newbie in digital MF/LF

[rainer_v]

the sinar e75lv does a terrffic job with exposures till 30sec, there is no noise in this files at iso100. now even iso 200 is  very good with 30sec exp. time.
i never came , even in the darkest interiors , in a situation where i couldnt get what i wanted with this 30 seconds. sure here helü the HR lenses, for which i can work without centerfilter or work at f 4,5 or 5,6 if nessecary.

about color casts: all sensors show them with wideangle shift lenses, at least. so i n any case its required to make a white shot before the shot, but thats not such big deal as it sounds like. the dalsa chips show less of this color casts than the kodaks, and the kodaks wo. microlenses show less than the chips with microlenses. although its possible to work with all backs, after applying these white corrections to them, image quality may degrade under certain circumstances if the shift which has to be inverted is too big. so less colorcast still is better than much.

[michele]

Hi Florian, not all the kodak sensors can support a longer exposure than 30 seconds... PhaseOne and Hasselblad have the same Kodak sensor but Hasselblad can get just 30 seconds and it's not a beauty... If you need a technical camera you are going to pay much money... perhaps you want to buy the shneider digitar 24mm that needs a central ND filter for the light falloff, you loose around 2 stops... if you like panfocus you need at least F 11, if you are using a digital back without microlenses (and you need a back without microlenses with a technical camera) you use 50 iso 9 times over 10 times... So you are going to use 1 or 2 mitues exposure a lot of times. I think the best choise for you it's the PhaseOne P45 refurbished (if you can find one). Don't think about the P25 ref. because it's limited at 30 seconds...(of course all the P+ backs support long exposures)  The P45 it's very good, now it's very cheap, and it's very usefull in a lot of situation... Did I mention that I am going to buy one?
Of course the best thiong you can do is to try all the back you can afford with your budget and then take the one that's best for you
Bye bye

[rainer_v]

Hi Florian, not all the kodak sensors can support a longer exposure than 30 seconds... PhaseOne and Hasselblad have the same Kodak sensor but Hasselblad can get just 30 seconds and it's not a beauty... If you need a technical camera you are going to pay much money... perhaps you want to buy the shneider digitar 24mm that needs a central ND filter for the light falloff, you loose around 2 stops... if you like panfocus you need at least F 11, if you are using a digital back without microlenses (and you need a back without microlenses with a technical camera) you use 50 iso 9 times over 10 times... So you are going to use 1 or 2 mitues exposure a lot of times. I think the best choise for you it's the PhaseOne P45 refurbished (if you can find one). Don't think about the P25 ref. because it's limited at 30 seconds...(of course all the P+ backs support long exposures)  The P45 it's very good, now it's very cheap, and it's very usefull in a lot of situation... Did I mention that I am going to buy one?
Of course the best thiong you can do is to try all the back you can afford with your budget and then take the one that's best for you
Bye bye

i`d vote for the emotion75, where base iso is 100, together with HR lenses.
or,- really cheap now- the e54lv. after my opinion 22mp is for most sizes plenty enough resolution.

[rethmeier]

The new Aptus/Sinar AF10 will go to 1 minute and uses a Dalsa Sensor.
The PhaseOne P65 goes to 1 minute as well and also uses a Dalsa sensor.

Dalsa sensors will give you a more film like look,however this could be a personal view only.

Regards,
Willem.

[Plekto]

@ Plekto:

Thanks for the Information, but I doubt that the Quality is much better an can reach the IQ of MF.

My Budget for the MF System is about €12.000,-

Well, given the low price for the mod if you already have a full frame DSLR, it is at least worth checking out or asking when/if they can do it.  They don't list it on their site - only the 5D, so this might be special order or maybe just not available right now.  They don't have a feedback forum that I can see.

For 12K Euros, you're looking at 20MP or so, which is why I brought this up.  *Maybe* you can find a 30MP DB used, but then there's the body, the lenses...  DBs do look nice, but the reality is that MF film is closer to 60MP if you scanned it even at a normal 2400DPI and factored in that the film has no Bayer or similar pattern creating interpolation losses.    Those do exist, but gosh, they are stupidly expensive.

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=29097
This is a reasonable price and the DB *used* is almost all of your budget.  Ouch.  A ~20MP full frame Canon and a 20MP DB are just not enough different, IMO, to warrant the price difference, so ~30MP DBs are almost a requirement now to make such a large expenditure worthwhile.   15-20K Euros might be possible, used, but certainly not new.

http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/t...dangerousl.html
It's a noticeable difference in sharpness.  

http://luminous-landscape.com/essays/back-testing.shtml
Look at the Phase One P25 vs the Canon Mk2. Even at 16MP vs 22MP, it's like seeing double, or nearly so.(the difference in sharpness is 100% due to the AA filter on the Canon)  Most people agree though, that even with the AA filter on it, the P25 and the Mk3(new model) are a near tossup as to which one is better. (though neither are a P45, of course, which is where you should aim, IMO, if you *REALLY* want a DB)

A used Mkiii setup would probably not cost half or a third of your budget.

[hs0zfe]

Hi Florian,

we are at the beginning of a worldwide recession. I would recommend you keep your powder dry (save the cash) and get started with film. Try a roll film back like Linhof's Super rolles which often sell on www.ebay.de for less than EUR 100. Or 4x5 sheet film.

I just posted some LF newbie questions myself. But my 2 cents would be
not to use a single focus WA lens. Take fish eyes, it will get boring. DOF is noice now and then but even a tele can be useful in landscape photography. In other words, what's your big thing with extreme wide angle lenses? One location, 2 or 3 lenses and the result will be very different.  I would prefer this to having the greatest fish eye or other WA.

Q: which LF system have you chosen? would you buy the camera new? I just won an old Linhof Kardan Bi with tripod for $ 255 in the USA on eBay. If you haven't chosen a LF system yet, look what's available! Q: would hauling a big tripod with a monorail camera be a problem for you? There are field cameras.

Scheimpflug: I only used that on buildings and straight lines. In nature, I do not think of many uses. But you want extreme DOF, right? Well, go make up your mind about how heavy your equipment can be.

Again, why not get started using film? A few hundred Euros pay for a roll film back and 30 120 films like Velvia 50s or whatever you are choosing. If you like LF well, then you can invest the big bucks on some digital back.

BTW, I opted for the Fuji GX 680 and Mamiya RB 67 MF systems as Hasselblads are simply too expensive for my liking.

I started out taking photos like a madman. one day, I had to throw away thousands of junk prints and slides. That was very emotiuonal and painful. But it taught me an important lesson. Less many but better photos are preferable. quality, not quantity. And that size matters. I still have some wonderful MF and LF slides of roses. Deep colours, quality images. How do you feel about quality and quantity? Would you want to "get it right" and just take a few careful LF photos or choose auto bracketing and come home with hundreds of hastily shot images?

Take care,
Chris

[Florian Gradwohl]

HI,
This week I’ll get the Phase One AFD III and a P45 ref. for testing. I guess the P45 should work for me. It doesn’t have microlenses, so I can use it on a technical camera as well and the exposure Time can go easily over one minute (this is what I read in some reviews). And I´ll get the Bundle of the 80mm Lens with body and DB for under €12.000, - excl. VAT. Still pretty much money for an amateur …

I think if I´m satisfied with the results I´ll buy it.

@ hs0zfe:
I don’t want to go back to film. I like the digital workflow.
I can do all the things by my own, developing and printing, BW and color. Don’t need a Lab anymore …

I haven´t choose a LF System now.
I really have too little knowledge at the moment to make a decision.
But I guess I I´m looking for something like an arTec or a Linhof Tecno or Master 3000.

As I´m doing Landscape, Nature and Architecture, my gear has to be as light as possible.
When going out with DSLR my Backpack weights about 15 -20 kg, I don’t want to carry more than that when doing LF. A Kardan is too heavy for sure.
I guess a Camera and 2 or 3 lenses is what I need. Let’s say ~ 20mm, 50mm, 80mm (in DSLR World). But I don’t know yet, I´ve to learn more about LF before I can make a decision.
All the different Systems are confusing me, shutters, Centerfilter (don’t like that by the way), and other stuff that I had not to care about when using DSLR.

And yes I prefer quality over quantity. Otherwise I would stay with DSLR.  But I made a similar experience when I switched from film to digital 5 years ago. I ended up with 7000 shots from a 4 week trip through western US and none of them were really breathtaking. But this is not a question of gear, this is a question about yourself …


Florian

[Plekto]

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=29067
Sony A900 vs MF discussion.

This might also be a vastly cheaper option.

http://www.dboyd.com/Photos_08/Hasselbladv...eercan/test.htm
Another test.  Actual owner of both systems.  

Quote
****
Readers can draw their own conclusions about the camera comparison, but in my own case, I no longer feel the need to own a P30 back.
****
He seems to be convinced.  After looking at the files myself yesterday, I come to the same conclusion.  The difference is just too small to justify the prices spent.

The A900 somehow was missed on my "radar" for some reason, but there you go.  It plainly starts to blur the line between the stupidly expensive 20MP or so DBs and the more reasonable consumer models.  That would leave a huge amount of cash left over for lenses.  

As for myself, I still shoot film for MF.  I just don't shoot more than a couple of dozen rolls at most a year, so the huge cash outlay for a digital MF system - or even a a900 is... it would take me 15-20 years to recoup the cost.  And 6*6 slides are gorgeous as well.  Fuji has re-introduced its ISO 50 Velvia slide film and it's perfect for scenery.  At 3-4 dollars a roll, it's just shocking how inexpensive it is for the results.  You'd think that for that level you'd pay $5 or more per shot, but it's not even close to that much to shoot with.

The only reason I could see for even owning a MF system today would be to be able to swap between a film back and a digital back.  If you want to only do digital, then there's no reason to get a digital back - you might as well just buy a 24MP camera and be done with it - concentrate on the lenses.

[phoTOMgraphy]

HI,
This week I’ll get the Phase One AFD III and a P45 ref. for testing. I guess the P45 should work for me. It doesn’t have microlenses, so I can use it on a technical camera as well and the exposure Time can go easily over one minute (this is what I read in some reviews). And I´ll get the Bundle of the 80mm Lens with body and DB for under €12.000, - excl. VAT. Still pretty much money for an amateur …

Florian

Hi Florian,
I'm following this thread with high interest.

may I ask you where you gonna lend/buy this equipment?
I'm also austrian and very interested in digital MF.

Maybe we could meet after you made your decision and already own your camera, so i could see such equipment in action.
may I ask also you to do a side bye side comparison from your dslr and the phase back. (same picture)
I would love to print both and see the real difference, or if we could meet someday you could show me such a print comparison?

best regards
thomas

ps.: to hsOzfe:
>>we are at the beginning of a worldwide recession. I would recommend you keep your powder dry (save the cash) and get started with film<<

i think it's better to invest your money before the global situation puts it to worthlessness.

[revaaron]

Florian welcome to the club.  I JUST bought a MF for my hobby times.  I still do all my pay stuff with digital.
Do what people suggest here, pick a camera system that will accept a DB, but start off shooting film and learn.
Scan, play with, and print before you drop $10K-$40K on a DB.
That's where I am right now. learning and loving MF.

I'm going to wait til I have a weekend and rent an aptus for my camera. I went with the contax 645, but sort of wish I went with the mamiya rz67 pro II. Good thing is that film cameras are on the cheap now.

You want to do landscapes. if that is what you are doing with a tripod, I suggest going with the mamiya rz67. plus 6x7 is boarding on LF, but with out the size hassle or LF and you get to use standard 120/220 film.

[revaaron]

oh and the kodak's "milky glass" or "italian flag" issue... well, I have a kodak slr/n and it's got that issue. I'm not sure if the DB's have it, but I'm going to guess they probably do.  you can find PS scripts that can take it out.  My Kodak SLR/n is probably my least used, but when I want to shoot on a tripod and print it out at 24x36, I go with the Kodak over my nikon D3,D2x, etc... As long as you shoot the base ISO, it's an amazing camera that can't be matched in the sun light for skin tones and film like look to the pictures.  If you stray from the base ISO, be prepared to be disappointed. The Kodak DB is also only 36mmx36mm so it's like the APC to FF on 35mm. If the kodak db was closer to full size, I would own one and work around the italian flag issue.
http://www.returntothepit.com/rttppics/doo...s056_348108.jpg