Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Hasselblad CF39MS. Multi and single samples?  (Read 6920 times)

E_Edwards

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 245
Hasselblad CF39MS. Multi and single samples?
« on: November 10, 2008, 04:01:35 pm »

I am really interested in comparisons and impressions on the remaining (and latest) 4-shot backs, particularly from people who also have a current top of the range single shot back so that they can compare results.


The two backs I am interested in are:

The Sinar Evolution75 and the Hasselblad CF39MS.

I've posted a couple of times about these, but no-one who owns one of the beasts seems to say much...

-For instance, is the 1-shot image less quality than on an equivalent 1-shot only back?

-How long does it take for the 4-shots from pressing shutter to full 100 zoom preview?

-Do they operate with the Rollei Control S?

-Movement or registration issues?

-Quality improvement worth it,  even for non moire prone subjects?

-Live Video impressions?

-Any other issues to be aware of?

I used to have an Imacon 4040 (single,  4 and 16 shots) loved the quality, but it was slow by today's standards.

Thanks.

Edward
« Last Edit: November 10, 2008, 04:51:30 pm by E_Edwards »
Logged

Dustbak

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2442
    • Pepperanddust
Hasselblad CF39MS. Multi and single samples?
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2008, 04:56:53 pm »

Edward

I have just begun to use the 39MS, I also own the single shot only 39. I am not sure whether I can already answer all your questions. I cannot be sure at this moment my opinion will change or shift in the coming months. These are the answers I can give you on what I have experienced sofar.

- The image single shot of the MS appears to be equal as my CF39. I even suspect the MS to be a tad better which might be the new/improved IR filter. It is really too early to definitely conclude that. Sofar the image quality is at least equal.

- 4shot varies. The 4-shot with the 39 is different than with the Ixpress384. The 384 would simply take 4 shots and that is it. The 39 takes a pre shot, followed by something that appears to be a shot but it doesn't trigger my strobes followed by the 4 shots. The sequence in Flexcolor is somewhat slower than in Phocus but that was my finding with the 384.

- I find the 4shot takes about 6-8sec's but to be honest I have never actually timed it. It is not so slow that it irritates me which I find the most important indication. The 100% zoom view is also quite quickly. All in my perception where I do accept to be a bit slower.

- I do a lot of garment in 4-shot which is where it really counts. I find that 4-shot is very doable and I have rarely movement unless someone leave windows open on a windy day etc....16-shot was way more susceptible to movement.

- It really depends on what it is you are photographing whether the improvement is obvious. On the whole you will have better sharpness which is visible on basically everything. On anything that has fabric, garment, of finely woven stuff you will definitely see a big difference.

- Live video. Never even bothered to take a look at it.

No other stuff I can think of. I will let you know more when I have done some more stuff with the multishot.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2008, 05:09:37 pm by Dustbak »
Logged

E_Edwards

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 245
Hasselblad CF39MS. Multi and single samples?
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2008, 05:13:09 pm »

Thank you Dustbak, that's helpful.

I shoot watches, for instance. Sometimes I need absolutely perfect curved edges, with no hint of jaggedness and I need every bit of sharpness that I can get. We are talking Swiss perfection here.

I am very happy with what I have, but I am always looking for the ultimate, even though I know full well that it isn't going to show when reproduced. But edges with no jaggies can take a hell of a lot more sharpening than edges that have been slightly sampled (as in 1 shot systems).

I can see that with fabric you will see an immediate improvement.

Just one more question. Do you know if you can shoot using Lightroom auto Import. I mean, the camera leaves the file in a hot folder which is automatically picked up by Lightroom.
Logged

routlaw

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 160
    • http://www.roboutlawphotography.com
Hasselblad CF39MS. Multi and single samples?
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2008, 09:12:50 pm »

Edward,

Been going through the same conundrum myself lately including comparisons with scan backs. I have seen a couple direct comparisons with the 75H and the 39MS and personally preferred the look of the 39MS more, but take that with a grain of salt since I have no doubt most differences could be made up in either post processing or the capture software setup. To qualify I thought the 39 MS looked more natural, relaxed and yet very resolute at the same time. Color seemed a bit more accurate as well.

The reps from Hasselblad were generous enough to send me some high res direct comparisons with single and 4 shot capture from the 39 ms, and I can tell you with no hesitation the 4 shot image is VASTLY superior in every way. You can see the same image on their website, the still life with needles, thread, and various other sundries from the sewing world. I am printing a 32x42 print of it right now as we speak and even using epson enhanced matt paper you can not only count the threads but the fuzz that makes up the threads along with it. This print is running at only 172.238 ppi, any more detail and it might scare you. Other areas of concern for me are color and value fidelity and in this arena the 4 shot mode is once again is noticeably better in some areas like highlight and shadow rendition. Black threads are just much blacker and more neutral while subtle nuances within the highlight range are rendered more accurately.

Bottom line is the 39 MS is an impressive piece of gear if you can afford one. I am not 100% convinced however its superior to a scan back if set up and used correctly. I asked Hassy about the rather smallish photosites within the 39 MS which are only 6.8 microns given that historically the larger the pixel well the better the image, DR etc, but they don't seemed concerned about it too much. The thought is chip manufacturers have advanced their technology to such a degree they can claim better performance with smaller cells. Understand though DOF due to diffraction limits will kick  in much sooner with smaller fstops/larger apertures while at the same time putting higher demands on lens quality.

Just some rambling thoughts, but hopefully it helps.

Rob
Logged

Henry Goh

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 574
Hasselblad CF39MS. Multi and single samples?
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2008, 11:03:56 pm »

Quote from: E_Edwards
Thank you Dustbak, that's helpful.

I shoot watches, for instance. Sometimes I need absolutely perfect curved edges, with no hint of jaggedness and I need every bit of sharpness that I can get. We are talking Swiss perfection here.

I am very happy with what I have, but I am always looking for the ultimate, even though I know full well that it isn't going to show when reproduced. But edges with no jaggies can take a hell of a lot more sharpening than edges that have been slightly sampled (as in 1 shot systems).

I can see that with fabric you will see an immediate improvement.

Just one more question. Do you know if you can shoot using Lightroom auto Import. I mean, the camera leaves the file in a hot folder which is automatically picked up by Lightroom.

Edwards,

Just wanted to say you do very good work. Inspiring.
Logged

Dustbak

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2442
    • Pepperanddust
Hasselblad CF39MS. Multi and single samples?
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2008, 01:41:28 am »

No, you cannot shoot directly into Lightroom. The files that come out of the Hasselblad cannot be read by ACR/Lightroom. You have to either process them via Flexcolor/Phocus to Tiff/JPG/PSD or convert them to DNG.

I do jewelry as well. The difference between single & multi with metal and stones is way less than with fabric. Yes, the sharpness is of a higher level. You do need movements. With rings for instance I have no more DoF than a couple of mm's and that is already at f16. For 1 client that needs it for the web I will revert to the D300 just to get enough DoF

Anxiously awaiting the HTS, I wonder whether that will get me enough. If not I have no choice that to lower pace even further and get a Linhof or a P3 which I know will deliver even better quality  and probably the needed amount of DoF. It will make me too slow for some stuff which is why I will give the APS sized sensor a go (web anyway).

Logged

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13983
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
Hasselblad CF39MS. Multi and single samples?
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2008, 01:55:33 am »

Quote from: Dustbak
I do jewelry as well. The difference between single & multi with metal and stones is way less than with fabric. Yes, the sharpness is of a higher level. You do need movements. With rings for instance I have no more DoF than a couple of mm's and that is already at f16. For 1 client that needs it for the web I will revert to the D300 just to get enough DoF

Any reason why you are not considering this option? http://www.heliconsoft.com/heliconfocus.html

I am sure it is faster than fine tuning T/S... just shoot 10 images focussed every 3 mm at f22 and you'll have all the DoF you need in a few minutes. One recent example with landscape - 9 images shot with a Nikon D3.



Cheers,
Bernard

Dustbak

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2442
    • Pepperanddust
Hasselblad CF39MS. Multi and single samples?
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2008, 04:36:25 am »

Too slow. For the things that I fall back on with the D300 I have about 10minutes per item in total (unpacking, photographing, post-processing, naming, routing to FTP, packing, etc.). If I don't get it in that amount of time I better not do it.

I have been playing around with the new focus blending in CS4 but that not only takes too much time but it fails where it really counts.

If Helicon focus could do it within the time frame I have I have some doubts whether it really does a good job with macro so I don't have to go over it and fix things manually. We are not even talking the general level of comfort of having done 300 items and feeling comfortable enough not opening all of them to check whether there are no errors.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2008, 04:37:08 am by Dustbak »
Logged

E_Edwards

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 245
Hasselblad CF39MS. Multi and single samples?
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2008, 04:48:36 am »

Thank you Henry:)

Bernard,

I have Helicon Focus and you are right, just as the equivalent in CS4, it works well in many cases. However, after extensive testing we find that it is not consistent with certain subjects. These programs work best when there is contrast to detect, such as in hard lines, texture, etc.  On jewellery and watches they sometimes work but they often fail.

What I mean is that the results are sometimes not as good as you can get by doing it manually, as it takes longer to rectify the masks etc. than to do it manually in the first place. There is also the uncertainty, as in "is this really the best and sharpest image that I can get out of a combination of three or four pictures"? When you check it out, often you find that there is a slight blurring at your sharpest point (not always, as I say), and in a an environment where you can't afford to waste time, or get less than best results, we found that we saved a lot of time by doing composites manually with layer masks. Once you do it regularly, it becomes common place, fast and reliable.

Rob,

Thank you. When I had the demo, the Hass had lovely colours, a slight neutral warmth that I found appealing. Unfortunately I couldn't test it with the 4-shot mode.  I would never in a million years go by what a manufacturer sends you, or by the raw files that you get on their websites, although they are a good initial indication. Since I have also owned a four-shot back in the past, I could quickly see subjects where the four shots were clearly superior, but I also produced shots where you had to look really hard to see the difference, if any.

My concern is that with current 1-shot cameras being so incredibly good, I find it hard to believe that a four-shot can be that much better, unless you go for niche subjects, like in the case of Dustbak.

Dustbak,

I know exactly about your DOF problems, I deal with these every day of my life!
Whether you will be better off using a view camera depends on your clients demands/budget. If you are doing fast, production line shooting, such as the typical e-commerce stuff on white backgrounds and the like, I am pretty sure that you'll be fine with the Hass with the HTS adaptor, which looks pretty good on paper. I know quite a few photographers who use medium format for still-life. It really is beyond me, because a Sinar 5x4 gives you soooo much more control, and if you use it constantly, I find it just as quick as medium format (if you know what you are doing).

In my case, I'm old school, I've always shot 5x4 Sinar and continue to do so, albeit with Leaf digital back. I tried medium format with my Mamiya AFDII and the wonderful 120 Macro and it wasn't for me, top quality, but too many compromises for the type of photography I do. By the way, if anybody wants to buy my pristine ++++++ Mamiya AFDII camera + 80mm + 120 Macro, make me a good offer! You will not find a newer one anywhere else, other than brand new.

It's a pity that you can't use Lightroom in the way I use it with Leaf, a great pity, although I would need to check out the new Hass software to see if I could live with it.


Edward
« Last Edit: November 11, 2008, 04:49:18 am by E_Edwards »
Logged

Dustbak

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2442
    • Pepperanddust
Hasselblad CF39MS. Multi and single samples?
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2008, 05:01:13 am »

I use Phocus more often now. If you have the processing speed it is less than a hassle than most people make of it. I do a lot of e-commerce stuff but also some other that I get  more time on. The e-commerce stuff makes good money if you can get up to speed and do the production but I am cutting down on that in favor of other work. I am now somewhere at 50/50, which isn't particularly easy.

I am really thinking about using a Sinar or Linhof in the studio. I have a very quick learning curve and have the experience that indeed if you know what you are doing things don't have to take long as long as you know how to cut down on the needed steps.

Ah.. well. You try stuff, keep what works and toss out what doesn't
« Last Edit: November 11, 2008, 05:03:29 am by Dustbak »
Logged

ixpressraf

  • Guest
Hasselblad CF39MS. Multi and single samples?
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2008, 05:40:08 am »

Quote from: Dustbak
I use Phocus more often now. If you have the processing speed it is less than a hassle than most people make of it. I do a lot of e-commerce stuff but also some other that I get  more time on. The e-commerce stuff makes good money if you can get up to speed and do the production but I am cutting down on that in favor of other work. I am now somewhere at 50/50, which isn't particularly easy.

I am really thinking about using a Sinar or Linhof in the studio. I have a very quick learning curve and have the experience that indeed if you know what you are doing things don't have to take long as long as you know how to cut down on the needed steps.

Ah.. well. You try stuff, keep what works and toss out what doesn't

I have a very nice sinar camera for sale, fits perfectly your small Cambo stand and you can put your back on without any hassle.    
Logged

Dustbak

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2442
    • Pepperanddust
Hasselblad CF39MS. Multi and single samples?
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2008, 06:11:14 am »

Quote from: ixpressraf
I have a very nice sinar camera for sale, fits perfectly your small Cambo stand and you can put your back on without any hassle.  


I Know, I know.... I have to make some money first the next 2 months. Lately I added; 39MS, spare H2F, Ranger RX Speed, several lenses, very expensive repair, etc... all in the last month or so. Santa was early this year. No more investments until Jan and by than it will be a new MacPro first.

The management has gotten used to the small Cambo stand by now
« Last Edit: November 11, 2008, 06:12:02 am by Dustbak »
Logged

E_Edwards

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 245
Hasselblad CF39MS. Multi and single samples?
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2008, 06:25:18 am »

Out of interest. What Sinar do you have to sell? And where are you based?


Quote from: ixpressraf
I have a very nice sinar camera for sale, fits perfectly your small Cambo stand and you can put your back on without any hassle.  
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up