RED Changes the Game – Again

[Paul Sumi]

Michael,

I found your article very compelling although at the prices quoted, I agree the game changing (at least in the beginning) will be on the professional level, not on the amateur field most of us play on.  At this point, the cost for equivalent (still photography) capability versus traditional DSLRs is much too high for many of us.  I share your hope that it scares the heck out of Canon, Nikon, Sony, etc, and makes them more responsive to us consumers.

Just to be clear, your speculation about the under $4000 complete 2/3" Scarlett is for the body with built-in lens, not with interchangeble len capability?

Best,

Paul

[vandevanterSH]

Seeing all of those "bits and pieces" reminds me of all of the "V" system "bits" that I have laying around.  The more things change,  etc.....

Steve

[Craig Arnold]

Well I'm sure they are technological marvels, but I don't see them competing on price with something like the 5D2 for those of use who are primarily stills photographers.

Pretty cool, but not quite playing the same game at the moment unless you have very deep pockets.

[Mort54]

The geek in me is fascinated by the RED DMSC, but other than that, I still don't see what all the fuss is about. It's more expensive than the competition at every MP point, and much larger and heavier than the competition. Yes, it has movie mode, but by the time they finally deliver the DMSC, all the current big DSLR players will also have pro bodies with video. Maybe not video as good as provided by the RED camera, but certainly good enough for all but the highest end video producer. Really, how many stills photographers need better video than what they can get with the 5DII, or with what's coming in the near future.

Bottom line, the DMSC seems overpriced and overhyped. A niche product.

[jjj]

Really, how many stills photographers need better video than what they can get with the 5DII

How many photographers want RAW when JPEGs are available? The footage from the Canon and Nikons are simply moving versions of JPEGs and if you are used to RAW, going back to an inferior workflow will be a serious problem for many.

[barryfitzgerald]

Ok so you have to spend $12,000 to get the FF 24mp model..

Let me know when it's in the same ball park as a 5d II ;-)

[Paul Sumi]

I love RED's disclaimer:

"Specifications and delivery dates subject to drastic changes"

While I admire their candor, it doesn't necessarily inspire great confidence. But we'll know soon enough what sees the light of day and what is vaporware.

However, even if I never buy a Scarlet Motion/Still camera, I hope that RED scares the bejezus out of Canon, Nikon, Sony, et al. This can only help accelerate the pace of innovation which will benefit us all.

Paul

[Paul Sumi]

Seeing all of those "bits and pieces" reminds me of all of the "V" system "bits" that I have laying around.  The more things change,  etc.....

Steve

On a slightly irreverant note, the photo of the Scarlet in Michael's article reminds me of the movie, Transformers.  I keep waiting for it to morph into a killer robot  

Paul

[Pete Ferling]

In lieu of the lean times for the competition, this is the last thing Canon, Nikon, and Sony need to see coming down the road.  The business side of me says it's neat, but I need to keep shooting with my Mamiya, 1Ds, and 40D.  The I want it side of me says that I must have one cause it's just way too cool.  Show up at the local event with one of those beasts and you won't have to coax folks into smiling for the camera.  The envy of all.

Maybe that's why I pickup up a used Canon FTBn, that relic gets more attention now then I remember when they were new.  Folks visiting the studio see it on the table next to my Digitals and they always pick it up and admire it's solid build.  My point is that RED cameras, despite the amazing tech inside, are works of art in their own right for a reason.

Some of you may or may not know it, but when Jim first worked on the RED video camera, he created such a ground swell that he was able to sell his first run of a cameras before they were even produced.  Many shooters willingly handed him $1000 (towards the cost of purchase) to reserve a spot in line for the first units, and he delivered.  The competition could only be envious of the kind of following.

So when Michael says Red will change the market, he's right.

[wolfnowl]

Seeing all of those "bits and pieces" reminds me of all of the "V" system "bits" that I have laying around.  The more things change,  etc.....

That's exactly what I was thinking.  Interchangeable lenses, bodies, backs, batteries, etc... everything fits together... kind of like a 21st century Hasselblad V camera system.  I wonder if Hasselblad is listening?

Mike.

[barryfitzgerald]

Might have some interest to MF shooters, but for everyone else, this is going to have 0 impact on Canon and Nikon. Plus, it's not very nice looking is it??
EVF only...hmmmm.

Maybe in 5 years red will be a challenge to the industry. I fail to see what is so gripping about it.

[michael]

Barry,

Maybe because the type of photography that you do is not the type that's the target market for this system.

For those that want and need to shoot very high end (commercial movie) quality video as well as commercial stills, for those that need to shoot very high frame-rate hi-res stills in raw, and all the other things that Scarlet and Epic can do, this is a dream system. Sports and wildlife photographers, as but one example, are panting at the thought of 30 FPS raw and dual usability for stock stills as well as video.

As for its looks, well, all I can say is that this is not an amateur tool. It's a pro tool where form follows function. Cosmetics are secondary to functionality. What's the matter? Didn't you play with Transformers when you were a kid, or when your kids had them?

Michael

[David Anderson]

Red cameras have started popping up at some of the music videos I do stills on, seems with the lower budgets that they have at record companies these days that digital is taking over from film on price as much as everything else.

The DOP's I've asked about the Reds seem to love working with them as well, all of them have a dig that soon they wont need me..  

Being one of the people that thought phones in cameras would never take off I try to keep any doubts I have about video and still cameras merging at bay..

[barryfitzgerald]

I was under the impression that this Red, would challenge the high end Canon or Nikon's. I was obviously wrong on that one. I based that on the huge buzz about the 5d Mk II. I didn't expect a budget DSLR from them! Obviously ;-)

True, it's not aimed at me, but then it's not aimed at 98% of the rest of the photography market either. So it's appeal will be very limited to specialist shooters, not your average working photographer. Hence, I would suggest, for most, it's a bit of a let down really.

[billh]

I think these things will revolutionize news photography, and probably wedding photography. Sports photographers are also an obvious target. Video seems to be playing a larger role these days, and this system appears to provide the best of both worlds. 4.9 MP at 120 fps or 13.8 MP at 30 fps would seem (as Michael so eloquently put it) a photographers wet dream. Last fall I switched from Canon to the D3 because of the AF tracking improvement I saw with the Nikon. If the RED AF system works well, I can’t imagine not buying one of these. I think they are fascinating.

[NikosR]

Modern Pro dSLR's are much more than a sensor. I find it hard to believe that a new company (however well funded) can suddenly challenge manufacturers who have invested years of R&D for the refinement of things like AF, light metering, responsiveness, ergonomics etc.

So given this and the current pricing targets I can't see RED being in a position to chalenge the dSLRl camera companies in 99% of photographic niches. Not yet. However it will surely have them think hard about where they're going. The same cannot be said for the mid to high end Video equipment manufacturers and, most importantly for this forum, MF still back and camera manufacturers. RED must have them sweating by now.

[Pete Ferling]

...Not yet. However it will surely have them think hard about where they're going. The same cannot be said for the mid to high end Video equipment manufacturers and, most importantly for this forum, MF still back and camera manufacturers. RED must have them sweating by now.

That's the real issue.  They won't force me to drop my current gear (not yet), but they will obviously change how we perceive gear in the future.  Being both a videographer and photographer, it's only natural that the two disciplines should mix.  We already use HD frame grabs for web based and small print images.  I have often thought of when will video resolution be enough to match the quality I get from my DSLRs.  RED is heading that direction, modularity is key, and trust me, I and many other multi-disciplinary shooters will welcome the day when all our gear will fit into the trunk of a car, and not bulging out the back of a van.

[Provokot]

Modern Pro dSLR's are much more than a sensor. I find it hard to believe that a new company (however well funded) can suddenly challenge manufacturers who have invested years of R&D for the refinement of things like AF, light metering, responsiveness, ergonomics etc.

So given this and the current pricing targets I can't see RED being in a position to chalenge the dSLRl camera companies in 99% of photographic niches. Not yet. However it will surely have them think hard about where they're going. The same cannot be said for the mid to high end Video equipment manufacturers and, most importantly for this forum, MF still back and camera manufacturers. RED must have them sweating by now.

Red has created a modular system. They, unlike DSLR manufactuers have given their customers an ongoing product upgrade path without making their whole rig obsolete. That is clever.

[wolfnowl]

My son works in the movie industry (rigging, lighting, some camera work) and has had the opportunity to work with and around some RED cameras.  One thing he's mentioned a couple of times is the size of the files and the amount of processing power required to get the most of what RED can offer.  FWIW...

Mike.

[John Camp]

I wouldn't doubt that it's a good camera, but that's not really enough. The big question is market, and that would seem to me to be a real problem. If they can make it sexy enough to attract a lot of professionals, quickly, then they may be okay -- and the design IS pretty sexy. It's like using a Leica when you know in your heart that a Nikon would do. On the other hand, I'm not sure how a custom-made camera will compete in a world where, sooner or later, and probably sooner, Sony will come in, will be able to apply a lot of money and heavy duty marketing techniques (like loss-leaders) and where economics may become more and more important, even for the professionals.

As for the person who thinks the Red will take over journalism...ah, I think not. Not unless Google dies and classified advertising comes back, and local TV starts getting back all those national ads that just left. Even when I was working for newspaper, the mantra was, "Good enough will do fine." If you had a choice between two good-enoughs, then the cheaper would always win. To tell you the truth, if I owned a newspaper, the guys would be going out with G10s. PJ stuff gets trashed...

And two weeks ago, in Pasadena, I was catching a hotel elevator and a wedding photographer hurried to get on. He was carrying two 5Ds, and when I asked (I'm a Nikon guy) he said the 5Ds had changed his life, and he couldn't think of a better camera for a wedding pro. A full frame camera set-up that, for its price, is virtually a disposable for professionals, and, on top of all that, it's light: wedding pros MUST have two of everything...

So: the markets. We shall see.

JC