G10, LX3, or FZ28 for Serious Amateur?

[Plekto]

The G10 is more compact, however.  Even if the weight is similar.   So more likely to be carried with you.

True.  But there is something to be said about a real SLR.    The E420 has no major hand "growth" on the right side of the case, so it's really about how much the lens protrudes.  I simple 35mm or 50mm equivalent lens is very low profile.  It's obviously aimed at the prosumer crowd that wants a SLR but one that's more the size of their old 35mm film cameras of the 70s and 80s.  But you are limited with Olympus a bit more, of course, on lens choices.  this is why I like the slightly larger Canon or Nikons.  

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0803/08030501olympuse420.asp
It's not a great camera, but it's better than most pocket cameras.

edit:
http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/olympus/e420-review/
Here is a review with the better but larger 14-42mm zoom (other kit option - less expensive).  It seems to have better optics than the 25mm.

[DarkPenguin]

The Panasonic G1 has started to ship.  It is smaller than the 420.  (Barely.)  Its lenses are smaller.  Plus they should work on the really small Oly mFT body due next year.

Still, it is the lens that screws you.  Kills any chance of putting the camera in your pocket.

[Plekto]

I don't think it is smaller, because of the handle and how to protrudes.  The E420 is a uniform surface like say, an old AE1.  So the lens sticking out, if it's the only thing, isn't always so bad.  

I'd still go for the Canon, but that's just me.  I don't really see the problem with carrying a small camera in my jacket pocket or around my neck.

[Dan.W]

Thanks to everyone that replied.

Your replys have been very helpful, and it has given me a lot to think about that I wouldn't have on my own.  Much appreciated.

I can safely say that I've ruled out the FZ28, and I'm heavily leaning towards the G10 (thanks to this topic and a few others on this forum at this time...).

I know some of you recommended DSLR's, however I just want to stress I'm not a proffesional, and I am just looking for a camera that'll help me to understand more about photography in the areas and styles that I mentionaed earlier without confusing the hell out me everytime I get the camera out (then when I finally get my head around it, the moments' probably gone).  For me the camera has to be P&S with great flexibility, ie compact, wide, tele, macro, low-light, video, and RAW, as it'll be my only camera.  And not to mention, my budget won't allow for a DSLR and all the extras to make it do what I want.

For these reasons I think the G10 will be a solid choice (must admit I am disappointed about not having 720p HD video rec).  I'll be ready to get one within the next month or so and can't wait!  Hopefully pricess drop a little by then too

Dan

[httivals]

Dan: I think the G10 is a fantastic camera for what it is, a great compact that when used with particular awareness of its limitations can -- at iso 80, 100, and perhaps also at 200 -- produce prints up to 18" or even in some circumstances 24" in the long dimension that can equal those from a top quality 12 megapixel DSLR, i.e. produce fine art quality prints.  This assumes that you shoot in RAW, process your images carefully, and make use of the extended depth of field.  If you see my posts in the other thread in this forum, you'll see that I think the G10 is better than entry level DSLRs in some respects -- primarily its size and arguably its superior resolution.

That said, if your objective is to understand more about photography and not to be confused everytime you get the camera out, I would definitely go with a DSLR.  I am a very experienced photographer and digital photographer, having use view cameras extensively, a Canon 5D, and, years ago, a Canon G2.  The G10 is not easy to use well.  It is much more confusing than a DSLR where what you're doing is fairly transparent, and it's easy to check settings.  A G10 is also not an ideal learning tool because it is extremely difficult to vary depth of field and even if you want to do that there are only a few limited circumstances in which you can have a thinner depth of field, and even then it's not very thin.

If your goal is to learn more about photography, I would look into a DSLR that has a good prime lens selection.  Probably the best for smaller sized cameras and lenses right now is Pentax because of their 5 or size "limited" lenses that are especially compact.

I am amazed by the G10 for what it is, and in its areas of strength (compactness, high resolution, and a very good lens), it is especially successful.

Thanks to everyone that replied.

Your replys have been very helpful, and it has given me a lot to think about that I wouldn't have on my own.  Much appreciated.

I can safely say that I've ruled out the FZ28, and I'm heavily leaning towards the G10 (thanks to this topic and a few others on this forum at this time...).

I know some of you recommended DSLR's, however I just want to stress I'm not a proffesional, and I am just looking for a camera that'll help me to understand more about photography in the areas and styles that I mentionaed earlier without confusing the hell out me everytime I get the camera out (then when I finally get my head around it, the moments' probably gone).  For me the camera has to be P&S with great flexibility, ie compact, wide, tele, macro, low-light, video, and RAW, as it'll be my only camera.  And not to mention, my budget won't allow for a DSLR and all the extras to make it do what I want.

For these reasons I think the G10 will be a solid choice (must admit I am disappointed about not having 720p HD video rec).  I'll be ready to get one within the next month or so and can't wait!  Hopefully pricess drop a little by then too

Dan

[Eric Myrvaagnes]

Dan: I think the G10 is a fantastic camera for what it is, a great compact that when used with particular awareness of its limitations can -- at iso 80, 100, and perhaps also at 200 -- produce prints up to 18" or even in some circumstances 24" in the long dimension that can equal those from a top quality 12 megapixel DSLR, i.e. produce fine art quality prints.  This assumes that you shoot in RAW, process your images carefully, and make use of the extended depth of field.  If you see my posts in the other thread in this forum, you'll see that I think the G10 is better than entry level DSLRs in some respects -- primarily its size and arguably its superior resolution.

That said, if your objective is to understand more about photography and not to be confused everytime you get the camera out, I would definitely go with a DSLR.  I am a very experienced photographer and digital photographer, having use view cameras extensively, a Canon 5D, and, years ago, a Canon G2.  The G10 is not easy to use well.  It is much more confusing than a DSLR where what you're doing is fairly transparent, and it's easy to check settings.  A G10 is also not an ideal learning tool because it is extremely difficult to vary depth of field and even if you want to do that there are only a few limited circumstances in which you can have a thinner depth of field, and even then it's not very thin.

If your goal is to learn more about photography, I would look into a DSLR that has a good prime lens selection.  Probably the best for smaller sized cameras and lenses right now is Pentax because of their 5 or size "limited" lenses that are especially compact.

I am amazed by the G10 for what it is, and in its areas of strength (compactness, high resolution, and a very good lens), it is especially successful.

I recently bought a G10 and I love it! That being said, I think httivals is right on the mark about learning photography. I have used all sizes of film cameras from 35mm to 8x10, and my main camera now is a Canon 5D. I bought the G10 as a pocket, walk-around camera to have with me when I don't want to carry the 5D, and it is superb for that. But learning to use it well is a substantial challenge, and I agree strongly that a Pentax DSLR with one good lens (to start with) would be a much better learning tool.

[DarkPenguin]

I dunno.  A DSLR forces you to learn about DOF right away and it is harder to see your composition when looking through a viewfinder.  (At least when starting out.  Although that is easier with some of the better view finders.)  With a device like the g10 nearly everything is in focus from one angstrom to Andromeda and what you see on the back is pretty much what you'll get.  OTOF a single focal length does help one to see in that focal length.

[ndevlin]

Dear Dan W.

You're way over-thinking this.  Buy one and start shooting.

My vote is for the G10, which not only a tremendous picture-taking engine (great lens/sensor combo - they've hit some kid of sweet-spot), but also because I find it handles so well. It is responsive, fast to focus, fast to shoot, and very intuitive to control (exposure comp, modes, metering, etc).

You probably owe it to yourself to also handle the Panasonic G1 before you buy, unless you've ruled-out a camera that costs that much. It is functionally a small dslr and handles beautifully. Image quality is excellent, and it is more of a "real camera" than the G10 which is still a P&S at heart.

The G1 also offers expandability in lenses, which the G10 does not, and comes in red, blue and neon yellow duck feather-finish  

- N.

[spidermike]

Yep - I vote for the G10 or LX-3.
I know the arguemtns for a small DSLR are decent ones, but lets face it, Dan: if you really get into photography in a big way then you will want a compact and a DSLR like many here. So you may as well start down your chosen route of a compact and learn about RAW etc on your preferred camera style and expand to DSLR later. Portability is obviously important to you and you need to consider that if you do get a DSLR immediately will you take the camera out with you as often as you do at the moment - I suspect: in which case how much experiemting with RAW will you really do?
And besides with the prices of DLSRs dropping like a stone you can get a decent second hand one for a fraction of current prices in about a years time (just because better cameras will continually come along does not mean that models currently a year old are bad cameras). I don't think G10 prices will change anywhere near as much.

So get the G10, let the bug really bite, get infected with enthusiasm and then spend wisely on the DSLR later.

[NigelC]

Although DP Review do test JPegs, I would be surprised if the LX3's internal processing is that much better than the G10,s given Canon's abilities in this field, ergo it should be possible to have roughly equal effect on chroma noise in both Silkypix and DPP. I've read several other reviews that give the advantage to the LX3 at 400ASA and over - don't think there is much dispute that G10 has more resolution at 100ASA.

However, for those of us looking for a "carry always" backup to an SLR (rendering discussion of EOS1000D and E420 irrelevant) I'm prepared to accept both have a useable if not outstanding 400 ASA level, although for me, F2 and 24m is more useful than the G10's additional 60-140 range. What is really crucial is the ergonomics and for me ability to gain instant access to change shutter speed, aperture and exposure compensation, with ISO a close second. Before I had an extensive play with the LX3 and G10 side by side I assumed; a) the G10 was just as pocketable because of it's simple brick like shape ( no sticky out lens) and;  would be quicker for me to operate having used Canon SLRs/DSLRs for more years than I care to own up to. However, big surprise, I found the top dials/command dial on the G10 didn't work so well with the completely different ergonomics of using the rear LCD rather than the (useless) optical finder. The G10 needs two hands, but its not long enough, and the dials aren't quite in the right place for my hands. On the other hand the LX3 is perfect for one handed operation and the joystick enables quick changes to the important controls. Also, there is no doubt the LX3 is more pocketable. If I had to have one as my only camera it would be game set and match to the G10, but as my 5D back up I'm pretty convinced LX3 is the way to go.

[budjames]

I purchased the LX3 3 weeks ago. I love it. For the size of the G10, I might as well carry my 40D.

Bud James

[Plekto]

I'd also add the Sigma DP1 to the short list.  The sensor really blows compact cameras away and makes for very good landscape and around-town type photography.  

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sigmadp1/page20.asp
This page shows how resolution charts are worthless unless we're also comparing color.   Even 10-12MP cameras aren't as clean and free of artifacts when it comes to color images.  (I'm figuring the last gen DSLRs are roughly equal to the best compact zooms of today)

It'll make a 5*7 print that is nearly indistinguishable from 35mm film.(about 4.5x6.5 inches@400 DPI - most people don't notice.  Blown up, things start to look grainy at about 200dpi(IME).  So figure good for enlargements up to about 9x13.  Since the input if fairly clean, pixel blurring software when your printer enlarges the image(or via Photoshop) tends to make for a blurred look like film as opposed to  making the noise and moires look larger.  

Not so bad for a pocket camera.  I just with Foveon/Sigma would DO something new with their larger sensor/DSLRs.  But for a pocket camera, it's a compelling choice, even today.