HCD Lenses and Upcoming 50/60MPixel H3D-II

[lichtbild]

Hi there,

some question to the experienced people here in the forum:

I`m planning to jump onto the new H3D-II-50 Camera which will be released as far as i got informations from german hasselblad dealers in mid/end november. Are there any 'disadvantages' to be among the first 'early adopters' of new backs. What I mean we already had some issues beeing among the first movers with e.g. the initial focus problems of the canon 1d MK III and we want to be sure that the jump doen`t have the much problems like other manufactors had in the past. I know that nobody is perfect, but is there any experience from user e.g. right from the beginning ofthe H3D-II 39MPixel that there have been problems which were fixed weeks or even months later ?

I`m asking this as we`d like to take the MF on a longer trip starting in mid december until mid january and we want to be sure that this camera will work  100% (of course we take some 1ds MK III with us as backup etc.). Anyway would you recommend waiting a while or is 'normally' everything fine with new backs from hasselblad right from the start ?

Another Question:

We`d love to buy the 28 f4 HCD lens and the coming 35-90 HCD lens. We know that those lenses will fit to the H3D-II 50 but if we ever plan to buy another H3D 60Mpixel (which is announced to April/May 09) will those lenses also work on the 60 MPixel even if the sensor is bigger ? Will there be a solution for that, or is hasselblad really releasing an amazing 35-90 zomm lens without the possibilty to use it on the forthcoming 60MPixel.

I ask this as we`d like to buy this month the gear and want to insure that we might have the possibility to a) upgrade to the next 60MPixel or to add an 60 MPixel camera and it would make perfect sense to share the lenses inbetween a 50 or 60 MPixel back.

Another question is regarding Flashes. Is there a recommended Flash for the H3D-II ? I heard that a Metz Flash should be a good addition, but after reading some forum articles in other places it seams like that the H3D-II has some problems with TTL together with the new Metz 76 MZ-5. On the Metz.com website the don`t even offer a sca adapter for hasselblas ... (only canon, nikon etc.).. So what would be a good solution for an additional flash on the H3D-II.

Thanks for all your help and shared experiences!

cheers from germany,
alex

[David Grover / Capture One]

Hi Alex,

I copy this from another thread on the same subject...

The Hasselblad HCD lens line (28mm, 35-90mm zoom) has been designed to deliver outstanding lens performance (high resolution, low lens errors) on a Medium Format sensor area, in a lens design that is relative compact and light. In the process of optimizing design for all the performance criteria Hasselblad has carefully chosen its design elements with the following logic.

We have chosen a target sensor format of 36 * 49mm for the optimization of the lens performance for the HCD lens line in order to achieve a compact design with fast focusing as well as high performance. Top performance is reached even with sensors larger than 36 * 49mm. The only restriction is that a marginal crop is introduced with the HCD28 and the HCD35-90 in 35 mm setting. On a full frame 60 Mpix camera, the crop will result in an effective pixel count of 55 Mpix and a focal length factor of about 1.1. This means that the HCD28 will be equal to a 31 mm lens and the HCD35-90 will be equal to a 38-90 mm.

We have chosen to allow a level of basic optical imperfections (color aberration, distortion and vignetting) within the capability for our DAC lens corrections to handle it afterwards. We can therefore make a better design compromise and concentrate on minimizing optical errors that cannot be corrected by DAC, for example edge to edge sharpness. The results will not be as good for film use, which we therefore have excluded.

Our estimate on benefits with regards to size, weight and price are as follows: Compared to using the original full 645 film format (41.5 * 56mm) we are able to deliver a lens design that is around 30% more compact, and 30-40% less expensive.

To support the achievements of Hasselblad’s HCD lens design please compare the HCD28mm with other Medium Format lenses of the same focal length. Check the image detail and lens performance at the edges. Add to the comparison that all HC/HCD lenses include internal AF motor (fast, accurate focus), central lens shutter (flash sync at shutter speeds up to 1/800), and manual focus override. The difference in price between the HCD28 and the main competitor’s product is currently a 40% advantage for the HCD28.


I spoke to our lens designer about this and even though the difference between a 49mm sensor and the 645 format 'seems' relatively small in terms of lens construction it is a big step.

Therefore our new zoom lens would be significantly larger, heavier and much more expensive if expanded to the 645 format. So much so that its use would become unattractive and uneconomical.

You will notice though that with the 60MP sensor its effective length becomes 38-90 - the top end is not affected. Using the HCD lenses with the H3D-60 will automatically crop the image. No interaction is required by the user.


You can buy the Metz SCA adapter from us, Part No. 3053393.  There was some initial TTL problems but was fixed quite some time ago now!

Best,


David

[glennedens]

David,

This may be a dumb question but i have to ask, what is the focal length of the HCD 28mm lens when used with a 36 x 48mm sensor like the H3DII-39?  Since the multiplier is 1.1 with the H3DII-39 relative to 645 film isn't the HCD 28mm really a 30.8mm lens on the H3DII-39 in any case?  I have never been comfortable with my understanding of the HCD lens focal lengths relative to HC lenses and how they are rationalized to each other.  Is there a first customer ship date for the 35-90 HCD?

Alex,

I have had good luck with the Hasselblad upgrades being relatively problem free so I would expect the H3DII-50 to be trouble free.  I have gone from H2-CF22 to H2-CF39 to H3D39 to H3DII-39 and each transition was smooth.  The Kodak sensor in the 50 is a new design and it is possible that a new problem could come up however, the product testing seems thorough so far.  There have been a few problems here and there and so far my experience is that Hasselblad works to fix them ASAP.  We have seen a steady stream of firmware updates so far.  The ISO speed improvement and maximum exposure time firmware updates are overdue.

I have used the Metz 54 MZ 4 and the Metz 70 MZ 5 and they work fine.  The SCA adaptor is ordered from Hasselblad not Metz.  The newer Metz flashes have better color rendition than these older units.

The HCD 28 is a wonderful lens.  My most used kit is the HCD 28, HC 50-110, HC 210 and the 1.7X converter.  The 50-110 is great but huge so I am looking forward to trying the HCD 35-90.  If I need to travel lighter the kit is HCD 28, HC 100 and HC 210.  I have also found just the HCD 28 and the HC 100 with the 1.7X converter travel well and force one to think differently (there is a certain Zen-like working style with just the two lenses, much the way I used to work with 4x5 using only a 90mm and a 210mm).

Hope this is helpful and good luck with your decision.

Glenn

[David Grover / Capture One]

David,

This may be a dumb question but i have to ask, what is the focal length of the HCD 28mm lens when used with a 36 x 48mm sensor like the H3DII-39?  Since the multiplier is 1.1 with the H3DII-39 relative to 645 film isn't the HCD 28mm really a 30.8mm lens on the H3DII-39 in any case?  I have never been comfortable with my understanding of the HCD lens focal lengths relative to HC lenses and how they are rationalized to each other.  Is there a first customer ship date for the 35-90 HCD?

Hi Glenn,

Yes, you are right.  The focal length of the HCD 28 is just that 28mm on a 645 camera.  So it is probably not a very good way of explaining it that the lens becomes something else with different sensors.  It will always be 28mm!

The difference is that the image circle is based on a 48mm across sensor, making it smaller, lighter and cheaper and with the extra possibility of lens corrections.

Make sense?

David

[jing q]

Hi Glenn,

Yes, you are right.  The focal length of the HCD 28 is just that 28mm on a 645 camera.  So it is probably not a very good way of explaining it that the lens becomes something else with different sensors.  It will always be 28mm!

The difference is that the image circle is based on a 48mm across sensor, making it smaller, lighter and cheaper and with the extra possibility of lens corrections.

Make sense?

David

Hi David, does this mean that the 28mm number is derived from having already applied the focal length multiplier factor inherent in the 48mm generation of sensors?
 in comparison to let's say the Rodenstock and Schneider lens systems, and as a lens on its own (irregardless of sensor size) the 28mm is really 28mm / focal length multiplier of the back

I am aware of the limitation of the image circle but it is easier for me to comprehend it in a standard I'm familiar with.
Thus a 45mm lens on a sensor 36.7x49mm is really 45mmx1.13 = 51mm
Thus the HCD 28mm lens on a 36.7x49mm sensor is really 28 / 1.13 = 25mm?
On a 1.3 focal length multiplier sensor (like the 31 mp sensors), the focal length will be 25mm (or 24.777mm) x 1.3=32mm?

I find it abit strange that Hasselblad didn't just label it a 25mm lens rather than taking the trouble to apply the focal length multiplier which no one bothers to anyway.... I would think the wider nature of the number would be a better selling point

Correct me if I'm misunderstanding this.

[Cfranson]

Hi David, does this mean that the 28mm number is derived from having already applied the focal length multiplier factor inherent in the 48mm generation of sensors?
 in comparison to let's say the Rodenstock and Schneider lens systems, and as a lens on its own (irregardless of sensor size) the 28mm is really 28mm / focal length multiplier of the back

Focal length is a mathematical formula. It is not a number directly related to angle of coverage; that is a combination of the image format and focal length. This is no different than the relationship of a 28mm on a 35mm SLR vs. a smaller format DSLR; the angle of coverage is quite different in the two.
The HCD 28mm is a 28mm lens. It is still cropped slightly on the H3D 22/39/50 giving an effective focal length of 31.64mm when multiplied by the 1.13 factor. It's no different than any other lens.

[David Grover / Capture One]

Thanks for answering for me Chris.  

[lichtbild]

Hi Alex,

I copy this from another thread on the same subject...


Best,


David

Hi David,

thanks a LOT for this fast and long posting, that really helped us a lot. The hcd 28mm f4 together with the hc 100mm 2.2 will arrive in the office this friday :-)
so now we just have to sign the order for the 50 Body together with the sca adapter and a polarizer for the 28mm  and THEN the loooong waiting begins.... for approx. 2 weeks as far as our dealer told us.

A last question regarding battery capacity. is there already an estimate how many shots could be made with one battery pack? I think we need a spare one, too.

maybe i should write an after 'the transition' post after january  I, personally really can`t wait anymore..... yippie....

[glennedens]

Alex,

I get about 150-200 shots per battery charge (of course that is with the 39 megapixel back), i review using the rear LCD a lot so you may get more depending on your usage patterns.  i carry 4 batteries and 2 chargers when i travel.  since the charger can only charge one battery at a time a second charger is useful.  4 batteries might be excessive but i am often in remote locations and can only charge every other day or so.  I would definitely get a least one extra battery.

I also travel with 4 16GB Extreme CF cards and my rule of thumb is one battery per CF card.  

If you are going to be doing tripod work I would recommend getting the H Cable Release and the Kirk L-plate for the H-Series body.  The Kirk plate works with Arca-Swiss style heads (RRS, Arca-Swiss, etc.).  The Kirk L bracket has two attachment screws so it attaches securely to the H3 body.  I also use the H-Series soft wrist strap (i forget what it is called exactly) that fits on the grip side of the camera.  At faster shutter speeds you can handhold the H3.

I also enjoy using the waste level finder but you lose the light meter.

Glenn

[Nick-T]

A couple of things to note.
The batteries take a while to come up to full charge, maybe 3 or 4 charge/discharge cycles.
Instead of a cable release there are some very cheap radio remotes for the H series, I got one off ebay for something like 10 dollars.
Also a double tap on the mirror up button will lock the mirror then bring up the self timer function, very handy.
Setting the custom mirror delay function really helps with shooting at slower speeds. I can shoot at 1/60th hand held with the 100mm if I'm careful.

Nick-T

[glennedens]

Nick,

What are other H-Series users seeing in battery capacity?  Are my numbers typical?

Thanks,

Glenn

[Nick-T]

Nick,

What are other H-Series users seeing in battery capacity?  Are my numbers typical?

Thanks,

Glenn

Hi Glenn
Tough one to answer.. I'd say maybe a bit on the light side but there are so many variables. I shot 600 frames the other day, the first 250 of which were tethered (so much less battery drain) and the rest untethered. One grip lasted almost the whole day (swapped it for the last 30 or so frames).
You could always ask the question here:http://www.hasselbladdigitalforum.com

Nick-T

[glennedens]

Thanks Nick, I keep forgetting about the other forum,

Glenn

[jecxz]

Thanks Nick, I keep forgetting about the other forum,

Glenn

Definitely head over to hasselbladdigitalforum.com - but to add to this, I'm getting about 150 shots per battery on my H3DII39 outdoors in about 60F temperature. In colder it is much less. Now I change the battery at about 30% to avoid any read/write errors on the CF card, good advice from a post by another user.

Kind regards,
Derek

[Nick-T]

Definitely head over to hasselbladdigitalforum.com - but to add to this, I'm getting about 150 shots per battery on my H3DII39 outdoors in about 60F temperature. In colder it is much less. Now I change the battery at about 30% to avoid any read/write errors on the CF card, good advice from a post by another user.

Kind regards,
Derek

Hey Derek
Can't remember if I mentioned it before but Hasselblad have come up with a mains powered grip (essentially a grip with some electronics and a socket for a lead). At 'kina we discussed the possibility of adapting this so that the lead ran to a regular grip battery that could be kept in a pocket for cold weather shooting, sound like a good idea?

Nick-T

[glennedens]

That would be a great idea.  I just finished teaching a workshop in the Eastern Sierra's here in California and it got really cold.  Batteries do not like cold weather (it was about 22 degrees at dawn) so being able to baby the battery in a pocket would be great.  Of course this will cause many more accidents as one walks away and forgets that one is "tethered".  A warm pouch that straps to a tripod leg might also be useful.

The weather started out so good it was boring, no sky action.  Things changed quickly as two storms rolled in with rain and snow.

Glenn

[jecxz]

Hey Derek
Can't remember if I mentioned it before but Hasselblad have come up with a mains powered grip (essentially a grip with some electronics and a socket for a lead). At 'kina we discussed the possibility of adapting this so that the lead ran to a regular grip battery that could be kept in a pocket for cold weather shooting, sound like a good idea?

Nick-T

Yes! definitely. I am not sure I understand completely. If the battery is in my pocket what would be the grip? What electronics?

Now that I think about it, very bad idea. Why? Because a lead to my pocket to the H on the tripod could eventually lead to me walking away and and pulling it down. $23K camera and $4K lens crashing to the ground is not good. No - bad idea, I will not purchase this.

I suggest that they make a longer battery that has extra power - not sure how many they would sell, really, how many H landscape shooters are there? But if there is a market for this longer battery, I'd buy a few.

Sorry for the flip-flop (not the shoe).

Kind regards,
Derek

[smhoer]

Maybe a chemical hotpad rubber banded to the battery grip?

[hubell]

Nick,

What are other H-Series users seeing in battery capacity?  Are my numbers typical?

Thanks,

Glenn

Glenn:
I shot around 200 frames over the past weekend in Vermont with a single battery on an H3D. Sixty frames on Saturday in 45 degree weather. The other 120 frames at 28-35 degrees early on Sunday morning.
Nick is(as usual) quite correct that new batteries do seem to develop more capacity after going through 3-4 charge-discharge cycles.

[Dustbak]

I can shoot at 1/60th hand held with the 100mm if I'm careful.

Nick-T

I can shoot hand held at 1/25th with good results but that might have something to do with shooting in a dark space with a flash that has an extremely short flash-duration

I agree with the L-Bracket, either RRS or Kirk. You should get one of those, mine never leave the body.

I am horrified to hear those battery numbers. I use a CF with a (soon to be) H2(F), the grip lasts me several days and with the huge 4800Mah block I can shoot at least a whole day. I am always amazed how long those things last.

Maybe Hasselblad should bring back the option of using 2 batteries again, one for the body & one for the back so you can choose what to use. Downside is you have to have 2 chargers and different batteries again though the ones for the back are pretty cheap.