes off and cremates a Bradley, you can find that stuff on Newsgroups--uncut, uncensored, etc. I don't remember the name of the American that had his head decapitated on TV, as he was sitting there under several terrorist, but of course you will never see any of that in the US. I saw the entire captioned file footage after finding the video uncensored on Usenet. It brought a whole new meaning to the word "violence" to my vocabulary, among other things, since it was no movie and very visceral . Once things states don't want in public view gets to the Usenet, it's there forever pretty much, as long as people keep "upping it" and your country doesn't start censoring information on the internet--such as China does by blocking specific pathways.  In that sense, it's a really good service. Also, many corporations use Newgroups instead of or in addition too forums, since they are free and have no maintenance fee associated with them--or bandwidth fees. In fact, Adobe uses them, as does MS.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2009, 01:09:53 am by dwdallam »
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dwdallam

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« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2009, 01:10:47 am »

Quote from: jjj
Ah, but you forget that when people shoot digital, they will shoot a lot more photos than when using slide. A lot more.
I spent a couple of week in China, just before I switched to digital and shot just over 40 rolls of film.  Approximately 1600 images [and one battery would last almost exactly 40 rolls]. That was considered a lot of film.
People casually shoot a thousand pictures in a day now!
I also had a Canon Ixus 2.1M camera with a 'huge' and quite expensive 256M card and made it and the 64M card last the entire trip!
I've done jobs that I could not have afforded to do on film, as there was so much to shoot and for extended periods of time. I've even shot for 24hrs straight, with a different model or models every 20mins - 84 in total I think.

I gave up on DVDs for back up a long time ago as 4G was simply too small and slow to bother with. So compact flash would be very expensive a proposition. Last big trip I had 2x320G and 1x500G laptop drives with me.


Use Blueray disks. They hold 50GB.
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dwdallam

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« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2009, 01:15:47 am »

Quote from: lumpidu
I am in the embedded computer business and we use CF cards as a reliable data storage for our data. We guarantee our customers 10 years lifetime for our products. We are using industrial grade CF cards which also have internal capacitors to survice a sudden power loss, so these are able to store what is already in the internal buffers.

IMHO what is the main problem with CF cards is flash wear / wear levelling and the used file system. FAT16 or FAT32 don't use any journalling, so these file systems can get corrupted if unconnected from the computer unexpectedly. Formattting CF cards with an appropriate file system is key for reliable backup. Mac OS X has AFS, Linux has ext3, Windows has NTFS. These are reliable file systems. Used on a rugged industrial grade CF card, these should be safe for almost 10 years.

But then again using these file systems for continuous write access is also not good, because the update of the file system journal causes wear on the CF card flash and the internal wear levelling will mark the worn out sectors as defect and copies the contents to some new place until no capacity is free anymore.

Best is to use FAT32 formatted industrial grade CF cards for the Camera and copy these over to industrial grade CF cards which use a journalling file system. Industrial grade CF have a wider temperature range (-30 - +85 degree Celsius) and a much higher MTBF. Buy two or three different CF card readers for USB 2.0 and you should be fine for the next 10 years, as USB will stay at least for that time.

As for price per GB: High reliability costs more and is more inconvenient, but you get what you pay for.


What about the new SSDs coming out now? Would they offer the same type of reliability for storage? And again, why not just use hard drives? Buy a few 120GB 2.5 inch laptop drives, copy the files, and put them in a small fireproof, waterproof safe? 120Gb for like 50 bucks.
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jjj

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« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2009, 06:04:51 pm »

Quote from: dwdallam
Use Blueray disks. They hold 50GB.
I was talking about travelling - Not so good then as laptop doesn't have a BluRay burner and I'm not going to bother with the bulk of of an external one, when I want to reduce weight not increase it. My next laptop will have a BluRay burner, depends if Apple add them, if not and they stick with the stupid mirrors they currently have for screens, it'll be a PC laptop. The other thing is the slowness of burning data, as opposed to copying it to a hard drive.
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