Laptop Display with Usable Viewing Angles

[richardh]

Dear Friends,

Thought I might ask for advice from some of you that may have been down the path recently of buying a new PC laptop with an LCD you can actually use.

I just picked up an HP DV5t series laptop that is now running CS4 and Lightroom under Vista 64 quite smoothly. I am very satisfied with it from a performance perspective and like the machine itself, however the viewing angle on the LCD is just too narrow to be seriously usable. It has been calibrated properly with my i1 Photo but it still has a viewing angle that is only a very few degrees horizontally or vertically before shadows start to block up and colors invert.

I'm fairly tech-savvy and understand the basic problem is the limitation of the TN panels being sold in most laptops today. I use both Lacie CRTs and S-IPS LCDs panels on my workstations for post-processing, and haven't actually been using a laptop for any part of my workflow. I only purchased this HP DV5t to do some tethered shooting and image sorting/evaluation in the field when I don't have access to my home systems. So even though I don't expect to do serious image editing on the laptop, it would be really nice to be able to actually see an image without having to be perfectly positioned within the LCD's "sweet spot", constantly adjusting the screen angle or changing my viewing position after taking a shot when tethered just to see the image.

I used an IBM/Lenovo T60 with a nice Flexview S-IPS screen in days past and I know that I could probably take the route of finding another used one or a Mac/Intel machine, but I'd rather buy into a fresh system. Scanning through the forums I know this isn't a new problem, and whether you are PC or Mac-based, the same issues are showing up on many new models. I prefer to stay with PCs since my workstations and software are running under Windows (and definitely don't want to stir up any controversy on that old topic) - but would really appreciate any suggestions.

I'd also like to stay with the HP line if possible but am not married to the brand. However, I was wondering if anyone has used the new HP HDX16 series since they claim it has a very nice screen and considerably wider viewing angles. Unfortunately, nobody I've talked to really seems to know what they've done with their HDX panels that is different from the DV5t TN panel in the machine I'm now using - they just say it is "greatly improved".

Since my final post-processing and print workflow will always be on my workstations with good monitors, I'll won't be using this laptop extensively and would like to stay in the modest range of $1,500 or less - still, it doesn't seem unreasonable to expect to actually see the image clearly on the laptop screen after capture. Any advice on something that has a viewable screen in that price range?

Thanks very much for any suggestions you may have - and very Happy Holidays to all!

Richard

[LoisWakeman]

Certainly wouldn't recommend my Dell Vostro's!

Have you seen this site (TFT Central), which has quite helpful info?

[richardh]

Certainly wouldn't recommend my Dell Vostro's!

Have you seen this site (TFT Central), which has quite helpful info?

Hi Lois,

Thanks for the link, and the cautionary word on the Dell Vostro.

I found the information on that site and in their forum to be very interesting. One of the first forum posts I came across was to another LCD info site called  LCD Tech . A quick scan of their Laptop LCD Panel section points sadly to the fact that there aren't any current laptops in their database that have anything better than the TN panels. I don't know if they cover everything available, but it seems consistent with what I've found so far.

The only recommendations I've received from other photographers to date have been for laptops with TN panels that are using the newer LED backlighting or dual CCFL bulbs - (Sony and Dell Studios) - that seem to help increase the viewing angles a bit. But nothing I've found yet is going to compare to the quality of an S-IPS panel like my old IBM T60, and they just don't seem to be available in new PC laptops.

The Dell Studio 15 and 17 both have some positive reviews for their LED backlit displays, with the caveat that Dell doesn't always use panels from the same source so whether you get a good panel is not as simple as just ordering the right machine configuration. I know Dell went through that and still does with their larger desktop monitors - some come off the line with nice S-IPS panels and some not - just the "luck of the draw"  

I do appreciate your help and pointing me to those resource sites - if you're on the quest for a new laptop yourself and/or hear of anything worth looking into, please let me know and I'll do likewise.

Thanks!
Richard

[Ansel42]

A few days ago I was able to compare three HP laptops side-by-side at my local Best Buy store. There was a dv7 (17"), an HDX16 (16.4") and a dv5 (15.4"). The HDX16t display had considerably better viewing angles than the other two models. Color and tonality were also superior, to the extent one can judge these things using the sample photo gallery that comes with Vista. The other two computers literally looked pale in comparison. In fact, I didn't see anything else in the store that came close to the HDX16 except a Sony VAIO FW series, also with a 16" screen (this store had about 50 laptops on display including Apple, Dell, Toshiba, Acer and Asus).

Interesting that the HDX16 and the Sony FW both have 16:9 ratio 720p HD screens and are targeted to entertainment applications. I am thinking perhaps the manufacturers put a better display into this sort of laptop, since they are effectively competing against small TVs. Just speculation on my part. But I think I will try an HDX16!

[richardh]

A few days ago I was able to compare three HP laptops side-by-side at my local Best Buy store. There was a dv7 (17"), an HDX16 (16.4") and a dv5 (15.4"). The HDX16t display had considerably better viewing angles than the other two models. Color and tonality were also superior, to the extent one can judge these things using the sample photo gallery that comes with Vista. The other two computers literally looked pale in comparison. In fact, I didn't see anything else in the store that came close to the HDX16 except a Sony VAIO FW series, also with a 16" screen (this store had about 50 laptops on display including Apple, Dell, Toshiba, Acer and Asus).

Interesting that the HDX16 and the Sony FW both have 16:9 ratio 720p HD screens and are targeted to entertainment applications. I am thinking perhaps the manufacturers put a better display into this sort of laptop, since they are effectively competing against small TVs. Just speculation on my part. But I think I will try an HDX16!

Thanks for the information on the HDX16. I also went to Best Buy and spent some time looking through their laptops - unfortunately, they didn't have an HDX16 in stock so I couldn't evaluate it - I have just been going by the fact that it the HP specs say it has a 55% increase in viewing angles (I don't expect that much increase in vertical viewing angle, but if the horizontal is that much improved then it seems logical the vertical angle would improve also). I really appreciate your confirmation on the perceptual difference between the three HP's.

All these systems are using TN panels, but there can be a considerable difference in quality between different TN vendors. I agree they must be using a better panel because of their target market and the fact they can cost-justify it. Also, the Sony FW has dual CCFL backlighting and I suspect that the HDX16 has the same - the more diffuse backlighting decreases light falloff at the wider viewing angles. The few other LCDs that have been recommended to me are using LED backlighting arrays, and that would create the same effect. I do wonder how much the increased viewing angle is achieved by pushing panel brightness - that is one factor that will change considerably when the display is calibrated.  

However, I like the build quality and features of the HP enough to take a chance on it, and also the fact that you can put 8GB of RAM in the HDX16 and its substantial GeForce video card w/512MB of dedicated memory. The video card should take advantage of the new CS4 features and all that memory should keep PS & Lightroom running smoothly... so I went ahead and put in an order for one today! Fortunately, there is always the backup "return policy" if the display doesn't meet expectations. If it doesn't, then I'll go to "Plan B"  

Thanks for your input - I really just needed to hear from a fellow photographer who had "eyes on" the HDX16 display to help me make my decision. I'll post my impressions here after receiving my machine - build time puts the ship date around January 2nd, so I should have it up, calibrated and running shortly thereafter. If you pick yours up from Best Buy sooner, do let me know what you think.

Regards,
Richard

[Ansel42]

You're welcome Richard. I'll be looking forward to your evaluation of the HDX16 display. Since my need is not totally pressing, I'm watching and waiting (wishfully hoping) for better deals on the build-to-order laptops to appear after holidays.

My scrutiny of the HDX16 specs on the HP website reveals the 1080p (high resolution) display option does in fact have dual back lights. It's not mentioned for the 720p display so I assume not. I think the high res display would be a pain to work with though, my eyes are not what they used to be, and  the high res display is pushing more pixels at the 16" screen than I have on my 20" monitor!

I agree the HDX16 hardware should run CS4 like a champ, what with the 4GB of RAM, Vista 64-bit OS, and Nvidia discrete graphics. That is, assuming the Nvidia drivers interface properly with CS4. Which ought to be the case, since the 9800 series of desktop cards work with CS4.

Did you configure your system with a 7200 RPM drive? I think that should also be a significant boost for Photoshop. But HP really charges for the 7200 RPM drives, and I am unsure of power consumption. I need to research that. I don't want to spec something that will kill battery life, this machine is already on the power hungry side. With HP's prices for the 7200 RPM drives, it is economical to retrofit one.

I also plan to add an external drive in an eSATA enclosure and use that for Photoshop swap. eSATA will run an external drive as fast as an internal interface so there should be no roadblocks to Photoshop performance. In fact, if I go with 7200 RPM drives internally and for external swap, I expect this laptop will run a circle or two around my aging desktop machine!

[richardh]

You're welcome Richard. I'll be looking forward to your evaluation of the HDX16 display. Since my need is not totally pressing, I'm watching and waiting (wishfully hoping) for better deals on the build-to-order laptops to appear after holidays.

I went through the same thing - but noticed that prices and "free upgrades" were varying almost daily coming up on the holidays - probably could have saved a bit if I'd ordered earlier, but I'm counting on "price matching" if we see a big drop between now and the end of the year.

My scrutiny of the HDX16 specs on the HP website reveals the 1080p (high resolution) display option does in fact have dual back lights. It's not mentioned for the 720p display so I assume not. I think the high res display would be a pain to work with though, my eyes are not what they used to be, and  the high res display is pushing more pixels at the 16" screen than I have on my 20" monitor!

Right you are on the dual back lights - don't know how I missed that in the specs, but I had assumed it was the case given the reviews of the quality and color fidelity for this model. I have the same concerns about text size for general applications on the 1080p display with my old eyes, but I've heard that some tweaking on text dpi can help with that. Image-processing wise within the Adobe Suite, I'm not too concerned and think the extra real estate and resolution will be worthwhile.

I agree the HDX16 hardware should run CS4 like a champ, what with the 4GB of RAM, Vista 64-bit OS, and Nvidia discrete graphics. That is, assuming the Nvidia drivers interface properly with CS4. Which ought to be the case, since the 9800 series of desktop cards work with CS4.

I'm running a P7350 on this DV5t and it's pretty snappy. I did bump up the processor on the HDX16 to a P8400, but the price/performance trade-off didn't seem worth going much higher. Besides, when the 4GB sims drop a bit more in price, I think I'll put my money there and upgrade to 8GB - it will give me better performance increase for the money. I also looked up the driver specs on the Nvidia website and they specifically mention using the GPU-accelerated features of CS4. So I'm hoping that will be fully functional on the HDX16, especially with 512MB of dedicated video memory. It will come in quite handy for being able to maximize image processing features within the available screen space with smooth display at all magnification levels, speed, etc. I checked the specs on the Adobe CS4/OpenGL page for laptops and their primary requirement (in addition to OpenGL support) is 128MB of dedicated memory and the HDX16 has 4X that amount of dedicated video memory so should be fine. Of course, there was a whole list of various general bugs not specific to the 9600M GT, so we'll see just how smoothly things go  
   

Did you configure your system with a 7200 RPM drive? I think that should also be a significant boost for Photoshop. But HP really charges for the 7200 RPM drives, and I am unsure of power consumption. I need to research that. I don't want to spec something that will reduce battery life, this machine is already on the power hungry side. With HP's prices for the 7200 RPM drives, it is economical to retrofit one.

I also plan to add an external drive in an eSATA enclosure and use that for Photoshop swap. eSATA will run an external drive as fast as an internal interface so there should be no roadblocks to Photoshop performance. In fact, if I go with 7200 RPM drives internally and for external swap, I expect this laptop will run a circle or two around my aging desktop machine!

I didn't go for the 7200 RPM drive for just the reasons you mentioned. Without knowing what kind of drives they use in the HDX16, I thought I'd make a determination on this later. To start with, I just picked the 320GB that was standard. The DV5t I'm using is equipped with a 320GB 5400 RPM Fujitsu drive, and it's reasonably quick and easy on the battery. Not sure if drive utilization has changed from CS3 to CS4, but in earlier versions the speed of the OS & program drives were not as critical as the swap & data drives once everything is up and running, so using a 7200 RPM external eSATA there makes good sense - and a nice 500GB eSATA Seagate is under the $100 price point now.

Also, I want to do a little bit of research on what (if any) benefits I can get from using Vista's ReadyBoost - seems to be some varying opinions on this with Photoshop, but the HDX16's built in card reader doesn't handle the CF cards that I use in my Canon bodies, so it might be a good home for a fast 4GB SD card as long as the built-in reader is attached to the bus and has a good transfer rate.

I'm expecting to receive my system around Jan 5-6th, so I'll let you know how it works out. If you happen to get one sooner, please do the same. If the HDX16 doesn't meet expectations, then the only other option I know within the current models are the Dell and Sony laptops using the RGB LED backlit LG panels. I'm not too fond of Sony and the Dell using this panel is the Studio 17. Of course with Dell, QC, build quality and consistency is always a concern especially with panels - you never quite know what you're going to get from production run to run. On the other hand, I like the HP's solid build quality so I'm keeping my fingers crossed it works out  

Take care and Happy Holidays!
Richard