newbie in digital MF/LF

[Florian Gradwohl]

Hi,
I´m Florian from Austria und I plan to step in to digital Large Format Photography.
It’s quite complicated for someone how shoots DSLR only. So there are a lot of things I don’t know, like Standards (Format, Compatibility …), Different Manufacturers, Lens-quality and so on.

Maybe if I tell you what I want to do, somebody can give me advice for my first steps …
Why I´m switching to LF/MF ?

My intension is Image Quality. There is no way a Canon Fullframe Sensor can reach the Image Quality of a Digital Back. I´m really disappointed with the Quality I Produce with my 1 DsMKII and Canon L-Lenses since I saw what is possible with MF/LF.

What I want to do is buying a Mamyia/Phase One AFD III with a P45 or Leaf Aptus II 6 DB. It’s a Bundle with an 80mm Lens. That gives me the Opportunity to shoot MF too. As addition for my Landscape, Nature und architectural work I´m thinking of buying a Camera like the Linhof Tecno, Master Technika 3000 or a Cambo Wide.

First question: Leaf or Phase One ?
I cannot afford a brand new DB, so I have to stay with one of the mentioned Backs (refurbished)

Second Question: do I need Scheimpflug for Landscape work ?  Because the Cambo Wide only offers shift … so it would be interesting if the Scheimpflug rule is important for Landscape and Nature. I like pictures with lots of DOF.

Lenses:
I like to shoot WA ( 16 – 35 mm on DSLR), are there Lenses available for Digital LF ? I  guess yes, how can I calculate the focal length (DSLR-LF)
I´m totally confused about the different Mounting Systems and Crop-Factors … If Phase One is writing 1,1 is it 1,1 for MF and LF ?   For Linhof and Cambo ?


Thanks for your Help!


Florian

[Doug Peterson]

Lenses:
I like to shoot WA ( 16 – 35 mm on DSLR), are there Lenses available for Digital LF ? I  guess yes, how can I calculate the focal length (DSLR-LF)
I´m totally confused about the different Mounting Systems and Crop-Factors … If Phase One is writing 1,1 is it 1,1 for MF and LF ?   For Linhof and Cambo ?

We have a Focal Length Calculator which will let you figure out what lenses will do what.

Type in the lens you know on the platform you know. For instance you could type in 16 under "35mm (camera)" and find out that with a P45 (the platform does not matter, only the sensor size) you need a 23mm to achieve the same image.

There are 28mm lenses available on the Mamiya/Phase One body and on the Hasselblad H platform. However for maximum IQ you would want to explore technical cameras which let you use a Rodenstock or Schneider large-format-lens which will be unquestionably higher in IQ than the 28mm lenses from either Mamiya/Phase or Hasselblad. There is a 23mm, 24mm, and 28mm available for these tech cameras each of which is incredibly sharp. The 23mm and 28mm offer a large enough image circle to do meaningful within-image-circle-stitching for an even wider/higher-resolution image while the 24mm barely covers the P45 (the 24mm however is the most affordable).

More on tech cameras.

Doug Peterson,  Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer  |  Personal Portfolio

[Plekto]

http://www.maxmax.com/hot_rod_visible.htm

You might also consider a conversion like this which essentially modifies the ~20MP sensor to behave like a typical 20MP DB.   Most(but not all) of the reason the DSLRs look like crud and the DBs don't is because of the AA filter.  The lenses have something to do with it as well, but at 20MP, it's fairly hard to tell the differences between a modified DSLR and the MF setup.(note - 20MP is much closer to 645 quality if you scanned film)  

What's your budget?  

[jimgolden]

 I would think it would need to be something like at least $30k USD. the bundle will be 15-20, then the field camera plus adapters, etc, etc...

[Graham Mitchell]

First question: Leaf or Phase One ?
I cannot afford a brand new DB, so I have to stay with one of the mentioned Backs (refurbished)

I would recommend you take a look at the Sinar eMotion54. The price has just been dropped to €6000 (new) and Sinar is the only back that comes standard with a 3yr warranty. It also uses a mount adapter system (unlike Phase and Leaf) so you can use the same back on different cameras after just 2 minutes spent changing the adapter.

Lenses:
I like to shoot WA ( 16 – 35 mm on DSLR), are there Lenses available for Digital LF ?

Yes, look at the Rodenstock HR lenses for example. The new 23mm lens is the widest and is equivalent to 18mm on Canon.

[thsinar]

Dear Florian,

Yes, IMO tilts (and sometimes swings) and Scheimpflug sharpness plane adjustments are needed when shooting landscapes or architecture.

In this respect, you may want to have a look also to the new Sinar arTec introduced recently. The newly designed view camera does feature V and H shifts, but as well tilt and swing possibility, together with having a ground-glass for precise composing and adjusting. A detailed description can be found here:

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....65&hl=artec

The corresponding brochure can be found on our homepage (www.sinarcameras.com) or here:

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....01&hl=artec

Best regards,
Thierry

That gives me the Opportunity to shoot MF too. As addition for my Landscape, Nature und architectural work I´m thinking of buying a Camera like the Linhof Tecno, Master Technika 3000 or a Cambo Wide.

Lenses:
I like to shoot WA ( 16 – 35 mm on DSLR), are there Lenses available for Digital LF ? I  guess yes, how can I calculate the focal length (DSLR-LF)
I´m totally confused about the different Mounting Systems and Crop-Factors … If Phase One is writing 1,1 is it 1,1 for MF and LF ?   For Linhof and Cambo ?


Thanks for your Help!


Florian

[Florian Gradwohl]

Thank´s all of you for your comments!


@ dougpeterson:

Thanks for that calculator.
The Platform does not matter only with MF or also with LF ?
I thought the distance between Lens an Sensor is important and different on many Platforms ?
(Cropfactor)

I´ve seen the 23mm at Photokina, it´s a beautiful lens (and expensive …)


@ Plekto:

Thanks for the Information, but I doubt that the Quality is much better an can reach the IQ of MF.

My Budget for the MF System is about €12.000,-


@ foto-z:
I have not seen a Sinar Back live, but what I´ve seen so far they don’t have Displays
How is the IQ compared to Phase an Leaf ?
Do you know what Sensor they are using ?


By the Way: are there other Manufacturers than Kodak and Dalsa for DB´s ?
Are there big differences between them ?


@thsinar

I´ve seen the arTec at Photokina, it’s nice but too expensive for me …

I like the Linhof Tecno, but I don’t know the Price for a complete LF – equipment

What else do I need (besides Lenses) to go out in the field and how are the Prices …?

[Graham Mitchell]

@ foto-z:
I have not seen a Sinar Back live, but what I´ve seen so far they don’t have Displays

The eMotion series and eSprit series all have LCD screens.

How is the IQ compared to Phase an Leaf ?

All the backs have very similar quality. Much bigger differences are features, warranty, and the cameras they can be matched with.

Do you know what Sensor they are using ?

A mixture of Kodak and Dalsa.

[Kumar]

I like the Linhof Tecno, but I don’t know the Price for a complete LF – equipment

What else do I need (besides Lenses) to go out in the field and how are the Prices …?

The Techno is rumored to be around 4000 Euro. You might want a sliding back, in addition. If you buy the arTec, the sliding back is free  
The Sinar eVolution and the older backs like the 54 series, and the Jenoptik Precision series do not have a display.

Cheers,
Kumar

[Justin Berman]

The 23mm and 28mm offer a large enough image circle to do meaningful within-image-circle-stitching for an even wider/higher-resolution image while the 24mm barely covers the P45 (the 24mm however is the most affordable).

More on tech cameras.

Doug Peterson,  Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer  |  Personal Portfolio

I did some quick searching on this topic on google, didn't turn up anything. Are there any tutorials, books, etc. on stitching within the image circle.

Thanks!
Justin

[Florian Gradwohl]

All the backs have very similar quality. Much bigger differences are features, warranty, and the cameras they can be matched with.


I´ve seen some long- exposure pictures of a leaf Back, it was pretty noise and full of dead pixels …
(Don’t know the Exposure-time, but I guess 30 or 60 sec. Was a shoot in a twilight situation …
The Software reduced most of the dead Pixels, but the noise was still there

[thsinar]

@thsinar

I´ve seen the arTec at Photokina, it’s nice but too expensive for me …

I like the Linhof Tecno, but I don’t know the Price for a complete LF – equipment

What else do I need (besides Lenses) to go out in the field and how are the Prices …?

Dear Florian,

The Sinar arTec seems more expensive but has ALL features included:

- V & H shifts
- Tild AND Swing
- Sliding Back with ground glass for precise composing and focusing
- rotating base mechanism for panoramic views
- helicoidal focus lenses: precisely adjusted to infinity
- etc ...

If you wish a camera with these features you my end up at least at the same price, probably higher.

best regards,
Thierry

[Guy Mancuso]

All the backs have very similar quality. Much bigger differences are features, warranty, and the cameras they can be matched with.


I´ve seen some long- exposure pictures of a leaf Back, it was pretty noise and full of dead pixels …
(Don’t know the Exposure-time, but I guess 30 or 60 sec. Was a shoot in a twilight situation …
The Software reduced most of the dead Pixels, but the noise was still there

The Phase P25, P30 and P45 Plus backs will go up to 1 hour exposures if that is what you are after. One way to eliminate some of your choices is to also decide if important to you is if you want leaf shutters or focal planes shutters. Focal plane camera's would be the Mamiya/Phase bodies and also the Contax 645. Leaf Shutter bodies would be Hassy H series and the Hy6. On the backs you can pretty much mix and match body and backs with some limitations of course . Hassy Back you can't put on a Mamiya body for instance. Phase backs will go on almost all the bodies except the Hy6 for example. Let me add these are some of the popular bodies that I mentioned, Hassy has some others as well that work in digital. Here again one must do your research and figure out what back /body setup you are after. As far as used /demo's there out there in almost any brand you finally decide on. Do not forget software and customer service as part of you purchasing decision both very important and i would not buy any of them without good customer service in your country /area or software that works in favor of your workflow and does a great job on your files. Good luck

[Florian Gradwohl]

The Phase P25, P30 and P45 Plus backs will go up to 1 hour exposures if that is what you are after. One way to eliminate some of your choices is to also decide if important to you is if you want leaf shutters or focal planes shutters. Focal plane camera's would be the Mamiya/Phase bodies and also the Contax 645. Leaf Shutter bodies would be Hassy H series and the Hy6. On the backs you can pretty much mix and match body and backs with some limitations of course . Hassy Back you can't put on a Mamiya body for instance. Phase backs will go on almost all the bodies except the Hy6 for example. Let me add these are some of the popular bodies that I mentioned, Hassy has some others as well that work in digital. Here again one must do your research and figure out what back /body setup you are after. As far as used /demo's there out there in almost any brand you finally decide on. Do not forget software and customer service as part of you purchasing decision both very important and i would not buy any of them without good customer service in your country /area or software that works in favor of your workflow and does a great job on your files. Good luck

Thanks Guy.

Does anybody know if there are special "Things" I should have in mind with using DB´s on LF Cameras (Shifting, Tilting, ...) ?
This would influence my decision ...

Thank you

Florian

[Guy Mancuso]

First you should avoid any back with micro lenses since T/S will give you color shift issues. The Three backs that stand out right away are the P30 plus, HD31 and the new Sinar espirit 65 . These all use the Kodak sensor that has micro lenses. Dalsa sensors do not use micro lenses just the Kodak one in the backs above do. So Phase backs that you should look at are the P25,P45 and the new P65. Hassy there P39 and there new ones also. Leaf backs all of them are okay and Sinars just the 65 avoid since it has micro lenses but the others do not. Also pick a back that certainly can be used easily on a tech camera Alpa, Cambo, Horseman, Silvestri, Sinar A3 or whatever it is called, You also mentioned Linhof. Most of these camera's can take any back with the correct adapter. This just narrowed some of your backs down which is exactly what you want to do and go through the process of elimination. Again you are in Austria look around for dealers that will support whatever back you chose. For instance if there is no Hassy than eliminate that, that was just a example but the key point is you go down who is there in your area to handle you quickly and the issue you have or just calling a dealer on a software issue. This stuff is just as important in my mind than the hardware itself. More questions to ask yourself do you need a high sync speed than get a leaf system . If you need higher shutter speeds than focal plane is what you want. This will eliminate certain brands right away from your choices. I went focal plane and went Phase all the way but that is me and my needs but very happy I did but I did the same thing just eliminate brands and types of systems right off the bat. Software also is very important. Say you hate leaf capture than you obviously would not want there back just another example .  The keys to picking a system are really quite simple. Once you start identifying what your needs are than it becomes a lot easier. Agree it is a daunting task but know what you want and that becomes the key to it all. Just some things to think about
Leaf or focal plane
Body style
Finders
lenses
compatibility
battery
warranty
service
software
dealer network

[mtomalty]

Florian

If long exposures (longer than 20-30 seconds) are a regular requirement for you then,from my experience,
you are going to be very frustrated with the results with most backs using Dalsa sensors.

Different brands use different software approaches to extend shooting times and some are more successful at this
than others.
As an example,Phase and Hasselblad  both use (apart from the new P65+) Kodak sensors.
Phase can get very useable exposures approaching 1 hour while Blad users seem to hit the wall around 32 seconds.

I believe Phase has adopted a Dalsa sensor in their forthcoming P65+ and,if I recall discussions from this forum on the subject,
exposure times are currently limited to the 30 second range

Mark

[mtomalty]

First you should avoid any back with micro lenses since T/S will give you color shift issues.

It should also be noted that you will also get color cast issues with back not equipped with microlenses when
using a solution that requires tilt and/or shift.

Each system has their own routines for correcting this cast with their software.
Most involve capturing an additional exposure with an opaque plexi-type surface placed over the lens.
This file is then analyzed by manufacturers software and is used to  calculate,and apply, a 'negative' cast
to the files that need correction.


These casts are not readily correctable should one wish,for whatever reason, to process files in third party Raw converters.

Mark

[rainer_v]

It should also be noted that you will also get color cast issues with back not equipped with microlenses when
using a solution that requires tilt and/or shift.

Each system has their own routines for correcting this cast with their software.
Most involve capturing an additional exposure with an opaque plexi-type surface placed over the lens.
This file is then analyzed by manufacturers software and is used to  calculate,and apply, a 'negative' cast
to the files that need correction.


These casts are not readily correctable should one wish,for whatever reason, to process files in third party Raw converters.

Mark

the new sinar exposure 6.1 allows now to write corrected dng files in a batch workflow, similar than before brumbaer tools..

[thsinar]

It is called "Sinar p3", but there is also the Sinar f3 and the Sinar arTec.

Thierry

... Sinar A3 or whatever it is called ...

[Florian Gradwohl]

Thanks,

To Sum up:
Micro lenses - not good for T/S (Kodak)
Dalsa not good for longer exposures (lets say about over 30 sec.)

So what I´m looking for is a Kodak Sensor that has no Micro Lensens ?

BUT:
Mtomalty says that also Backs without Microlenses are producing colorcasts … ? damned ...

Somebody told me that the Dalsa Sensors are better than Kodak because the Kodak backs are having a Colorcast from green to Magenta all over the Image. Is that true ?
Anyway, if I want to take long exposures, I have to stay with Kodak right?