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Author Topic: Sinar P2 with CFV which 3 lenses recommended?  (Read 6306 times)

carl sanders

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Sinar P2 with CFV which 3 lenses recommended?
« on: November 10, 2008, 02:55:53 pm »

Hi there,

we have just purchased a sliding back, with Schneider magnifier to fit V system digital backs on a Sinar P2.  We have
heard and read various information about lenses being suitable.  What three standard lenses
could we start with taking into account the 16MP chip 37mm x 37mm, which we intend to upgrade eventually to
sinar digital backs or other cost effective options.  Any argument for analogue over digital lens and vice versa?  

Any idea what the widest lens we can use, with movements on this P2? we have read that 24mm and 28mm would not fit
due to the limited distance we can pull the bellows together.  Is there any argument for no camera movements needed at all?

advice much appreciated,

best wishes,

Carl
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yaya

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Sinar P2 with CFV which 3 lenses recommended?
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2008, 04:10:38 pm »

Quote from: carl sanders
Hi there,

we have just purchased a sliding back, with Schneider magnifier to fit V system digital backs on a Sinar P2.  We have
heard and read various information about lenses being suitable.  What three standard lenses
could we start with taking into account the 16MP chip 37mm x 37mm, which we intend to upgrade eventually to
sinar digital backs or other cost effective options.  Any argument for analogue over digital lens and vice versa?  

Any idea what the widest lens we can use, with movements on this P2? we have read that 24mm and 28mm would not fit
due to the limited distance we can pull the bellows together.  Is there any argument for no camera movements needed at all?

advice much appreciated,

best wishes,

Carl

Hello Carl,

The sensor in your back is fairly small compared to newer backs, which should make it less sensitive to misalignment of the two standards when trying to achieve good focus with a wide angle lens, compared to bigger backs.

In my experience, on a P2 the widest lens that you can use with acceptable focus is the Schneider 47XL and this one, mated to the 37X37 sensor the viewing angle is not that wide...

If you intend to use this setup in the studio then you should consider using live video as this should be easier on your eyes as the image on the ground glass would be fairly small with this sensor. Also the sliding back pushes the sensor even farther from the lens so this makes focusing even harder.

The best I believe is to talk to one of the London dealers who specialise in large format solutions and to ask them to come in with 2-3 lenses so you can have a better understanding of what to expect from this setup as there are other elements to consider.

Peartree are having an Open house this Wednesday so you may wish to come by as there will be a few of us there with useful input.

Good luck

Yair


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carl sanders

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Sinar P2 with CFV which 3 lenses recommended?
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2008, 04:21:47 pm »

Thanks Yair, I may be able to make the Pear Tree meet.  The focussing on this Sinar sliding back has not been a problem,
the Schneider magnifier is excellent and bright.  We do have live Video feed as well.

Hope to see you on Wednesday, thanks
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marcwilson

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Sinar P2 with CFV which 3 lenses recommended?
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2008, 05:33:58 pm »

Hi Carl,

Glad you found your way here...more replies to come I ams sure.
out of interest what kind of work are you shooting with this set-up?

Marc


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carl sanders

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Sinar P2 with CFV which 3 lenses recommended?
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2008, 03:45:26 am »

Hi Marc,  

had not realised that I was a member back in 2006.  This set up is for studio still life, pack shots and experimental. The engineering and flexibility of the Sinar P2 is appreciated and I wanted to put it to use.  It would be of interest to see how many studio photographers still use their large format cameras for digital or if they have switched to medium format digital cameras to do still life work. Will have to start another thread to find out.

Thanks for prompt on this website, best wishes,

Carl

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thsinar

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Sinar P2 with CFV which 3 lenses recommended?
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2008, 10:32:48 pm »

Dear Carl,

let me copy here what I had written long ago in a similar thread, in March of 2007. You can find the link to this thread here:

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....28mm+lens+on+p2

Best regards,
Thierry

here what I wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is absolutely possible to use a p2 with a digital back, in 3 different ways:

1. with the lenses on DB mount and Sinarcam 2: the Cam2 is not longer in production, however and sometimes we do have refurbished ones.
2. with the lenses in DB mount with the "Behind-the-Lens" Copal shutter: in this case the multishot function (if needed) has to be done with darkened studio and shutter on B, trigered from the computer. Single shot can be done "normaly".
3. with the lenses in Copal mount: same as above, multishot needs darkened studio. Single shot can be done "normaly".

Those 3 configurations can be used 2 different ways:

- with a "Carrier Frame" positioning the back exactly in the focus/image plane to be able to make use of the p2's easy 2-points sharpness plane adjustment (tilt/swing) and with even a "Revolving Adapter" if wished (no need to take away the back from Vertical to Horizontal shooting).
- with a Sliding Adapter 100 and "Tapered Bellow".

In fact, photographers starting with digital backs on a view camera have all used their existing Sinar p2, usually with the Cam 2, and there are STILL many using this configuration. If your p2 is in good condition and the movements/gears well adjusted, then it is absolutely easy and without any probem at all and the mechanisms are precise enough. There is even a special "Depth-of-Field" scale you can mount on your p2, taking in account the size of the sensor for your f-stop calculation.
I have myself worked for years with these configurations above, untl the p3 became available.

IN ADDITION: I would not and never get rid of my p2 camera: you have the possibility also to CONVERT it to a Sinar p3 (re-design of the p2 for digital = smaller, shorter shift ways, lighter, ...) at very low costs: this conversion kit consists of the 2 4x5" frames (lens and image) which are exchanged with 2 100mm p3 frames and with in addition a 100mm p3 bellows. Once the conversion is done you have the possibility to work with different lens mounts (CPL mount = Coal, CMV mount = Cental Magnetic Shutter) and CAB mount = full automatic control via Captureshop).

Digital lenses from 28mm up to 210 mm can be used.

I hope this answers your questions.

Best regards,
Thierry

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and:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the 28mm is no problem, and can be used as well on any Sinar camera, p, p2 or 3.

The problem is the 24mm: I am pretty sure that this lens might have vignetting at infinity and with the 48x36mm (eMotions) and the 49x36.7mm sensors (SB 54 H and SB 54M).

I shall get advice from our product manager and confirm this as soon as possible.

Thierry

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
and:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
we are not speaking here about the 28mm Nikor, but the 28mm Rodenstock Digital HR: this lens covers the size of a 22MPx, 33 MPx and the 39 MPx sensor at infinity. It has an angle of 101° and an image circle of 70mm (Diagonal of the 22 and 33 MPx = 62mm).

The 24mm is from Schneider and can be mount on a Sinar lens mount for p2 with Schneider or Rollei shutter (possibly also in Copal mount on request): this 24mm lens has an angle of 100° with an image circle of 60mm and therefore it would very slightlybe vigneting at infinity.

The lens is mounted behind the shutter, not like with the p2 used with analog lenses. You need of course the wide angle bellows N°2 to be able to shorten the standards enough. For the focusing, it is very precise to do it with the live video and the focus feature which tells you when maximum focus is reached: no problem at all, for me. On the groundglass it would of course be pretty difficult and inaccurate.

I hope this answers the questions.

Best regards,
Thierry

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote from: carl sanders
Hi there,

we have just purchased a sliding back, with Schneider magnifier to fit V system digital backs on a Sinar P2.  We have
heard and read various information about lenses being suitable.  What three standard lenses
could we start with taking into account the 16MP chip 37mm x 37mm, which we intend to upgrade eventually to
sinar digital backs or other cost effective options.  Any argument for analogue over digital lens and vice versa?  

Any idea what the widest lens we can use, with movements on this P2? we have read that 24mm and 28mm would not fit
due to the limited distance we can pull the bellows together.  Is there any argument for no camera movements needed at all?

advice much appreciated,

best wishes,

Carl
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Thierry Hagenauer
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carl sanders

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Sinar P2 with CFV which 3 lenses recommended?
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2008, 03:33:20 am »

Dear Thierry, thank you for this excellent response, shame that this could not be done by Uk,  best wishes, Carl
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thsinar

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Sinar P2 with CFV which 3 lenses recommended?
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2008, 03:38:02 am »

Dear Carl,

you are welcome.

Not sure if I understood your "could not be done by Uk", but this should be done everywhere, I would not know why not.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: carl sanders
Dear Thierry, thank you for this excellent response, shame that this could not be done by Uk,  best wishes, Carl
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Thierry Hagenauer
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BrianWoolf

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Sinar P2 with CFV which 3 lenses recommended?
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2008, 10:54:45 pm »

Carl.
   I am a studio/still-life photog shooting catalog and jewelry, using a old Sinar p, a Leaf Valeo 17wi with Liveview, a Phase One Sliding Back, bag bellows and older, film era lenses. The basic problem is that the digital chip is so much smaller than 4x5, that for all intents and purposes your lenses double (your 150mm acts like a 300mm). Another way of looking at it is that you need twice as much room. If a small table top shot is 6 feet away with a 180mm lens on 4x5 film, it will be around 12 feet away with a digital back and the same 180mm lens - to get the same photo.
   I use a 150mm f5.6 Schnieder Apo-Symmar as my main lens about 95% or more of the time. I also have a 135mm f5.6 Nikkor but do not use it as the above 150mm Apo-Symmar is so much better. My longest lens is a 210mm f5.6 Nikkor-W, which is a good lens, but is usually to long in my small studio(NYC). I also have two 90mm wides, a Super-Anguleon which has a slight yellow cast over 20% the image and a 90mm f8 Fujinon-SW which has less of a cast than the Super-Anguleon. I can correct these problems with the callibration tool on the Leaf software, but it is specific to f-stop, swing/tilt, rise/fall and focus as well as multiple pops that you would need to do it for each individual photo. It is simpler to pull out the Hasselblad 503cw with an 80mm lens and do the shot. I did have a 360mm f5.6 for 8x10 but got rid of it - I would have to be acoss the street to use it.
   Shorter lenses you say!
   I got hold of an older 47mm xl lens and jury rigged it to a RECESSED LENSBOARD. Collapsed the front and rear standards as much as possible and managed to make focus. The back element of the lens was half an inch or so from the chip. The 4x5 was never made to effect tilts, swings, rises and falls under these conditions, sure you can get some and they might be enough or this might throw your lens out of parralel with the digital sensor so easily. It was very hard to see thru the ground glass with the Phase magnifier, maybe 55% of the ground glass in the center only. The lens was closer to the subject - 5 spray bottles- than i would have preferred, making it difficult to work the set. It was not a pleasant experience, but the 47mm lens was quite good, no distortion and sharp.
   Choices - if you have a large studio and can work long, you will be in good shape. Older lenses have to be tested case by case. Newer digital lens and schneiders xl series will work better, be sharper, crisper. On a 4x5 I would say that 47mm is the shortest, then thru 60, 65, 72, 80, 100, 120 up to 150mm. You don’t need them all. just a wide 47 or 58 or 60mm - a medium 72 thru 100mm - a long 120 to 150mm. These are newer lenses and can be expensive. Most older film lenses get down to 105mm and 90mm with a few 65mm, maybe. So you don’t have much choice but to spend money if you need a 58mm or 72mm.
   Advice - don’t purchase an older lens without being able to test it, in planned use situations. Actually test everything before you buy it, to make sure it will work as you need it.
Good Luck.
Brian
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carl sanders

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Sinar P2 with CFV which 3 lenses recommended?
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2008, 03:16:44 am »

Dear Brian,  

Very interesting and useful reply,  we have a very similar set up, a Schneider Sinaron S 150mm on a P2 with additional V system cameras.  We have the Sinar sliding back with Schneider Magnifier which we find excellent, we  get a clear sharp focus using this system and aligns well with the digital CFV back.  The previous owner had it fitted with a phase one enhanced glass screen and mask, which was pretty pointless as all Phase one had done was squeeze their thin glass screen on top of a Hasselbad screen (not very well it must be added) it forced the frame.  

We replaced the sandwiched phase one focus screen, with a clearer,  no nonsense Hasselblad
screen with our own mask using similar acetate  film on a photocopier.  We do not get to look at the ‘Phase one’ logo every time  we focus. Of more importance we have clear focus.

Your comments confirm what was thought about the lens range and the situations arising with wide angle and movements.  We only spoke with someone on Wednesday who advised about digital and analogue lenses and after prolonged discussion it was concluded that digital lenses did not warrant  the extra expenditure at present, despite their scientific support.

Thanks very much for the reply, it confirms which course to take.

Best wishes,

Carl

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