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Author Topic: Bob Atkin's 50D review  (Read 3434 times)

DarkPenguin

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Bob Atkin's 50D review
« on: November 20, 2008, 12:07:53 pm »

Bob writes reviews that are easier to grok than 30 pages of dpreview charts.

http://www.bobatkins.com/photography/digit...D_review_1.html
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Ralph Wagner

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Bob Atkin's 50D review
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2008, 12:33:47 pm »

His review is similar to other reviewers. A little more noise than the 40D, but more detail. My concern is that I have seen in some reviews that indicate that the highest aperture on a 50D before diffraction starts affecting sharpness is around f/7.5. On the 40D this is around f/9.5. Since I use f/8 - f/11 quite often this does concern me. Lens choices probably affect this also, but maybe we are at a ceiling as far as pixel numbers are concerned. Also, getting back to the noise issue, I read in couple places that if you down res the 50D images to 40D's resolution then the noise is about equal. ???  Doesn't make sense to me. Seems that this would cancel any crop advantages for the 50D. Might as well just keep the 40D, which I am going to do.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2008, 12:34:42 pm by Ralph Wagner »
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Daniel Browning

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Bob Atkin's 50D review
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2008, 02:20:49 pm »

Quote from: Ralph Wagner
My concern is that I have seen in some reviews that indicate that the highest aperture on a 50D before diffraction starts affecting sharpness is around f/7.5. On the 40D this is around f/9.5. Since I use f/8 - f/11 quite often this does concern me.

The only possible effect that diffraction can have with higher megapixels is that you get diminishing returns. That is, normally you'd expect a 22% resolution improvement going from the 40D to 50D if the OLPF was at the same ratio, but at some apertures (e.g. f/22) the improvement will be less, probably only around 5%.

At f/11 the improvement is still relatively high, more than half of what is possible when diffraction does not apply (~15+% out of 22%).

Quote
Lens choices probably affect this also, but maybe we are at a ceiling as far as pixel numbers are concerned.

We're getting closer. Everyone used to say 6 was the right amount, but I disagree. 10 ought to be enough for anybody.

I'm talking Gigapixels, of course. I can't wait to leave Megapixels behind.

Quote
Also, getting back to the noise issue, I read in couple places that if you down res the 50D images to 40D's resolution then the noise is about equal.

Correct. The raw conversion has a big impact as well. If you look at the raw data before conversion, though, the 50D has less total noise (RMS) and more total light (QE). The read noise has more pattern and speckling though.
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DarkPenguin

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Bob Atkin's 50D review
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2008, 02:44:53 pm »

Quote from: Ralph Wagner
His review is similar to other reviewers. A little more noise than the 40D, but more detail. My concern is that I have seen in some reviews that indicate that the highest aperture on a 50D before diffraction starts affecting sharpness is around f/7.5. On the 40D this is around f/9.5. Since I use f/8 - f/11 quite often this does concern me. Lens choices probably affect this also, but maybe we are at a ceiling as far as pixel numbers are concerned. Also, getting back to the noise issue, I read in couple places that if you down res the 50D images to 40D's resolution then the noise is about equal. ???  Doesn't make sense to me. Seems that this would cancel any crop advantages for the 50D. Might as well just keep the 40D, which I am going to do.

I think this is largely covered in the review.
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ErikKaffehr

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Bob Atkin's 50D review
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2008, 03:57:20 pm »

Hi,

You get it wrong. Diffraction does not set in earlier or later depending on sensor size or pixel size. It is a limitation on resolution by physics. Diffraction may cause that you cannot utilize the full resolution of the sensor but a 15 MPixel sensor will always bet at least as sharp as a 10 MPixel sensor in absolute terms. An A2 print from a 15 MPixel camera will be at least as sharp as an A2 print from a 10 MPixel camera having the same sensor size and lens.

To fully utilize the resolution of the 15 MPixel sensor you may need to have a very good lens, and use it at optimum aperture. Stopping down beyond optimum aperture will always reduce sharpness, but that effect may be less visible on a low resolution sensor, simply because you cannot see what you have lost.

Erik



Quote from: Ralph Wagner
His review is similar to other reviewers. A little more noise than the 40D, but more detail. My concern is that I have seen in some reviews that indicate that the highest aperture on a 50D before diffraction starts affecting sharpness is around f/7.5. On the 40D this is around f/9.5. Since I use f/8 - f/11 quite often this does concern me. Lens choices probably affect this also, but maybe we are at a ceiling as far as pixel numbers are concerned. Also, getting back to the noise issue, I read in couple places that if you down res the 50D images to 40D's resolution then the noise is about equal. ???  Doesn't make sense to me. Seems that this would cancel any crop advantages for the 50D. Might as well just keep the 40D, which I am going to do.
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Erik Kaffehr
 

Ray

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Bob Atkin's 50D review
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2008, 06:44:56 pm »

I don't know why there should be so much confusion about this issue. Whatever the performance of your lens, whether it's limited by various aberrations at wide apertures, or limited mostly by diffraction at small apertures, in order to capture precisely and perfectly the full detail and resolution of the image which has passed through the lens, you would need a perfect sensor.

Such a sensor would have no AA filter, zero noise, and pixels no bigger than the wavelength of light.

The question one should be asking is, 'How significant is that increase in resolution, at any given aperture, which the sensor with the higher pixel count usually offers?"

Clearly, the sharper the lens, the more significant such differences will be. The sharpest Canon glass costs a lot more than a 50D body. For most users with even good quality zoom lenses, the resolution differences between the 40D and 50D will be irrelevant, just as the resolution differences between the 40D and 20D are irrelevant, although they exist.

The reasons I bought a 50D were because of its micro-autofocus adjustment, its higher resolution LCD screen and because I anticipated a price rise as a result of the falling Aussie dollar.
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BJL

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Bob Atkin's 50D review
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2008, 02:51:49 pm »

Quote from: Ralph Wagner
I read in couple places that if you down res the 50D images to 40D's resolution then the noise is about equal. ???  Doesn't make sense to me. Seems that this would cancel any crop advantages for the 50D. Might as well just keep the 40D, which I am going to do.
If downsampling from a higher resolution sensor [say that of the 50D] can indeed match the resolution and noise level combination of a lower resolution sensor alternative [say the 40D], then the higher resolution options is clearly superior overall:
A. in some situations like at sufficiently low ISO speed, the noise levels of the higher resolution option are completely acceptable, so no downsampling is needed and you get more resolution than with the lower resolution sensor.
B. in other situations, the option of downsampling means that you are never worse off than with the lower resolution sensor.
So the higher resolution sensor sometimes wins, sometimes draws, and never loses. Such downsampling/NR options are a lot like being able to switch between a higher resolution lower ISO film/sensor and a lower resolution higher ISO film/sensor according to the situation.

And with the 50D, case A probably applies quite often.

But this is all based on the truth of the claim you report that noise is equal after downsampling to equal resolution. What surprises me about the DPReview 50D review is that the DR seems to be a bit less than with the Olympus E-3, despite the 50D having a sensor design more than a year newer with about equal pixel size. Maybe this is due to different tone curves in the default JPEG output used in those DR tests.


By the way, it is similar with diffraction effects: the changes to a higher resolution sensor will always give at least a bit more resolution at equal aperture, and certainly never less. Just maybe not as much of a gain in overall resolution as the gain in sensor resolution.


I do not feel much need for 15MP final cropped images, but like the idea of cropping latitude for wild-life photography, to get a well-composed 8 or 10 MP crop image of an unpredictably moving subject.
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Ray

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Bob Atkin's 50D review
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2008, 07:39:12 pm »

Quote
If downsampling from a higher resolution sensor [say that of the 50D] can indeed match the resolution and noise level combination of a lower resolution sensor alternative [say the 40D], then the higher resolution options is clearly superior overall:
A. in some situations like at sufficiently low ISO speed, the noise levels of the higher resolution option are completely acceptable, so no downsampling is needed and you get more resolution than with the lower resolution sensor.
B. in other situations, the option of downsampling means that you are never worse off than with the lower resolution sensor.
So the higher resolution sensor sometimes wins, sometimes draws, and never loses. Such downsampling/NR options are a lot like being able to switch between a higher resolution lower ISO film/sensor and a lower resolution higher ISO film/sensor according to the situation.

BJL,
There's an excellent explanation of this process on the new DXOMark website under the 'Insights' heading. The DXO team have mapped the S/N of 30 DSLR models produced since 2003. Surprisingly, S/N is getting worse. There's a downward trend as pixels get smaller. However, when images are normalised to a specified size, an opposite trend can be seen. Signal-to-noise with respect to the entire image is steadily increasing.

Quote
I do not feel much need for 15MP final cropped images, but like the idea of cropping latitude for wild-life photography, to get a well-composed 8 or 10 MP crop image of an unpredictably moving subject.

Perhaps you would change your mind if you had a 50" (or bigger) plasma display  .

We seem to be obsessed with resolution matters in photography because people have a habit of approaching as close as possible to a print and peering at the detail. If the detail is lacking on close inspection, then in some way the photo seems to fail a reality test. We are perhaps disappointed in some way. In the real world, the closer you look at an object, the more detail you see.
 
My own tests have shown that, using a cheap standard lens at apertures from F4 to F16, the 50D will always produce more detail than the 40D, provided the detail exists in the target and provided one is prepared to enlarge the image sufficiently for that extra detail to be revealed. The problem is, unless one is in the habit of making 4ftx6ft prints and larger, such additional detail is often too insignificant to be relevant. Also, if one were in the habit of making 4ftx6ft prints, one would probably want to use a 50mp DB to make such increased resolution and detail worthwhile.

The HD plasma screen comes to the rescue. My 50" plasma display is as high as my large format Epson 7600 is wide. I cannot make a larger print, in the 16:9 aspect ratio, than this plasma screen can display. Despite the resolution of the plasma display being only 1920x1080, from a comfortable viewing distance of anywhere from 8ft to 12ft, I see as much detail as I see on a print of the same size from the same distance.

Of course, if I approach the print up close, I can marvel at the texture of the moss on the rocks. If I get close to the plasma screen, I begin to see the pixel structure of the plasma display rather than the texture of the moss. The question might be, is there any detail in the image that the viewer would find so interesting that he/she would want to clamber over obstacles to get a closer look? If there is, then one can make a crop of such detail and display it at full resolution as the next image in the slide show. No need to stub your toe against a piece of furniture to get a closer look.

As a matter of interest, the detail you would see in a 100% crop of a 50D image on a 50" HD plasma display (ie., no downsampling and no interpolation - the full resolution), is the same as you would see viewing a 6ftx9ft print of the full image from the same distance.
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BJL

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Bob Atkin's 50D review
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2008, 11:33:45 am »

Firstly a followup: Bob Atkins says at http://www.bobatkins.com/photography/digit...D_review_1.html (backed up with images) that
"With some noise reduction applied, the 50D can show less noise then the 40D, but still maintain an edge in resolution  ... You can see that resolution is still slightly better than that of the 40D and the noise level is lower."
If that is true, it is a clear low light/high ISO IQ win for the 50D over the 40D, if only by a small margin.

Secondly, to Ray's comment that
Quote from: Ray
Perhaps you would change your mind if you had a 50" (or bigger) plasma display ... Despite the resolution of the plasma display being only 1920x1080, from a comfortable viewing distance of anywhere from 8ft to 12ft, I see as much detail as I see on a print of the same size from the same distance.
My experiences are similar, though with a 23" LCD of 1920x1200. I have little aesthetic interest in viewing an image on this screen, or a 50" screen, or any print of mine, from less than about the screen or image width, and so my eyes set a resolution limit for which 10MP is more than adequate. It has struck me that a 23" screen is quite close to a 13"x19" print in size and shape, and the good quality I see on the 23" screen from my preferred viewing distance of a bit over 20" makes me think that for many purposes, IQ would be quite good with a 13"x19" print made from 1920x1200 full three color pixels, or about 3MP. The resolution loss in Bayer interpolation should l be offset by a 2x or 3x increase in pixel count, so I am still fairly sure than images from al recent DLSR sensors, all being 10MP or more would have quite satisfactory resolution on 13"x19" prints when viewed the way that I view prints for aesthetic purposes (no "ink sniffing") as opposed to when I am curious about lens and sensor performance. Though honestly, I do not print that large anyway.

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Ray

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Bob Atkin's 50D review
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2008, 07:12:30 pm »


Quote
Firstly a followup: Bob Atkins says at http://www.bobatkins.com/photography/digit...D_review_1.html (backed up with images) that
"With some noise reduction applied, the 50D can show less noise then the 40D, but still maintain an edge in resolution  ... You can see that resolution is still slightly better than that of the 40D and the noise level is lower."
If that is true, it is a clear low light/high ISO IQ win for the 50D over the 40D, if only by a small margin.

BJL,
That's pretty much as I would have expected. Whether it's noise or resolution that's being considered, any improvement, however slight, is better than none. I consider such marginal improvements a bit analagous to processing images in 16 bit as opposed to 8 bit. Most of the time working in 16 bit may not produce a noticeable difference, but occasionally it does. I'd rather have more pixels than necessary most of the time than risk having fewer pixels than necessary occasionally.

Quote
My experiences are similar, though with a 23" LCD of 1920x1200. I have little aesthetic interest in viewing an image on this screen, or a 50" screen, or any print of mine, from less than about the screen or image width, and so my eyes set a resolution limit for which 10MP is more than adequate.

I like to be able to appreciate photos hung on the wall from an average distance I might find myself when in the room; not necessarily from the extreme opposite end of the room, but around the middle of the room. However, I have a shortage of wall space, which is why I'm intrigued by the potential of this new 50" plasma display as a substitute for hanging large prints on the wall. No need to connect the display to a computer. It has its own SD card slot. The average image that fills the screen is around 2MB after jpeg compression (maybe a bit more). A 16GB SDHC card could theoretically hold up to 8,000 images.

Having checked out the power consumption before buying this set, it seems it's a fairly energy efficient device. Using an electricity price of US 10 cents/kwh, it's supposed to cost only $50/year to run this set 8 hours a day every day of the year, provided the set's  switched off when not in use. The manufacturer boasts a 100,000 hours' life span before brightness is reduced by half. If my maths is correct, that works out at 34 years' viewing of 8 hours per day   .
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