Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Author Topic: Panoramic head advice  (Read 17347 times)

buzzski

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 80
    • Scottish wedding  photography on film and digital
Panoramic head advice
« on: November 08, 2008, 09:03:05 am »

I've finally decided to purchase a pano head for interiors & exterior building photography. I've done tests using my 40mm distagon with Aptus 17 back on a standard head to compare Autopano and PTgui. (Autopano seems to work best for me) Anyway, it would seem that I am after a head that will allow me to shoot a bit over 90 degrees l-r and 3 rows top to tail. I've looked at various heads, I'm not bothered about 360 degree stuff or making quick time movies. I simply want as accurate a planar image as I can get without too much hassle on site. I was looking at the Manfrotto 303SPH - anyone have any thoughts on it? The camera will always be mounted flat on it with the back in upright position, and there's a fair weight in my set up, the 40mm alone weighs a ton! If anyone is doing any similar work please guide me. I'm not keen on spending money on something that isn't fit for purpose or is a pain in the neck to use. It would seem that most heads are more akin to 35mm cameras. Please help if you think you can!
Logged

elitegroup

  • Guest
Panoramic head advice
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2008, 09:18:05 am »

I like the $158 USD Cullmann Magnesit 35 Nm Ballhead -
Load Capacity: 66 lbs (30 kg)  @ http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller...orToReadReviews

Also see this  Tripod head recommendations thread for more info http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....=28833&st=0

« Last Edit: November 08, 2008, 09:27:06 am by elitegroup »
Logged

dergiman

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 206
    • http://www.philippderganz.com
Panoramic head advice
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2008, 09:57:34 am »

the cullman head is only a ballhead, not a pano head! the really right stuff bh-55 can be equipped with a rotating plate above the ball head, so you can use the ballhead for levelling, and the rotating plate for the pano-rotation. on the bh-55 you can also use a nodal point adapter (not shown in the picture). works like a charm.


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2385/274317...e7c86a2b0_o.jpg
Logged
Philipp Derganz Photography
www.philippderganz.com
Architektur Photo
Wien, Austria

Dustbak

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2442
    • Pepperanddust
Panoramic head advice
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2008, 10:06:27 am »

You obviously want to do multirow pano's in small environments. I use the RRS basic pano kit with a very nice ballhead. I find the RRS kit good value for money and sturdy enough to carry my H2 with all lenses. This kit can only do single row pano's which I find more than enough of a challenge now and than (when using wide-angles at close range).

For your setup you would want to have the omni package which has a second rotation thingy and an extra slide to be able to do multi-row. I found you have to be really meticulous when using things like the 35mm and stitching with closeby objects.

The 303SPH has been on my list as well but I took it off in favor of the RRS. I found the 303 much heavier and more akward. It will probably be fine if you get used to it but I chose a different thing.

I do have 1 thing I don't like about the RRS slider but that I already mentioned in the other threads about tripods & heads.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2008, 10:07:37 am by Dustbak »
Logged

buzzski

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 80
    • Scottish wedding  photography on film and digital
Panoramic head advice
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2008, 10:13:24 am »

I found you have to be really meticulous when using things like the 35mm and stitching with closeby objects.

Thanks for that advice. I've taken a look at the RRS site and it does look like quality stuff (and expandable) whereas the manfrotto is more of a stand alone product. Your point about close up objects concerns me as well. My tests with a standard head showed this up but I was hoping that a dedicated pano head would go some way to sorting this out. Am I being a bit optimistic on this? Is there still paralax issues even with a pano head? Thanks, C

Logged

lightstand

  • Guest
Panoramic head advice
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2008, 10:27:32 am »

I have the Manfrotto 303SPH and absolutely hate it!!! I use it with only 1ds bodies and it just seems very shaky. This could very well be the nature of these pano heads, but if I was to do it again I wouldn't hesitate to spend more money if the unit was truly solid. It would be nice if Linholf would make one.

Recently I was shooting a simple cityscape with a 70-200 and had a bubble level on to check for camera movement with a little wind that bubble was bouncing all over the place. And yes it was on a very sturdy tripod base.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2008, 10:28:40 am by lightstand »
Logged

rljones

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 94
Panoramic head advice
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2008, 10:34:19 am »

you might consider this head:

http://store.nodalninja.com/product_p/r-d3l-6-8-10.htm

it fairly compact and has a built in leveler (it lacks a bubble level, so put one on the camera). the rotations can be set to:

1. locked (no rotation)
2. continuous
3. fixed clicks at 38, 45, or 60 degrees

i mounted a RRS clamp on top and it is a very nice set up.

-robert
Logged

Dustbak

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2442
    • Pepperanddust
Panoramic head advice
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2008, 11:30:17 am »

Quote from: buzzski
I found you have to be really meticulous when using things like the 35mm and stitching with closeby objects.

Thanks for that advice. I've taken a look at the RRS site and it does look like quality stuff (and expandable) whereas the manfrotto is more of a stand alone product. Your point about close up objects concerns me as well. My tests with a standard head showed this up but I was hoping that a dedicated pano head would go some way to sorting this out. Am I being a bit optimistic on this? Is there still paralax issues even with a pano head? Thanks, C


Theoretically you should not have a problem with paralax when rotating on the 'nodal point' but as I said it is easier said than done. This is mainly why I have chosen to perfect my skills with single row stitching first (and I rarely need multi-row anyway). Nice thing about the RRS system is you can easily add more if you need to.

A pano head (the nodal sliders) will definitely make your life easier stitching. That is for sure.

Good thing I passed on the Manfrotto I hear
« Last Edit: November 08, 2008, 11:42:37 am by Dustbak »
Logged

Jack Flesher

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2592
    • www.getdpi.com
Panoramic head advice
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2008, 11:57:32 am »

I've used a few of them and would have to say first to avoid the Manfrotto or Nodal Ninja.  IMO the best bang for similar buck is the RRS Ultimate-Pro Omni-Pivot kit. Basic, easy to carry and assemble and pretty rigid, plus individual components are readily available.   There are a couple of more refined units out there that are very nice, but they sell for 2-4 times the RRS Ultimate...

Cheers,
Logged
Jack
[url=http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/

Carsten W

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 627
Panoramic head advice
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2008, 12:44:06 pm »

Quote from: Jack Flesher
I've used a few of them and would have to say first to avoid the Manfrotto or Nodal Ninja.  IMO the best bang for similar buck is the RRS Ultimate-Pro Omni-Pivot kit. Basic, easy to carry and assemble and pretty rigid, plus individual components are readily available.   There are a couple of more refined units out there that are very nice, but they sell for 2-4 times the RRS Ultimate...

Cheers,

Jack, yours is the first negative comment I hear about the Nodal Ninja. What did you not like about it, and which ones have you tried?
Logged
Carsten W - [url=http://500px.com/Carste

Jack Flesher

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2592
    • www.getdpi.com
Panoramic head advice
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2008, 01:06:08 pm »

Quote from: carstenw
Jack, yours is the first negative comment I hear about the Nodal Ninja. What did you not like about it, and which ones have you tried?

I don't know which model it was, but it back a few years when stitching was gaining popularity.  It was a review sample, was smallish and seemed a bit "flimsy" with my pro-sized DSLR at the time... (And since the OP posted this in the MF section, I assume he wants a fairly robust version.)  It looked similar to this one: http://store.nodalninja.com/product_p/n3ii-sa.htm
« Last Edit: November 08, 2008, 01:32:03 pm by Jack Flesher »
Logged
Jack
[url=http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/

Carsten W

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 627
Panoramic head advice
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2008, 01:22:27 pm »

Quote from: Jack Flesher
I don't know which model it was, but it back a few years when stitching was gaining popularity.  It was a review sample, was smallish and seemed a bit "flimsy" with my pro-sized DSLR at the time...  It looked similar to this one: http://store.nodalninja.com/product_p/n3ii-sa.htm

Okay, so there is some hope that the beefier NN5 is still a good choice. I have heard this recommended often, and was quite taken aback that you have had a negative experience with it.
Logged
Carsten W - [url=http://500px.com/Carste

Jack Flesher

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2592
    • www.getdpi.com
Panoramic head advice
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2008, 01:34:01 pm »

Quote from: carstenw
Okay, so there is some hope that the beefier NN5 is still a good choice. I have heard this recommended often, and was quite taken aback that you have had a negative experience with it.

Quite possibly Carsten, I have no firsthand experience with that one, and shame on me I didn't even realize they had a beefier version    

I will add that for MF, I found even the RRS to be marginal, so personally would not want anything less rigid than it.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2008, 01:36:44 pm by Jack Flesher »
Logged
Jack
[url=http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/

Panopeeper

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1805
Panoramic head advice
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2008, 03:38:10 pm »

Quote from: buzzski
Your point about close up objects concerns me as well. My tests with a standard head showed this up but I was hoping that a dedicated pano head would go some way to sorting this out. Am I being a bit optimistic on this? Is there still paralax issues even with a pano head?
This is the question of accuracy: how accurately you measure the location of entrance pupil and how accurately you can adjust the camera position.

It is not easy to achieve high accuracy.

1. The location of the entrance pupil depends on the focusing distance as well, with many lenses. For example the Canon 50mm f/1.4 changes the location by focusing; not much, but enough to cause small errors. This fact makes fixed adjustments useless. RRS offers (or offered) some stuff dedicated to certain lenses; this is dubious, to say the least.

2. In order to verify the adjustment in the initial measurement, one has to shoot some close AND far objects in the same shot (and two shots are required for one comparison). However, where should be the focus? In order to judge the adjustment with single pixel accuracy, the focus has to be on the subject - but on which one? One of them will be OOF to some degree.

3. Zooming lenses change the entrance pupil with zooming.

4. A tiny error in mounting the camera, i.e. if the axis of the lens is not parallel to the rail when measuring or using the lens can cause much bigger error than a small error in the adjustment itself.

High accuracy in the adjustment and high pixel density for downresing (and hiding tiny errors) is required for good indoor architectural panos. I often laugh when seeing the proudly presented samples on forums - in a fraction of the real size.

Btw, if it is necessary to change the focusing between the frames, then only a decent stitcher can make a good pano, for changing the focusing means changing the focal length, i.e. changing the angle of view, which is a critical parameter of the stitching.
Logged
Gabor

buzzski

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 80
    • Scottish wedding  photography on film and digital
Panoramic head advice
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2008, 04:29:31 pm »

Panopeeper does raise issues that I've certainly considered. However I am aware that in stitching many images together there has to be a compromise made at some point, be it in focus or alignment of images. In order to use my existing equipment stitching is one of the less expensive options. I can justify the cost of a decent head and stitching program, alas, not on buying in to a new system perhaps with wider lenses. There has been some real decent advice posted here and I thank you all for your input so far. Real-life experience cannot be beaten. It would appear the RRS is a decent product and comes highly recommended. Does anyone know if it is distributed outside of the US, in Europe for example? a combination of high import tax and weak Sterling at the moment is a right pain in the neck. As regards stitching programs I was finding that Autopano was more accurate with verticals the PTGui - does anyone have any experience of this? And finally, I intend to shoot panos with a Blad V series in it's normal mode, ie looking down in to the WLF and turning my back in the upright position. Does anyone know if there is a RRS solution that allows the camera to sit this way but still allow a tilt up and down for multi row panos? Thanks again, C
Logged

Dustbak

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2442
    • Pepperanddust
Panoramic head advice
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2008, 05:05:19 pm »

I live in Europe and simply ordered RRS equipment from their website. No import duty just VAT which is no problem since I can deduct it.

I see no reason why you could not use the V with the pano equipment if there isn't a dedicated RRS bracket for the V (I thought there was BTW) You could use the generic. It might be akward to look down into the WLF especially when it is high up but that would have been the case anyway. Unless of course you want to turn the thing totally upside down there might be not enough clearance for the WLF but that appears somewhat ridiculous to me.

I use it with the H and basically don't look through the finder anymore after the first shot. The use of a finder is grossly exaggerated when doing panos especially when you combine it with focus blending and bracketing
« Last Edit: November 08, 2008, 05:06:40 pm by Dustbak »
Logged

Panopeeper

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1805
Panoramic head advice
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2008, 05:10:01 pm »

Quote from: buzzski
I was finding that Autopano was more accurate with verticals the PTGui
I am afraid the explanation is rather in the understanding (or lack thereof) how to utilize Panorama Tools, the underlying software.

Principally, PT does not make any difference between vertical and horizontal panos in the stitching.

Errors may be caused by the selection of matching points (control points). Not only the accuracy but the placement, number and distribution of the control points is of utmost importance. I have not been using the auto control point selection for a long time, and I am cautious with letting the program correct my selections through the micro aligment feature.
Logged
Gabor

Carsten W

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 627
Panoramic head advice
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2008, 05:13:34 pm »

Quote from: EPd
I like the new Novoflex heads as well. Relatively compact and very sturdy. Beautifully made. Brochure here (only in German):
http://www.novoflex.de/pdf/Novoflex_Panorama_D.pdf

Hmm, they look good, but they don't mention medium format in the specs, nor weight supported, just focal lengths, presumably 35mm lenses. I wonder how stable they would be with a 645 on them? Furthermore, the steps in the rotation seem to be fixed, an advantage to the NN5 system.
Logged
Carsten W - [url=http://500px.com/Carste

Carsten W

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 627
Panoramic head advice
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2008, 05:17:21 pm »

Quote from: GBPhoto
An important factor in stitching interiors is the stitching program you choose.  I've found Autopano Pro to totally fall down in these situations, and there's no manual control point editor to fix things with.  You'll want to stick with a program based on Panorama Tools: PT Assembler, PT Gui, PT Mac.  (APP is great, however for distant subjects and natural/organic subjects, and has a brilliant automated workflow.)

Autopano Pro does have a manual-ish control point editor, I have been using it quite happily. You select small matching areas in each image, and then add points. Do you mean that you want to add points individually yourself? Does the area-addition not work for you?

I don't see why interiors would be different than anything else. As long as you rotate around the entrance pupil, it should stitch seamlessly, no?
« Last Edit: November 08, 2008, 05:17:33 pm by carstenw »
Logged
Carsten W - [url=http://500px.com/Carste

Dustbak

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2442
    • Pepperanddust
Panoramic head advice
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2008, 05:17:51 pm »

I have used the Novoflex pano head, solely the rotational head together with the round Q=plate clamp. I still have it but I don't use it anymore since I have the RRS. The Novoflex is nice but is not of the same built quality as the RRS rotational head (PCL1 if I am not mistaken).

I have not used the Novoflex sliders.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up