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Author Topic: Sinar Exposure 6.1  (Read 7352 times)

avelpavel

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« on: December 12, 2008, 03:21:08 am »

Hi,

anyone knows when the new Exposure 6.1 version will be ready to download? I have seen a 6.1 (beta I think) from the Italian distributor and they tell me it is ready to download from the Sinar website, but it seems not true... I can't find it.

Any news Thierry?

Regards

Roberto


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thsinar

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« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2008, 03:31:58 am »

Roberto,

there is effectively only a beta circulating with some distributors and not a public release. I shall certainly inform as soon as it will be available for download, which should be within a few days.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: avelpavel
Hi,

anyone knows when the new Exposure 6.1 version will be ready to download? I have seen a 6.1 (beta I think) from the Italian distributor and they tell me it is ready to download from the Sinar website, but it seems not true... I can't find it.

Any news Thierry?

Regards

Roberto


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Thierry Hagenauer
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avelpavel

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« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2008, 03:35:59 am »

Thanks Thierry, I hope the new version will have a better highlights recovery method.

I have found that using the Exposure made DNG file in Camera Raw or Aperture can be recovered much more than Exposure can do. (Even though Exposure deals better with moire...)

Best regards

Roberto




Quote from: thsinar
Roberto,

there is effectively only a beta circulating with some distributors and not a public release. I shall certainly inform as soon as it will be available for download, which should be within a few days.

Best regards,
Thierry
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thsinar

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« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2008, 03:45:38 am »

Dear Roberto,

it seems that there is a confusion with what you understand with "Highlight Recovery": if you can recover "so much" with Camera Raw or Aperture or else, than it is ONLY because the DNG files produced by eXposure did already recover/keep the details from the raws available (.IA & .BR files from the eMotion backs). Would this not be done, then NOTHING can be recovered from NOTHING being available.

This being said, eXposure is "only" a capture application and preparation of DNG data for further post-processing: there are not such adjustments possible like in e.g. ACR ("Recovery"; "Fill Light"; "Blacks"; "Clarity"; "Vibrance", etc ...)

I hope this explains.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: avelpavel
Thanks Thierry, I hope the new version will have a better highlights recovery method.

I have found that using the Exposure made DNG file in Camera Raw or Aperture can be recovered much more than Exposure can do. (Even though Exposure deals better with moire...)

Best regards

Roberto
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avelpavel

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« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2008, 03:51:41 am »

Ok, now it makes sense to me.

Thanks Thierry, regards


Roberto

Quote from: thsinar
Dear Roberto,

it seems that there is a confusion with what you understand with "Highlight Recovery": if you can recover "so much" with Camera Raw or Aperture or else, than it is ONLY because the DNG files produced by eXposure did already recover/keep the details from the raws available (.IA & .BR files from the eMotion backs). Would this not be done, then NOTHING can be recovered from NOTHING being available.

This being said, eXposure is "only" a capture application and preparation of DNG data for further post-processing: there are not such adjustments possible like in e.g. ACR ("Recovery"; "Fill Light"; "Blacks"; "Clarity"; "Vibrance", etc ...)

I hope this explains.

Best regards,
Thierry
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bdp

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« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2008, 05:37:42 am »

Hi Thierry,

Although eXposure is primarily capture software as you say, it makes sense that the manufacturer of a particular back should be able to extract the most from the files created by their backs. This certainly seems the case with the Phase backs and Capture One. I also believe that for sake of ease and speeding up workflow it is desirable to use the minimum number of software applications to achieve a file that can be delivered to the client. If we have to use eXposure to capture, then Lightroom for subtle color tweaks, then Photoshop to sharpen and do noise removal (with plugins such as noise ninja) then the whole process becomes tedious and time consuming. So for these reasons, I believe that apart from the essentials of being able to capture without crashing, and flag, name, save and navigate around the images, and alter color temp, saturation, contrast and so on, it would be nice to see some of the more advanced features needed for good post processing. I know you have already indicated the various plug ins planned for eXposure, such as moire removal, noise reduction and so on, but then some cream on the top would be nice, like per channel saturation, recovery slider, creative vignetting, the good old 'color alchemist' that was in Captureshop and whatever other brilliant innovations the Sinar/Jenoptik software engineers can write into the software to make it easier to us photographers to produce great(er) pictures. I'm sure some of these things will come eventually, but I just wanted to register my desire to have these things to raise eXposure from the status of merely a capture program to a more powerful professional tool.

Ben
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thsinar

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« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2008, 05:53:40 am »

hi Ben,

you are absolutely right, resp. I do agree with you. The first priority with version 6.1 was the possibility of shooting un-tethered and being able to produce white shadings and then apply them in a batch, the way it used to be done by the famous "Brumbaer" tool, including a lens vignetting function with different levels of setting it.
This feature together with the best possible highlight recovery and producing the best possible DNG from the raw files, that was a high priority.

All your listed features make sense, IMO, and I believe that most of them are on the list already.

One can now also imagine that the recent introduced Sinarback eSprit 65 with its internal produced DNGs will be the way in the future. In this case, no needs any longer of any capture software to handle the data and when shooting un-tethered.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: bdp
Hi Thierry,

Although eXposure is primarily capture software as you say, it makes sense that the manufacturer of a particular back should be able to extract the most from the files created by their backs. This certainly seems the case with the Phase backs and Capture One. I also believe that for sake of ease and speeding up workflow it is desirable to use the minimum number of software applications to achieve a file that can be delivered to the client. If we have to use eXposure to capture, then Lightroom for subtle color tweaks, then Photoshop to sharpen and do noise removal (with plugins such as noise ninja) then the whole process becomes tedious and time consuming. So for these reasons, I believe that apart from the essentials of being able to capture without crashing, and flag, name, save and navigate around the images, and alter color temp, saturation, contrast and so on, it would be nice to see some of the more advanced features needed for good post processing. I know you have already indicated the various plug ins planned for eXposure, such as moire removal, noise reduction and so on, but then some cream on the top would be nice, like per channel saturation, recovery slider, creative vignetting, the good old 'color alchemist' that was in Captureshop and whatever other brilliant innovations the Sinar/Jenoptik software engineers can write into the software to make it easier to us photographers to produce great(er) pictures. I'm sure some of these things will come eventually, but I just wanted to register my desire to have these things to raise eXposure from the status of merely a capture program to a more powerful professional tool.

Ben
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evgeny

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« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2008, 01:49:26 pm »

Thierry, if I remember, the Exposure will not support 54M and Contax 645. Is that true?
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rethmeier

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« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2008, 04:56:52 pm »

Thierry,
can you explain where the highlight recovery function lives at eXposure?
Regards,
Willem.
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bdp

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« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2008, 05:20:38 pm »

Hi Willem,

I was under the impression that it is automatic when importing off a CF card, like how Brumbaer works. I could be wrong, and it would be better to have some form of control over the amount of recovery in my opinion. I think different versions of the Brumbaer tool had differing levels of highlight recovery. I think we need improvements in the highlight warning on the backs, so we can see if one two or all three channels have no information when we get the blinking red patches. This way we know how far we can go with our exposures out in the field with the knowledge that we can recover some detail when we get back to the studio.

Ben
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rethmeier

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« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2008, 05:31:43 pm »

Thanks Ben,
I'll give you a call if I may next week.
Regards,
Willem.
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Willem Rethmeier
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bdp

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« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2008, 05:54:24 pm »

Sure Willem, no problem. Hopefully 6.1 will be out by then so we can compare notes    

Ben
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Carsten W

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« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2008, 06:57:38 pm »

Quote from: rethmeier
can you explain where the highlight recovery function lives at eXposure?

I am pretty sure that Thierry was saying that there is none in eXposure, which is a capture program, not a full-fledged raw developer, and you should do this in the next step. He also mentioned that there is actually no such thing as "recovery", although they of course call it this. The information is all in the raw file already, and the program just has to go get it and present it in the right way. Thierry, please correct me where I misinterpreted.
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rethmeier

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« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2008, 07:51:03 pm »

Carsten,

that's not what I was meant to believe.

eXposure should have a similar high light recovery procedure as the "Brumbear" one.

However Thierry should clarify this.

Regards,
WR.
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thsinar

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« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2008, 08:30:10 pm »

Dear Evgeny,

Sinar eXposure will support the Sinarback 54M on Contax, but not already in version 6.1.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: evgeny
Thierry, if I remember, the Exposure will not support 54M and Contax 645. Is that true?
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Thierry Hagenauer
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thsinar

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« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2008, 08:40:31 pm »

Concerning "Highlight Recovery":

This process happens DURING the conversion of the eMotion RAWs. The real RAW files of the eMotion backs are made of 2 files: the ".IA" (Image Archive) file and the ".BR" (Black Reference) file. This ".IA" file contains basically and roughly said all the data the sensor has/can capture. Those 2 files are files either in the internal memory or on the CF card, depending where you have chosen to store them, when shooting un-tethered, or are converted into a DNG file while being imported into eXposure from either the internal memory, from the CF card or when shooting tethered.

During this conversion process, a lot of things happen, among them the "highlight recovery": instead of clipping the highlights when they are burnt out or above a certain value, limiting therewith the DR of the whole file, the little data/information left in one or sometimes 2 colour channels are treated and applied to the 2 or one other channel(s) which are/is burnt out and without information. This is possible to do because most often in highlights not all 3 colour channels are burnt out and without details information. There is more than often at least 1 if not 2 channels with a little bit of details/information left. Instead of clipping and destroying this colour information, it is used. The resulting DNG produced has as a result the best possible DR and highlights details. This happens in the "background" and one does not have any control/access to it, and one does not need: the important issue is that the DNG produced has as much as possible information.

The "Brumbaer" tool works exactly the same way: the highlights are recovered during importing and conversion of the ".IA" & ".BR" files and is done automatically and without any possibility to influence it, simply making sure that as much details as possible are available in the produced DNG files.

Here comes now the usual confusion when one speaks about highlight recovery: ACR, CR and other DNG compatible applications "have" a "highlight recovery". In fact they don't. All these applications have is a "slider" allowing to play with the information AVAILABLE from/in the DNG file, taking more or less of the AVAILABLE information/details into the final image. ACR, CR and others CANNOT recover ANYTHING, if this information is not already in the original DNG file one is working on and if it has been clipped on the way and during conversion.

Concerning the over-exposure warning showing blown out highlights: one can usually go "higher" and over expose a bit more when the "warning" starts to show up. How much depends on the (light) situation and I can only recommend to make some tests under you own shooting conditions. I can't give any rule here. Member "rainer_v" has much experience here and might be able to share his experience here.

I hope this helps.

Best regards,
Thierry
« Last Edit: December 12, 2008, 10:20:36 pm by thsinar »
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Murray Fredericks

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« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2008, 10:29:36 pm »

So Thierry,

will that highlight  feature be built into Exposure 6.1?

Also,

Is it the same as the brumbaer highlight recovery 'algorithm' (if that's what it is?), and

Is the colour conversion algorithm/engine improved in 6.1, i.e. is it as good as Brumbaer's?


Cheers

Murray
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thsinar

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« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2008, 10:36:16 pm »

Quote from: Murray Fredericks
So Thierry,

will that highlight  feature be built into Exposure 6.1?
Yes and actually it is already in version 6.01

Quote from: Murray Fredericks
Also,

Is it the same as the brumbaer highlight recovery 'algorithm' (if that's what it is?), and
No, it is not the same algorithm as Brumbaer. Again, rainer_v might here give his feedback since he has worked on it with our team and experienced it to be at least as good, if not better.

Quote from: Murray Fredericks
Is the colour conversion algorithm/engine improved in 6.1, i.e. is it as good as Brumbaer's?

Cheers

Murray
I think so, again after hearing Rainer and the tests he has done with it.

Cheers too,
Thierry
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rethmeier

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« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2008, 02:10:06 am »

Rainer,
we need your input on this matter!
At your earliest convenience of course.
Warm regards,
Willem.
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rainer_v

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« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2008, 03:59:00 am »

hi folks,
not much time this days between shooting.
highlight recovery is determined in the process to make the dngs, as described by thierry.

in fact the exposure makes a very nice highlight recovery during the dng conversion, it recovers a similar amount of highlight than brumbaer tools, but X dont shift colors in the overexposed areas. with brumbaer often happens that strongly blown out zones become cyan or magenta, exposure dont do this. therefor i prefer the exposure recovery now over the brumbaer files.
shadow noise is also a good tick better with exposure, although both programs are very close.

there are new color profiles for the 2.generation backs out ( we75lv with new display ) which work much better than the older ones.
the magenta slider will stay now in ACR at app. +30 in a daylight light situation, not longer at  +120 or so than before.
colors look VERY good now, but i have not idea about skin colors so someone other has to test this, but i couldnt see why they wont be good too.

there is now in 6.1 a white correction batch flow implemented. because i was involved in this ( means i spoke with sinar programmers how i think this should be made and sinar went the way ) i`d like to  say that it works very well and is well thought (  ).

dngs are written fast from the internal raw data, white file conversion takes one minute each file on a 2x2,2 mbp with 4gb ram.
so its slower than brumbaer but again a good step  better.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2008, 04:03:31 am by rainer_v »
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