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Author Topic: Sinar P - some questions  (Read 22752 times)

thsinar

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Sinar P - some questions
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2008, 11:49:26 am »

yes, that is exactly the point and where the p models make it so easy, fast and precise.

Having to re-focus each time, then re-tilt (or re-swing) is not very efficient and kind of guess-working, without methodical approach. And definitively not as precise.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: Dustbak
it also sounds like it solves a problem that I had with the few times I used movements, eg. having 1 point sharp, tilting, losing the sharpness and having to start all over again. This I found very frustrating and made it difficult to get to desired results with consistency.
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kendal

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Sinar P - some questions
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2008, 12:40:15 pm »

so if I understand this right - with a sinar p & DSLR combination I get better precission but will still be limited in movements because of the mirror box and will have the lens crop factor.

- how "bad" is the live view of the Sinar 54LV compared to the nikon D3?
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thsinar

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Sinar P - some questions
« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2008, 12:44:28 pm »

Dear Kendal,

Right, concerning plane of sharpness settings and focusing.

I am not sure about the mirror box issue, but yes, the crop factor is an issue to consider/live with.

I don't know the live view on a Nikon D3, but the one on the eMotion 54 LV works fine, as long as you don't have too much light (saturation of the sensor).

Best reggrads,
Thierry

Quote from: kendal
so if I understand this right - with a sinar p & DSLR combination I get better precission but will still be limited in movements because of the mirror box and will have the lens crop factor.

- how "bad" is the live view of the Sinar 54LV compared to the nikon D3?
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Morgan_Moore

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Sinar P - some questions
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2008, 12:50:21 pm »

Quote from: Rick_Allen
You can use the camera's rear movements for stitching.

@morgan have you tested the P3 with a sliding adapter? or the P2 with the Cambo sliding for sinar? I'm looking at getting something soon and cant really test anything before buying.

I have a P2 (from the 70s ?) with a linhof sliding adapter and a phase H1 mount on my sinar/H1 54LV

I have not tried a p3 because they are way more expensive (being newer)

I would imagine that the P3 is too small to use the sliding adapter for stitching

to me the beauty of a 54 camera is I can make my 22mp back into 44mp for still life and have a 12.9 'look'

----------

How bad is the live view ?

Well it is tethered only for a start - so no use on location without an uber crew I cant afford

With copal lenses - rubbish workflow stopping up and down etc- updates in black and white about once a week tethered to my mac

Actually the zoom facility is really good but the experience is NOTHING like the nikon live view

It may be partly my mac which is not 'blinged to the max' that causes the slow view

To be honest I havent really played with it as I found just taking a shot and adjusting faster (that was actually with the H1 tethered not the sinar)

S
« Last Edit: November 19, 2008, 12:51:44 pm by Morgan_Moore »
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kendal

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Sinar P - some questions
« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2008, 01:30:07 pm »

Quote from: Morgan_Moore
How bad is the live view ?

Well it is tethered only for a start - so no use on location without an uber crew I cant afford

With copal lenses - rubbish workflow stopping up and down etc- updates in black and white about once a week tethered to my mac

Actually the zoom facility is really good but the experience is NOTHING like the nikon live view

It may be partly my mac which is not 'blinged to the max' that causes the slow view

To be honest I havent really played with it as I found just taking a shot and adjusting faster (that was actually with the H1 tethered not the sinar)

S

mhhhh .... sounds not very good
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doublezero

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Sinar P - some questions
« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2008, 02:42:43 pm »

Quote from: kendal
mhhhh .... sounds not very good

hello ,

thsinar  wrote :


"there is no other camera than the p/p2/p3 having asymmetrical axis allowing for a 2-point Scheimpflug setting"

What  about the next camera  :  
 - arca with orbix mechanism
  - cambo master pc
  - cambo ultima 4x5 ,

do they have the same asymmetrical axis ?

i think so

regards
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Rick_Allen

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Sinar P - some questions
« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2008, 03:35:14 pm »

With the P3 can you attach standard copal digital lenses on a flat and or recessed board?
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PdF

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Sinar P - some questions
« Reply #27 on: November 19, 2008, 04:22:14 pm »

Quote from: doublezero
hello ,

thsinar  wrote :


"there is no other camera than the p/p2/p3 having asymmetrical axis allowing for a 2-point Scheimpflug setting"

What  about the next camera  :  
 - arca with orbix mechanism
  - cambo master pc
  - cambo ultima 4x5 ,

do they have the same asymmetrical axis ?

i think so

regards
Don't forget the Linhof 679 (who is'nt worst !)

PdF
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klane

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Sinar P - some questions
« Reply #28 on: November 19, 2008, 07:45:34 pm »

the ultima 45d and 23d work this way. I can set a focus point and tilt on axis.

The ultimas and the sinar p's are the best view cameras out there. I have not had a chance to use the linof but id say it ranks up there for sure.
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thsinar

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Sinar P - some questions
« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2008, 10:37:30 pm »

Quote from: doublezero
hello ,


What  about the next camera  :  
 - arca with orbix mechanism
  - cambo master pc
  - cambo ultima 4x5 ,

do they have the same asymmetrical axis ?

i think so

regards
Not at all the same as the asymmetrical axis on the p serie cameras. The p cameras have the axis (both, H AND V) built this way and they remain asymmetrical in any case.

- the orbix allows for the axis to be centered, so far I know.

- Cambo Master PC: the H axis can be set asymmetrically by shifting the image plane (like some other cameras), but how complicated this is, and so many steps more for setting the plane and then re-framing at the end of the tilting process and loosing the sharpness again (re-focus necessary). As for the V axis: it remains centered.
It takes 2 steps with a p/p2/p3 without having to change anything.

- Cambo Ultima 4x5: same as above, the axis are not built asymmetrical. You can adjust the rotational axis of the rear standard to be aligned with the chip/film plane.

All in all, more steps to come to a result which is achieved by only 2 single movements on the p/p2 and P3 cameras: focus, then tilt (or swing), ultimately calculate your depth-of-field.

I cannot imagine how it could be easier and faster.

Best regards,
Thierry

-
« Last Edit: November 19, 2008, 11:00:51 pm by thsinar »
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Thierry Hagenauer
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Rick_Allen

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« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2008, 10:48:02 pm »

@ Thierry Can you tell me if the P3 can take standard lens panels so copal shutter lenses can be used
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Rick Allen
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thsinar

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Sinar P - some questions
« Reply #31 on: November 19, 2008, 10:54:10 pm »

Dear Rick,

The Sinar p3 uses 100mm lens plates and we have the so-called CPL lenses to fit it (with Copal shutter).

Otherwise, almost all Copal lenses can be mounted on a 100mm p3 plate.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: Rick_Allen
@ Thierry Can you tell me if the P3 can take standard lens panels so copal shutter lenses can be used
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klane

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« Reply #32 on: November 19, 2008, 11:01:02 pm »

Thierry, The movable chip-plane adjustment is set to correct for horizontal and vertical. Maybe Im misunderstanding how this differs from the sinar p's.
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thsinar

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Sinar P - some questions
« Reply #33 on: November 19, 2008, 11:06:11 pm »

Yes, I understand this, but the axis are (mechanically) not built asymmetrical.

I would have to show you physically, on the camera, to explain the differences on the p cameras.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: klane
Thierry, The movable chip-plane adjustment is set to correct for horizontal and vertical. Maybe Im misunderstanding how this differs from the sinar p's.
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Zachary Goulko

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Sinar P - some questions
« Reply #34 on: November 20, 2008, 04:24:47 pm »

Quote from: E_Edwards
Quick snappshot of the Sinar-X, which is basically identical to the P2, but the geared movements don't click when you reach the "0" position.

In the front is the bellows and front standard from the F series. At the back is the Linhof sliding adaptor and an Aptus 65 with cables connecting to a Rollei shutter and Rollei ControlS. And in the background you can just see the NEC 30" Spectraview, a gem of a monitor.
Notice that I use the Sinar turned 90 degrees.  This is something that doesn't occur to many people, and depends on what you are shooting, it's very convenient. The camera is fitted to a geared studio stand.


Edward

Edward,

I am also shooting with the Sinar X and Aptus 75 combo.

Just curious, what is the advantage of having your camera on its side?
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E_Edwards

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« Reply #35 on: November 20, 2008, 05:57:03 pm »

Quote from: zachary_goulko
Edward,

I am also shooting with the Sinar X and Aptus 75 combo.

Just curious, what is the advantage of having your camera on its side?


Space
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Dave McRitchie - Bron Imaging Group

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Sinar P - some questions
« Reply #36 on: November 24, 2008, 09:53:47 am »

I wanted to add to this thread about the differences between the cameras p, p2, p3, X

The Sinar p is silver with black except for a very limited edition wich were made all black for the 30th anniversary of the company. ( I think they made 300).   The p2 is all black and the X is the same, but has a red thumb wheel on the front and rear standard for the horizontal displacements.

As for the differences;

The p has hard plastic knobs for making your geared swings and tilts, using the same knob for swing and tilt with a separate lever to switch between the two.  On the p2 the knobs were replaced by rubberised grip knobs and the swing and tilt movements have a separate knob for each.  Also the p2 shipped with a metering ground glass and the new Rail Clamp 2 which encloses the base rail completely.  The Sinar X camera is different from the p2 in the following ways;  the two main differences are the detents on the p2 at zero position are not on the X and also there are less gears in the horizontal displacement.  What this means (and why the thumb wheel is red) is that when you want to make a horizontal displacement you need tomove the thumb wheel the opposite direction - on the p, p2 and p3 you want to go left - you turn the thumb wheel left.  The p3 is a smaller version of the p2 with silver accents on the knobs.  The frames are smaller size and have been optimized to be "centered".  The p, p2 and X can be upgraded to a p3 due to the modular design of the Sinar system.

Hope this helps!

Dave.
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Mark_Tuttle

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Sinar P - some questions
« Reply #37 on: November 24, 2008, 10:53:33 am »

I was under the impression from something that Thierry posted in the past that the actual gearing of a a P3 was no different than the gearing of a P2.  

Am I mistaken?

Quote from: Dave McRitchie - SBI
I wanted to add to this thread about the differences between the cameras p, p2, p3, X

The Sinar p is silver with black except for a very limited edition wich were made all black for the 30th anniversary of the company. ( I think they made 300).   The p2 is all black and the X is the same, but has a red thumb wheel on the front and rear standard for the horizontal displacements.

As for the differences;

The p has hard plastic knobs for making your geared swings and tilts, using the same knob for swing and tilt with a separate lever to switch between the two.  On the p2 the knobs were replaced by rubberised grip knobs and the swing and tilt movements have a separate knob for each.  Also the p2 shipped with a metering ground glass and the new Rail Clamp 2 which encloses the base rail completely.  The Sinar X camera is different from the p2 in the following ways;  the two main differences are the detents on the p2 at zero position are not on the X and also there are less gears in the horizontal displacement.  What this means (and why the thumb wheel is red) is that when you want to make a horizontal displacement you need tomove the thumb wheel the opposite direction - on the p, p2 and p3 you want to go left - you turn the thumb wheel left.  The p3 is a smaller version of the p2 with silver accents on the knobs.  The frames are smaller size and have been optimized to be "centered".  The p, p2 and X can be upgraded to a p3 due to the modular design of the Sinar system.

Hope this helps!

Dave.
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Mark Tuttle
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Sinar P - some questions
« Reply #38 on: November 24, 2008, 11:01:57 am »

Quote from: Mark_Tuttle
I was under the impression from something that Thierry posted in the past that the actual gearing of a a P3 was no different than the gearing of a P2.  

Am I mistaken?

Mark,

No you are not mistaken.  The gearing is the same in the p2 and p3.  The difference is in where the center lines up in relation to the geared "bearer".  With the p2, you need to make a small horizontal and vertical shift to center the digital chip in the same position.  This does not really effect anything however as the p3 and Sinar Sliding Adapter 100 positions the imaging plane in the swing and tilt axis and so it remains on that axis no matter where it is positioned..  
Like Thierry posted before, it is much easier to see this visually than try to describe it!

Dave.
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