7900/9900 media presets for NON-EPSON media

[Lorenz]

Hi there,

we received our 9900 just a few days ago. While the machine is a beast we have quite some problems tuning the machine to the appropiate proofing standards (FOGRA 39L)...

Obviously EPSON did excactly what HP did before – they "dongled" the printer to their media :-(.

If you want to use NON-EPSON media you will have to use a "similar" EPSON media to start from. Unfortunately media sets seem to include ink limits which do limit the color gamut. Although the idea behind it (not to ruin the printer by having dripping ofthe paper when runnung 10x100% of ink) is quite smart I really, really need control over the ink limits per channel...

Does anyone have a list (or mor of a matrix) of what's hidden behind the EPSON media names – picoliters, passes, etc...?

HP has just this available for the Z-Series – if you look at the attached PDF (pages 7+8) you will see excactly what I'm looking for...

Bye,

Lorenz

[Ernst Dinkla]

Hi there,

we received our 9900 just a few days ago. While the machine is a beast we have quite some problems tuning the machine to the appropiate proofing standards (FOGRA 39L)...

Obviously EPSON did excactly what HP did before – they "dongled" the printer to their media :-(.

If you want to use NON-EPSON media you will have to use a "similar" EPSON media to start from. Unfortunately media sets seem to include ink limits which do limit the color gamut. Although the idea behind it (not to ruin the printer by having dripping ofthe paper when runnung 10x100% of ink) is quite smart I really, really need control over the ink limits per channel...

Does anyone have a list (or mor of a matrix) of what's hidden behind the EPSON media names – picoliters, passes, etc...?

HP has just this available for the Z-Series – if you look at the attached PDF (pages 7+8) you will see excactly what I'm looking for...

Bye,

Lorenz

Which makes HP's policy on third party papers quite unique. Epson nor Canon did this before and they didn't change their policy after HP made its information available. Not to mention the ink limitation control possible in the utility software when creating custom media presets. I think you need a RIP to get that control (it will give more control) for a 9900. And you need a good one as I understand it + the skills to let it perform.


Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

[William Morse]

Colorburst, which already supports the 9900, apparently does not let you limit the inks- linearization "does not need" to be performed, so they claim. What that really means, unless I misunderstand it, is that 3rd party papers are severely hampered. I hope I'm wrong!

Bill

I think you need a RIP to get that control (it will give more control) for a 9900. And you need a good one as I understand it + the skills to let it perform.


Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

[Lorenz]

Hi Ernst

well – I never understood the way EPSON printer driver work. Therefore I have given up using the when I had the EPSON Stylus (back in 93 *g*)...

We have several RIPs at our hands inclusind Caldera Grand Rip, EFI Colorproof XF, ONYX Productionhouse ode SAi Photo Print Server all of the have their  strengths an weaknesses BUT all of the rely on SDKs (SoftwareDeveloperKits) or other specs from the printer companies. With pretty much all of the modern style beauties it's quite obvious that printer drivers are the key.

For the Z-Series HP openend pandora's box 6 months after realease when they allowed 3rd party developers (aka rip companies) to use HalfTone instead of Contone drivers. With the new EPSONs is just like this – the few rips out there that drive the printer MUST use the contone driver with has link limits dongled to the media that is set by the control panel.

I could do it the hard way – linearize the printer with ONE (physical) media while selecting a different media at the contral panel – therby watching the color gamut. BUT this is really really a waste of time. And paper :-(.

Well – my next stepp is trying to get a hand on the FOGRAcert setup my favorite rip company used when they went thru certification. Last they time they simply sent it to me – let's see if they are just as smart again.

Anyway a list of what's behibg the media presets would be great.

Bye,

Lorenz

[JimGoshorn]

My understanding is that because of the new LUTs in the printer, ink limiting is no longer required. I also think it's possible that once Epson added the orange and green inks, that pretty much made linearization too tricky which leaves us having to re-profile instead.

[Ernst Dinkla]

Hi Ernst


Well – my next stepp is trying to get a hand on the FOGRAcert setup my favorite rip company used when they went thru certification. Last they time they simply sent it to me – let's see if they are just as smart again.

Anyway a list of what's behibg the media presets would be great.

Bye,

Lorenz

Lorenz,

It is ironic that HP Z3100's utility application for the standard driver allows us to (moderately) change overall ink limitation while creating custom media presets (based on existing ones) and provides the (rough) data of the existing media presets while RIPs for the N-color printers like the 7900 and 9900 get more limited on their ink control. It used to be the other way around with drivers and RIPs.

I don't think you will be happy with a RIP + profile creation software that allows all the control possible on the N-color machines. I have a Wasatch SoftRip that supports the Z3100. It doesn't make a good color print with the standard media presets + profile if compared to the Z3100 normal driver. To create the right separation + partitioning of the inks it has many tools but not the right tools in my opinion, there's a lot aboard even to make it an RGB-device for cases like this but in the end it doesn't deliver. But I'm not an experienced N-color profile creator. The Wasatch rep said not to use the RGB-device approach, it wasn't up to date anymore, the custom versions of the profiles they send me after my complaint about the included ones were nothing better. One could take out the RGB hues and let it do the job like a CMmYK(kk) printer but you didn't buy the printer for that. I think in Pre-Press you either have to surrender to the current marketing policies and pay for the service of RIP manufacturers that can deliver the goods (less of them than before) or find your way with the standard driver, little in between. I'm not in pre-press and the switch from Epson to HP's Z3100 driver + software + docs was actually an improvement to get third party media in control.

There are Fogra certificate documents on the web, no idea how detailed they are.


Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

[William Morse]

Unfortunately, I was not wrong. I asked the CB forum what exactly were the advantages of CB over the driver, and they responded "workflow". (Since Qimage gives so much more "workflow" for so much less, it makes you wonder)

I have been considering the 9900, but the apparent difficulty utilizing 3rd party papers is a deal killer for me. We have to guess which Epson paper type is closest to our 3rd party paper, then we use the linearization for the Epson paper! Kind of defeats the purpose of linearization!

Am I making too much of this?  Is there a way to adjust the ink limits in the driver (up or down), that would allow us to modify (tune) the settings and linearization for a 3rd party paper? Has anyone had success doing this?

Bill

Colorburst, which already supports the 9900, apparently does not let you limit the inks- linearization "does not need" to be performed, so they claim. What that really means, unless I misunderstand it, is that 3rd party papers are severely hampered. I hope I'm wrong!

Bill

[Farmer]

Unfortunately, I was not wrong. I asked the CB forum what exactly were the advantages of CB over the driver, and they responded "workflow". (Since Qimage gives so much more "workflow" for so much less, it makes you wonder)

I have been considering the 9900, but the apparent difficulty utilizing 3rd party papers is a deal killer for me. We have to guess which Epson paper type is closest to our 3rd party paper, then we use the linearization for the Epson paper! Kind of defeats the purpose of linearization!

Am I making too much of this?  Is there a way to adjust the ink limits in the driver (up or down), that would allow us to modify (tune) the settings and linearization for a 3rd party paper? Has anyone had success doing this?

Bill

What's stopping you using a RIP of your choice and a spectro of your choice (not the Epson one) and making custom profiles just as you have with previous printers?

I don't want to get into a debate of RIP vs Driver - if your choice is to use a RIP then I think that's fine, but surely it's up to the RIP vendors to supply a RIP tht works with the printer and then you make your profiles same as always, just not with the Epson spectro?  So I can't see any difficulty in using 3rd party media (and even less so if you don't use a RIP - just make your custom profiles as you always have and use the driver - sure there's no ink limiting but for those who don't want a RIP that's not an issue - and that's the majority of people printing photo work anyway).  Again, if your use requires a RIP that's cool - it should be business as usual.

Of course, if you want it all done automatically with the Epson spectro, then yes there's an issue, but it's not that surprising that Epson is not supporting the use of competitor's products.

[William Morse]

Hi Phil-

I'm not sure what your point is here. Yes, I can use a RIP- what I am pointing out is that with at least one RIP, ColorBurst, I don't get much advantage from the RIP, since they are printing through the driver's partitioning and linearization. I am also pointing out that whether with CB or the driver, 3rd party papers are severely hampered by having to use the linearization from the Epson paper types; as I said, it sort of defeats the point of linearization. If there were a capability of adjusting the ink limits (and I am asking if there is such a capability) then I could easily work around this limitation, and I might well buy thte printer and print through the driver, and make my own profiles. Without that ability, however, I doubt I will be a customer.

If there's another RIP that allows linearization through the RIP as opposed to how CB handles it, I will welcome that news.

Bill

What's stopping you using a RIP of your choice and a spectro of your choice (not the Epson one) and making custom profiles just as you have with previous printers?

I don't want to get into a debate of RIP vs Driver - if your choice is to use a RIP then I think that's fine, but surely it's up to the RIP vendors to supply a RIP tht works with the printer and then you make your profiles same as always, just not with the Epson spectro?  So I can't see any difficulty in using 3rd party media (and even less so if you don't use a RIP - just make your custom profiles as you always have and use the driver - sure there's no ink limiting but for those who don't want a RIP that's not an issue - and that's the majority of people printing photo work anyway).  Again, if your use requires a RIP that's cool - it should be business as usual.

Of course, if you want it all done automatically with the Epson spectro, then yes there's an issue, but it's not that surprising that Epson is not supporting the use of competitor's products.

[Farmer]

Hi Phil-

I'm not sure what your point is here. Yes, I can use a RIP- what I am pointing out is that with at least one RIP, ColorBurst, I don't get much advantage from the RIP, since they are printing through the driver's partitioning and linearization. I am also pointing out that whether with CB or the driver, 3rd party papers are severely hampered by having to use the linearization from the Epson paper types; as I said, it sort of defeats the point of linearization. If there were a capability of adjusting the ink limits (and I am asking if there is such a capability) then I could easily work around this limitation, and I might well buy thte printer and print through the driver, and make my own profiles. Without that ability, however, I doubt I will be a customer.

If there's another RIP that allows linearization through the RIP as opposed to how CB handles it, I will welcome that news.

Bill

Hi Bill,

I think I'm not understanding what you're getting at then and sorry for that.  I'll try to explain but if I'm missing the mark just let me know :-)

You don't have to use the Epson spectro.  That is the only spectro that is designed to be use with Epson media only *in the software* that is supplied with it.  You can still enjoy all the benefits of the new inkset and other improvements in the printer.

CB may use the driver, but that doesn't stop you from making a custom profile - just stops you from adjusting ink limits (apparently - I don't use CB - we're using Onyx here and it allows limiting just fine).  You can also linearise by calling your 3rd party media one of the Epson media - most of the manufacturers recommend a comparable Epson paper type to set the driver anyway.  So let's say the paper you have is recommended to use the Luster setting - then just go ahead and treat it as if it were luster and then you have the same functionality as if it were an Epson paper.

So either don't linearise (do you really need it, or would updating your custom profile say every 3 months suit you, given how little these printers drift?), or linearise by assigning your media to Epson equivelants, or use a RIP that does allow ink limiting on the *900 series (such as Onyx) and away you go.

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't see how you're prevented from doing what you want to do, unless you absolutely want to use the Epson spectro and CB and linearise using ink limiting?

[Lorenz]

hi phil,
hi william,

since the posting of the thread some time has passed and we have run several rolls of media thru the printer – the results are stunning :-)

some information – which might bring your viewpoints much much closer that you think...

total ink limit (10x100%=1000% ink load) – that's something EPSON has simply limited! BUT all the HPs oder CANONs have a certain limit built it (like the Z-series cuts off at 46pl per square-whatsoever). in this direction all companies will protect you from having the printer ruin your carpet by dripping gallons of ink while doing a linearization :-)

the ink limits that EPSON has chosen are much, much, much higher than anything that i have found to need for any print out.

phil mentioned that ONYX is able to limit the total amount of ink. oops - not true :-). ONYX does the INK limit AFTER the printer determined limiting. BUT as you have noticed there is still plenty of ink thatcan be saved.

we have used EFI's ColorProof and ONYX ProductionHouse – both will perform wonderful linearizations and save a lot of ink in the total ink limit stages – but the printer itself is already so linear that a icc profile will lead to very very good results as well.

i didn't believe it – but simply tried it. it does work. therefore i can understand Colorburst's approach in simply eliminating these two steps.

o the 3rd party media issue – on friday efi released a very smart guide on howvto use the 7900/9900 with an external rip PLUS 3 party medias...

find it attached :-)

most of the information found in it is just "true" for other RIPs or other 3rd party media...

hope it will help to solve some obstacles...

bye,

lorenz

[William Morse]

Hi Phil-

Thanks for the explanation. This has nothing to do with the onboard spectro. I understand that it is not intended for the photo/art-repro market, and I wouldn't be getting it.

To enjoy all the benefits of the new inkset and other improvements to this printer, I would need to linearize and ink limit on 3rd party papers; that's the problem. I would probably only need to linearize and ink limit once per paper, unless there was variation in the paper batches (much more probable than variations from the printer).

However, if I can't set ink limits, then I am stuck either with a paper that loses density or gamut because of over-inking, or I may have a paper that loses gamut or density because of too little ink. Of course, I can still make a profile, either CMYK through the RIP or RGB through the driver, but I am still limited by the lack of per-paper ink limiting especially.

The problem with CB specifically is that AFAICT the RIP adds nothing that I can't get with the driver and Qimage.

Bill

Hi Bill,

I think I'm not understanding what you're getting at then and sorry for that.  I'll try to explain but if I'm missing the mark just let me know :-)

You don't have to use the Epson spectro.  That is the only spectro that is designed to be use with Epson media only *in the software* that is supplied with it.  You can still enjoy all the benefits of the new inkset and other improvements in the printer.

CB may use the driver, but that doesn't stop you from making a custom profile - just stops you from adjusting ink limits (apparently - I don't use CB - we're using Onyx here and it allows limiting just fine).  You can also linearise by calling your 3rd party media one of the Epson media - most of the manufacturers recommend a comparable Epson paper type to set the driver anyway.  So let's say the paper you have is recommended to use the Luster setting - then just go ahead and treat it as if it were luster and then you have the same functionality as if it were an Epson paper.

So either don't linearise (do you really need it, or would updating your custom profile say every 3 months suit you, given how little these printers drift?), or linearise by assigning your media to Epson equivelants, or use a RIP that does allow ink limiting on the *900 series (such as Onyx) and away you go.

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't see how you're prevented from doing what you want to do, unless you absolutely want to use the Epson spectro and CB and linearise using ink limiting?

[JimGoshorn]

However, if I can't set ink limits, then I am stuck either with a paper that loses density or gamut because of over-inking, or I may have a paper that loses gamut or density because of too little ink. Of course, I can still make a profile, either CMYK through the RIP or RGB through the driver, but I am still limited by the lack of per-paper ink limiting especially.

The problem with CB specifically is that AFAICT the RIP adds nothing that I can't get with the driver and Qimage.

I am sitting here with the same questions. The main issue is ink limits. I am interested in Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Baryta (wish Epson had something comparable - no OBAs and in rolls) so the closest thing to it looks to be Premium Luster 260. Now from the specs, I know that PRB has an ink limit of 280. What is the ink limit for PL 260? If Epson would publish the ink limits for it's papers then it should be no problem. Without them, it makes it harder to find the correct matching paper (please correct me if I misunderstand this).

Jim

[Schewe]

To enjoy all the benefits of the new inkset and other improvements to this printer, I would need to linearize and ink limit on 3rd party papers; that's the problem. I would probably only need to linearize and ink limit once per paper, unless there was variation in the paper batches (much more probable than variations from the printer).

You don't need to linearize the 7900...it's already very linear out of the box. Any decent (read=accurate) profile will take care of this. As far as the ink limits, there is an ability to control Color Density and dry time already. There's also the ability to set up custom media settings right on the printer control panel. If you are not using a rip, the issues you are talking about really don't matter other than finding the optimal media setting for a certain substrate. As far as I know, Epson has never provided any driver settings cross reference. What ink limits that a given media uses is, I suspect, considered proprietary. Since Epson is in the ink/paper business, it doesn't surprise me that their driver is designed for their media ya know?

[William Morse]

Hi Jeff, I was hoping that you or someone else really familiar with the printer would join this discussion.

One the other hand, what you say just doesn't conform with reality, at least as I  experience it. To say that the printer is "linear out of the box" is really quite disengenuous. Linear with what paper? Are you really saying that it is linear with every paper, with every coating? If so, that is quite extraordinary!

But, as I have tried to explain several times in this thread (and perhaps I have hijacked it, and should have started a new one), the real issue (for me, and I suspect for others) is not the linearization per/se, but the ink limiting that MUST precede it. If you can't limit the inks for a particular paper, how can you really achieve a linearization that means anything?

Jeff, I have asked if it is possible to "adjust" the ink limits of a particular paper type. Can you select, say, Epson Exhibition Fiber Paper , and then say, no, I need a little less ink, say, 90%, or I can use a little more ink, say 110%? If not, you are requiring 3rd party paper to conform to the Epson "types" (and who knows which papers conform to whicn Epson papers). Please tell me I can do this, or something like it; otherwise, as I said, the great new Epson printers are a non-starter, for me. Does "Controlling Color Density" do this? Please tell me yes! Because I know for sure that controlling  the dry time has absolutely nothing to do with it. Lasstly, the fact that Epson has never provided "driver settings cross reference" just puts them at the back of the line, as far as this issue is concerned. All other apologies will be discounted, "ya know"?

I'm not trying to slam Epson, I have owned several large format Epson printers, and am genuinely interested in this one. But if I can't optimize 3rd party papers with this printer, and I can with another, then, clearly, the Epson would have to be head and shoulders above the rest to merit my interest.

Bill

You don't need to linearize the 7900...it's already very linear out of the box. Any decent (read=accurate) profile will take care of this. As far as the ink limits, there is an ability to control Color Density and dry time already. There's also the ability to set up custom media settings right on the printer control panel. If you are not using a rip, the issues you are talking about really don't matter other than finding the optimal media setting for a certain substrate. As far as I know, Epson has never provided any driver settings cross reference. What ink limits that a given media uses is, I suspect, considered proprietary. Since Epson is in the ink/paper business, it doesn't surprise me that their driver is designed for their media ya know?

[digitaldog]

One the other hand, what you say just doesn't conform with reality, at least as I  experience it. To say that the printer is "linear out of the box" is really quite disengenuous. Linear with what paper? Are you really saying that it is linear with every paper, with every coating? If so, that is quite extraordinary!

How on earth could the driver be linearized to any and every paper know to man and dog? Epson has no control, let alone knowledge of what some 3rd party paper manufacturer produces. 3rd party paper manufactures SHOULD provide guidance in the instructions, telling users what media setting for the Epson driver they should use. And as Jeff states, you can tweak this to some degree. Optimal output will result using Epson papers using an Epson driver. No one holds a gun to your head to do this (that's why you can place a lot of 3rd party RIPs prior to handing off the data to this printer).

[Schewe]

Jeff, I have asked if it is possible to "adjust" the ink limits of a particular paper type. Can you select, say, Epson Exhibition Fiber Paper , and then say, no, I need a little less ink, say, 90%, or I can use a little more ink, say 110%?

Yes...as I said, in the Advanced Media Control menu you have controls for Color Density, Drying time/pass and paper feed adjustments, paper thickness, paper suction and roll paper tension. No, it's not a 10 channel ink limit per color...that would get in the way of the 10 channel separation. I think you are not correct in your understanding of what a linearization is...I don't know of any printers or rips that give you multi-channel controls over every color. The Colorburst rip that I have (for the 4800) does have a linearization process that has you make an output of cyan, magenta, yellow and black colors...reads that and then allows you to adjust the cyan, magenta, yellow and black ink output...but since the 4800 is an 8 color printer, you DON'T have direct color channel control, you only have controls over the way the Colorburst does the Cc, Mm, Y, Kkk separations.

Really, you are making way too much of this...there are plenty of way to control the output and a good paper profile will take care of any "linearization" issues and considering the 7900 with Colorburst rip is being used for certified proofs, I don't think there's an issue in that industry either.

[Farmer]

Hi Phil-

Thanks for the explanation. This has nothing to do with the onboard spectro. I understand that it is not intended for the photo/art-repro market, and I wouldn't be getting it.

To enjoy all the benefits of the new inkset and other improvements to this printer, I would need to linearize and ink limit on 3rd party papers; that's the problem. I would probably only need to linearize and ink limit once per paper, unless there was variation in the paper batches (much more probable than variations from the printer).

However, if I can't set ink limits, then I am stuck either with a paper that loses density or gamut because of over-inking, or I may have a paper that loses gamut or density because of too little ink. Of course, I can still make a profile, either CMYK through the RIP or RGB through the driver, but I am still limited by the lack of per-paper ink limiting especially.

The problem with CB specifically is that AFAICT the RIP adds nothing that I can't get with the driver and Qimage.

Bill

OK - I'm understand what you're saying more - thanks for that and sorry for being a bit dense earlier and missing it :-)

Generally speaking, using the paper manufacturer's suggested equivelant settings does a fine job, but if you want more control then you can make changes in the driver.  The density control will give you some control over the ink limits (though only broadly, not on a per channel basis).  I'm not sure this is fine enough control for what you're after.

I still don't understand (and by that, I mean I don't understad, not that I'm arguing) why you can't just run a profile made either with your choice of driver settings (either as recommended by the paper manufacturer or otherwise) or obtain a RIP that does allow ink limiting (and building profiles in Onyx certainly does allow you to ink limit on each channel as you see fit - doing it for the GS6000 was fun as too much ink on that can have rather impressive results on the media - and there are no Epson profiles since there is no Epson media for it :-)

What have you done with previous printers in this regard?  Or are you saying you haven't used them because of this?  This "issue" isn't new with the *900 series printers.

[Doombrain]

yes, i also have been having lots of fun profiling the gs6000 with productionhouse 7.

[Ernst Dinkla]

Jeff, I have asked if it is possible to "adjust" the ink limits of a particular paper type. Can you select, say, Epson Exhibition Fiber Paper , and then say, no, I need a little less ink, say, 90%, or I can use a little more ink, say 110%? If not, you are requiring 3rd party paper to conform to the Epson "types" (and who knows which papers conform to whicn Epson papers). Please tell me I can do this, or something like it; otherwise, as I said, the great new Epson printers are a non-starter, for me. Does "Controlling Color Density" do this? Please tell me yes! Because I know for sure that controlling  the dry time has absolutely nothing to do with it. Lasstly, the fact that Epson has never provided "driver settings cross reference" just puts them at the back of the line, as far as this issue is concerned. All other apologies will be discounted, "ya know"?

Bill

In the past Density adjustments in the Epson driver have been Gamma settings and not a (general) ink limitation that shifts the inkload higher or lower percentage wise over the total range of 0-100 ink squirted. So building on top of the internal linearisation and by that not different to a Photoshop gamma change. If that has changed from a Gamma feature in the 7900/9900 drivers it would be new but I can not see it act as a RIPlike general ink limitation if there's no linearisation possible. On third party papers this would be a highly unpredictable feature without a custom linearisation.

If general ink limitation is allowed like in the creation of custom media presets on the HP Z models then a linearisation is needed which the Z models do right after creation of a custom media preset. On that linearisation a new custom profile can be made. Like with RIP's including the Quadtone RIP you better check what the paper can handle on bleeding etc and where the Dmax is reached but in my experience the Z separation method keeps the inkload in all mixes more equal and the black highest density patches of the calibration target tell enough whether to limit ink (100>80%) or to switch to a higher inkload media preset where the HP documents come to the rescue. So a general ink limitation can be sufficient. The Z model drivers have the Density (Gamma) feature too in the Advanced Color Adjustment part of the Color and B&W menu.


Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/