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teddillard

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« Reply #20 on: October 30, 2008, 04:43:53 pm »

Quote from: Schewe
Then I would argue you don't understand the problem. OpenRaw.org has their collective heads in the sand and are trying to force the camera makers to open up and document something that the makers are disinclined to do. They are far more likely to adopt DNG as an alternative than lift the kimono entirely. Add to that the fact that Adobe is taking steps to mitigate the camera makers' remaining objections to DNG like offering DNG to the ISO as the basis of the next TIFF-EP format update *which is what almost all of the current proprietary raw file formats is based on except Foveon, and adopting the DNG Profile schema to address color rendering looks and I think that the walls blocking will eventually come tumbling down.

Look, we NEED a standardized and normalized raw file format whose documentation is open and that allows for private maker notes to remain private. OpenRaw.org doesn't get that...that's why DNG is so important to the industry, not sure why YOU don't get that?


You know, I went back an re-read your post, and the truth is I agree with that too.  I agree that the relationship between Adobe and their DNG initiative and the camera manufacturers HAS to be developed, and if they are able to reach some relationship where I have a choice to shoot a DNG on my camera that allows me all the advantages of the manufacturer files, WITH the advantages of DNG, it would be a wonderful world.  We do need it, and I truly believe that it's inevitable.  

If that was your point, we're in total agreement.  (It wasn't however, quite what we were talking about...)

If you're saying I don't know what I'm talking about because I don't convert to DNG, well that's a different matter.  If you're saying I'm giving bad advice by suggesting someone should read what has been a fairly active community has to say on the matter, then that's your opinion.  

I am going home and drinking now.  
« Last Edit: October 30, 2008, 06:06:45 pm by teddillard »
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teddillard

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« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2008, 04:46:55 pm »

Quote from: Schewe
It really is much more simple than many make it. The camera makers have struggled mightily to deal with digital photography. The Nikon/Canon/Kodak triad broke down and both Nikon and then Canon rushed into this with little or no expertise. Nikon took the dubious position of calling THIER raw file format NEF, which was an incredibly stupid thing to do because Nikon already had a non-raw file format from their scanners of the same extension. Canon flailed around first with CRW, then TIF (how stupid was that-open an early 1Ds file without Camera Raw-it opens the EXIF JPEG and if you hit save, it overwrites the original raw file). So, they both have screwed up royally. They had to adopt TIFF-EP to get their heads out of their arses...which if you know TIFF-EP (and ISO standard that Adobe gave the right to use TIFF 6 for) and finally, later NEF and CR2 files were better formed. So, the software divisions of the camera companies resorted to all sorts of gyrations to keep control over their less faulty formats my claiming only Nikon can possibly know how to process a Nikon file (same with Canon only Canon wisely chose not to try to sell software).

So, along comes an upstart Adobe, teaching Nikon and Canon a thing or two about how to write and specify file formats (something Adobe has a lot of experience with and the camera makers none) and they have the gaul to write a piece of software (Camera Raw) that not only works on NEF & CR2 files but opens almost 200 DIFFERENT raw file formats. It's a pain so Thomas Knoll decides the industry needs a standardized raw file container format, DNG.

The ludites at OpenRaw.org decided that simple standardizing on a container format isn't good enough to the dummies go on a rampage denigrating DNG (and playing right into the camera makers hands). Course, then Nikon screwed up an accidently encrypted the white balance data on a new camera (yes, it was encrypted, yes it was "accidental" as in incompetent further proof that the container format for raw files should NOT be in the hands of the camera makers).

So, here we are in 2008 and there are STILL photographers who for one reason or another (generally FUD based) still think it's ok for the camera makers to cling to their undocumented, proprietary raw file formats, than only Nikon and Canon could possible know how to open their own files in an optimal manner and somehow don't understand just how critical it is that the "raw file format" needs to be standardized ASAP if you care at all about the long term preservation and conservation of digital photographs.

It's simple, the industry is currently at risk because Nikon and Canon have not been forced to the standards table by people who are too willing to accept the Kool-Aid spewed by the camera makers and their advocates...

So, yeah, I take a very dim view of any photographer that isn't pro DNG anti-proprietary raw file formats. And the people in OpenRaw.org seem to have their own agenda to try to strip the raw file formats secrecy rather than standardizing the way that whatever proprietary data is stored in a standardized way.

If you have ANY doubt that the way it is now is indeed risky, read this: Digital Preservation. The problem is real and pressing. No, not now or next year but the longer it goes before being addressed, the bigger the problem will be.

So, yeah, I see it as very simple. Letting Nikon and Canon get away with not standardizing is NOT in the best interest of photographers. I don't have any sympathy for anybody who would quibble on that point. Yes, it's useful to read and learn, but the way it currently is in the industry is not good for us, and that's not a debatable point. How do we fix it? Refuse to tolerate Nikon and Canon's current behavior, accept the realities that Nikon and Canon do need to have private maker notes (something OpenRaw.org rejects) and that we need to arrive at a standardized and safe container for raw digital capture. And personally, I can't think of a better or more experienced person (decoding about 200 raw formats already) than Thomas Knoll. While Adobe is a for-profit corporation, if you knew the inside story you would realize that the primary reason Adobe is doing DNG is because Thomas thinks it's a good idea. That's really about it. That's Adobe's agenda...


I 100% agree, Jeff.  (again, though...  not what the question was asking)

NOW I'm drinking.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2008, 06:35:14 pm by teddillard »
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Schewe

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« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2008, 05:43:36 pm »

Quote from: pom
A great asset to Adobe's customer relations.


Just to be perfectly clear (so you don't make the mistake of thinking Adobe has some say over what I think or say) I don't work for Adobe...I have on occasion worked WITH Adobe on projects. But Adobe has diddly-squat control over me. So, if you presume that anything I do or say has anything thing to do with Adobe, their employees or their policies, then you should disabuse yourself of that misconception. Adobe is in no way responsible for (nor can they control) anything I say or do. The blame (or credit) is mine alone. Got that?
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Mike Arst

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« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2008, 11:39:38 pm »

Quote from: Schewe
Letting Nikon and Canon get away with not standardizing is NOT in the best interest of photographers. [...] Yes, it's useful to read and learn, but the way it currently is in the industry is not good for us, and that's not a debatable point. How do we fix it? Refuse to tolerate Nikon and Canon's current behavior...
From the first moment I heard about DNG format I was relieved -- finally, someone took a real-world step toward standardization.

I'm interested to hear more about translating refuse to tolerate Nikon and Canon's current behavior into something that actually gets their attention. I'm sure they're well aware of consumer frustration about the endless proliferation of raw formats, with the formats seeming to change at least a little bit with each new camera model (why do they change the formats every time? Does anyone know?).

But never mind if they're aware of the frustration. It doesn't seem to matter -- it doesn't likely affect sales. One example: Michael Reichmann and other well respected reviewers have been forceful, for quite a while now, in pointing out the irritating MLU design strategy in some cameras. It's just stupid, what they've done with those menu-based MLU controls -- but, model after model: no change. (I saw a Canon official state flat-out, in a photo forum, that due to design limitations Canon "can't" change this aspect of the system. Oh, hogwash. When they redesign a camera system from the ground up, they can do whatever they want. That "can't" was nonsense. It isn't "can't"; it's "won't" -- likewise, what the manufacturers do with their raw formats.)

So well known reviewers expressing sensible opinions about bad design -- opinions shared by a lot of other people -- isn't sufficient. Market pressure is probably the only way to get the necessary changes made. But what market pressure would it be? Will people with big investments in Canon or Nikon gear stop updating their gear, or dump an entire line and buy into another manufacturer's line, simply over raw-format issues? It seems unlikely. People have just had to live with these file-format problems (and are glad to have DNG in the absence of other solutions).

So...what would get the manufacturers to pay attention, once and for all?
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Schewe

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« Reply #24 on: November 02, 2008, 12:13:33 am »

Quote from: Mike Arst
So...what would get the manufacturers to pay attention, once and for all?


The single biggest thing we can all do as photographers, is talk to the camera makers with a single voice...that the proliferation of undocumented and proprietary raw files formats is bad for photographers and bad for the photographic industry. As you can see by this thread, not all photographers see the problems...look over at the wasteland that is DPReview and you've got photographers fighting with other photographers saying that it's the camera maker's RIGHT to create their own undocumented file formats and that to standardize would stifle the development of new technologies (which is completely untrue).

So unless we as an industry speak with one voice to let the camera makers we don;t want them to continue in their current behavior, they'll have little incentive to change their behavior.

Adobe also has to do their job...as they promised that they would, they've presented DNG for consideration to the ISO for their upcoming TIFF-EP (that's tiff–which Adobe already owns and let's the ISO use–and electronic photography) revision. Unfortunately, that will take time cause standards bodies move at a glacial pace (with some good reasons, sometimes).

DNG also has to continue to advance and take down the barriers that the camera makers use to attach it on a technical basis. The recent DNG 1.2 spec and the inclusions of DNG Profiles are really pretty big news on that front. Camera makers that have complained about Camera Raw's color rendering should be pleasantly surprised (and maybe disappointed) that Adobe can now provide a colormetric simulation of their camera "looks". That has been a long standing issue that both Nikon and Canon have clung to. The next stage would be to implement maker note based lens correction capability. Course, there's no real standard for how to store lens correction data (perhaps the next TIFF-EP will address that).

But one can only do what one can do. The biggest thing would be for all photographers to be able to agree that the current situation sucks and something should be done about it. We need to collectively quit drinking the camera makers' Kool-Aid.

Personally, I don't advocate any sort of economic sanction or boycott because I seriously doubt it could work. There are brand loyalties and professional needs that will override one's desire to ability to resist buying something you need...but a constant advocacy of standard will eventually reach them over time (and when any political and technical barriers are removed).

I don't think we're at a tipping point yet...to much change too quickly and the camera makers are running full out to produce new cameras, but that will slow. When it does, aspects of competition will alter the landscape...can you image the pressure on Nikon (who does sell software) if Canon offered DNG as an option and photographers saw that as a technical plus?

It'll take time, for sure, but it must happen.
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Mike Arst

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« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2008, 01:26:33 am »

Quote from: Schewe
...the proliferation of undocumented and proprietary raw files formats is bad for photographers and bad for the photographic industry.
It certainly must give fits to people who have to maintain large digital archives in a variety of formats.

> look over at the wasteland that is DPReview and you've got photographers fighting with other photographers saying that it's the camera maker's RIGHT to create their own undocumented file formats and that to standardize would stifle the development of new technologies (which is completely untrue).

I suppose that sort of contention is useful in a DPreview food-fight, but does anyone ever back it up by specifying (or even just speculating about) what "new technology" is known to be supported by or enhanced by endless "churn" in RAW file formats?

Is there something in the Secret Sauce portion of these files that could conceivably provide clues to other manufacturers about, say, how a sensor is constructed, or about how a given camera's embedded software is encoded? The manufacturers must all feel there is some advantage to this constant churn -- some advantage that justifies the cost of the unending RAW-format development. Coding being expensive, the cost must be considerable.

> So unless we as an industry speak with one voice to let the camera makers we don;t want them to continue in their current behavior, they'll have little incentive to change their behavior.

But I wonder if they will perceive any need to change in the absence of any clear economic penalty -- adverse consumer reaction, that is -- for keeping on as they have been. If there were some particular organization, magazine (or whatever else) that could grab their attention, which one would it be?

> Camera makers that have complained about Camera Raw's color rendering should be pleasantly surprised (and maybe disappointed) that Adobe can now provide a colormetric simulation of their camera "looks". That has been a long standing issue that both Nikon and Canon have clung to.

Interesting criticism by the manufacturers, given that it's conceivable that you could do a reasonably good job with a lot of different RAW converters -- and easily possible to do a lousy job with the manufacturers' own software, no matter how good the manufacturers think the programs are. It ain't quite like film, eh? I might not be able to start with a bland sort of RAW image and then simulate perfectly some particular film -- but I might be able to come close given the right software and enough skill. So what would be this "look" they think their files have, I wonder.

> Personally, I don't advocate any sort of economic sanction or boycott because I seriously doubt it could work. There are brand loyalties and professional needs that will override one's desire to ability to resist buying something you need

Once every now and then some hothead on That Other Forum will advocate a big-ol' boycott of one of the manufacturers. Can't imagine anyone would take him up on it.

> I don't think we're at a tipping point yet...to much change too quickly and the camera makers are running full out to produce new cameras, but that will slow. When it does, aspects of competition will alter the landscape...can you image the pressure on Nikon (who does sell software) if Canon offered DNG as an option and photographers saw that as a technical plus?

I've often wondered what would happen if one of those companies were to pull off a big surprise, such as "natively" supporting DNG (within the camera itself) or at least within its raw converter. Yes, that'd probably get the other guys to pay attention in short order.
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teddillard

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« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2008, 06:29:33 am »

Quote from: Mike Arst
Is there something in the Secret Sauce portion of these files that could conceivably provide clues to other manufacturers about, say, how a sensor is constructed, or about how a given camera's embedded software is encoded? The manufacturers must all feel there is some advantage to this constant churn -- some advantage that justifies the cost of the unending RAW-format development. Coding being expensive, the cost must be considerable.

That is the argument...  however, there's always the point that the chips are standard products made by 3rd parties whose specs are open and accessible.  Maybe that's it...  maybe that's precisely why, since everyone's got access to the same chips the way the process it is the key, but I don't buy it.

I've personally seen some of this with the older Imacon, and now the Hasselblad raw files.  The way that worked was, if you shot to the CF card of that DB, it captured in DNG.  The approved workflow was to download to the system through the DB and the software, in the process converting to the proprietary RAW file (FFF).  This allowed the software to take the DNG data and add the chip data.  On the back itself (accessible via a couple service codes) and also in the reference folders of the software, were camera ID files that specified the distinct parameters of that DB and chip.  (Sometimes when we had service issues the trick was to rebuild that file from the reference file on the camera firmware.)

The evidence for that was the just plain awful rendering that PS did with those DNG files.  Well, I thought it was.  Now I'm wondering if it was just other basic data like camera "profiling" and white point etc, that wasn't getting set in the DNG file in a way that ACR could read it.  That, I suppose, could be in the maker notes, and left out of the standard readable metadata by Imacon.  Whatever.  

The point I always come back to with the OEM argument that they have remarkable special data that they aren't going to release is show me the beef.  I've spent a great deal of time looking at the differences between Nikon, Canon and Adobe RAW processing (and have looked, not recently mind you, but looked, at and compared the quality factors of virtually every other processor out there).  I've not seen any particular overwhelming thing that justifies this proprietary attitude.  MAYBE Nikon's rendering low-light noise, but please.  My conclusion has pretty much always been that they don't have anything on any other package that processes their files.  

But Adobe has allowed for this in the DNG structure.  They allow for the maker notes, if Nikon wants to write proprietary data into the DNG file, there's a place to do it.  (Actually, that begs the question, does Pentax and Leica have maker notes in their DNG files that anyone's aware of?  Does their software process the files differently because of those notes?)  

Again, where's the beef?  The camera manufacturer software was so bad that a few companies, Phase in particular, has made a business replacing it.  If the camera OEM guys could make a package that was the standard of the industry, as Adobe is, and could go toe-to-toe with Adobe or even produce some brilliant innovations like Iridient or others, that would be one thing.  My personal experience is they can't.  They can barely keep up.  Granted, now it seems like most of them are pretty workable and mature, but that is because of, not in spite of, Adobe and Phase kicking them in the head.  

So yes, I have the tattoo.  (no you can't see it).  DNG is a remarkable initiative, and it's interesting to me that Jeff say's it's Knoll's initiative, that's the first thing I've heard that makes sense about why they're spending resources on it.  (All I'd heard was marketing hoo-haa from the product managers...)  I think it's a thing that would be good for Photography.  I seriously doubt, as I've said before, that it's not inevitable, actually, but that's because I have faith that photographers will demand it, and I echo the need for a unified voice in that regard.

That said, I teach workflow.  I will stand by my advice given to the OP.  At some point, or even as a current habit, it's a good idea to convert to DNG.  I am still trying to work out the "other advantages" in specifically workflow and beyond archiving, others talk about, thus my other thread...
« Last Edit: November 02, 2008, 06:41:46 am by teddillard »
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Mike Arst

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« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2008, 08:08:37 am »

Quote from: teddillard
That is the argument... however, there's always the point that the chips are standard products made by 3rd parties whose specs are open and accessible.
This is true of Canon as well? I have always heard that Canon rolls their own sensors. If so, I would be surprised if the specs are freely available. For that matter, if Nikon has some other manufacturer (Sony?) make its sensors for, say, the D3 and D700, I would be surprised if their arrangement with that manufacturer includes making the sensor specs available. After all, they have paid through the nose for the technology and the manufacturing...

> The point I always come back to with the OEM argument that they have remarkable special data that they aren't going to release is show me the beef.

If it were to turn out that they don't have any especially interesting Secret Sauce in their RAW files, I would think they'd lose some face by admitting it. And if there's nothing terribly interesting in there after all, why ever bother encrypting data such as white-balance information? Then again, if there's all manner of interesting stuff in there, they aren't likely to provide the information. Either way, it remains proprietary.

> (Actually, that begs the question, does Pentax and Leica have maker notes in their DNG files that anyone's aware of? Does their software process the files differently because of those notes?)

If all RAW converters used the same kinds of algorithms for most of what they do, maybe we'd have a shot at reasonably "scientific" comparisons. But the silly things are so different from one another, and I can't begin to imagine how anyone can make such a comparison. I've seen a bunch of them on the web at various times -- and I can't form any conclusion about the results. No two sets of "test" results look much alike, and participants in those discussions don't all have the same reactions to the results, either. One converter will do a better job than others at rendering fine image detail accurately. Another will do a better job at noise reduction. Another will have a superior set of controls for adjusting dynamic range. Some folks claim passionately that Nikon Capture NX is the only decent converter for .NEF files. Others say Bah, Humbug to that (odd!) program: they get what they need from Lightroom or ACR. Yadda yadda yadda. So "who's winning"?

> I have faith that photographers will demand [a standardized file format], and I echo the need for a unified voice in that regard.

Again my question: what form of the demand will get and keep the manufacturers' attention?

> That said, I teach workflow. I will stand by my advice given to the OP. At some point, or even as a current habit, it's a good idea to convert to DNG.

I should probably get back into doing that. (I sure would love it if someone would devise a better command-line tool for it than Adobe's afterthought-ish CLI for its DNG converter.)

> So yes, I have the tattoo. (no you can't see it).

And here I was just in Boston. Had I but known, I could've knocked on your door and demanded a look. Drat. I just hate it when this happens.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2008, 08:10:48 am by Mike Arst »
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teddillard

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« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2008, 10:08:59 am »

Quote from: Mike Arst
Again my question: what form of the demand will get and keep the manufacturers' attention?


> So yes, I have the tattoo. (no you can't see it).

And here I was just in Boston. Had I but known, I could've knocked on your door and demanded a look. Drat. I just hate it when this happens.


I was thinking a lot about this issue this morning.  It's that old 4 letter word, CASH.  You figure some way to make these guys realize that it would generate sales by offering this feature, and they'll override the engineers' egos and the marketing guys' branding and make it happen, and these guys can spin better'n , well, you know who when it comes to flip-flopping on a stance.  (I mean, for god sake.  Hasselblad, my entire adult life built a cult around square format, mechanical cameras with Zeiss optics and then they scrap that and offer a 645 electronic camera with Fuji optics and don't skip a beat.  I don't worry about their skills in that dept. )

So that, to me is the question.  Show them that they can take a DNG-shooting camera to the bank, and you've done it.  And you only have to do it with either Canon or Nikon, too, because if one does it, and it makes numbers, then the other one will too.  

I have half a mind to start a petition saying I'll buy a Canon if it shoots DNG.  I just read a nice interview with the Pres. of Canon, and he just about said it...  they try to offer what the market demands, and why wouldn't they?  Has anyone started something like that?  Is there a DNG movement group somewhere I don't know about?

I was WONDERING what I'd do with my FB page after the election...  heh.

As for the tattoo, here's all I'm gonna show you.

[attachment=9394:6560042_...0_745531.jpg]
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Mike Arst

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« Reply #29 on: November 02, 2008, 04:02:53 pm »

[!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=teddillard)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE (teddillard)[div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]You figure some way to make these guys realize that it would generate sales by offering this feature[/quote]
I imagine that the ability to shoot DNG -- and immediately afterward use Adobe's (or whoever else's) DNG profiling feature for greater color accuracy out of the box -- could be a "plus" for marketing. "Could" rather than "would." What percentage of Nikon's or Canon's market cares about this kind of thing to begin with? A relatively small group of RAW shooters (however passionate) won't move these guys. IAC, let it begin and I expect the other major companies would follow, if only to keep up bragging-rights-wise. So: how do you show 'em? What you heard during the interview with Canon's president seems like a good sign.

(DNG profiling -- not that I know the first thing about it. Hell, I'm still back in the Neolithic (PS CS2; the DNG profiling requires at least CS3, right? CS4?)

> Is there a DNG movement group somewhere I don't know about?

There's probably an energetic cadre of DNG enthusiasts somewhere within Adobe, at the least. :-)

> As for the tattoo, here's all I'm gonna show you.

Ok, then. I'll take what I can get.
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teddillard

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« Reply #30 on: November 02, 2008, 06:02:30 pm »

Quote from: Mike Arst
I imagine that the ability to shoot DNG -- and immediately afterward use Adobe's (or whoever else's) DNG profiling feature for greater color accuracy out of the box -- could be a "plus" for marketing. "Could" rather than "would." What percentage of Nikon's or Canon's market cares about this kind of thing to begin with? A relatively small group of RAW shooters (however passionate) won't move these guys. IAC, let it begin and I expect the other major companies would follow, if only to keep up bragging-rights-wise. So: how do you show 'em? What you heard during the interview with Canon's president seems like a good sign.

(DNG profiling -- not that I know the first thing about it. Hell, I'm still back in the Neolithic (PS CS2; the DNG profiling requires at least CS3, right? CS4?)

> Is there a DNG movement group somewhere I don't know about?

There's probably an energetic cadre of DNG enthusiasts somewhere within Adobe, at the least. :-)

> As for the tattoo, here's all I'm gonna show you.

Ok, then. I'll take what I can get.

how bout one of my students' tattoos?  
(these kids are hardcore i tell ya.  i'm like, woah, its a nikon, she's like, dood, it's an F3)

[attachment=9420:n1425224...0_731774.jpg]
« Last Edit: November 02, 2008, 06:04:17 pm by teddillard »
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« Reply #31 on: November 02, 2008, 06:06:29 pm »

Quote from: Mike Arst
I imagine that the ability to shoot DNG -- and immediately afterward use Adobe's (or whoever else's) DNG profiling feature for greater color accuracy out of the box -- could be a "plus" for marketing. "Could" rather than "would." What percentage of Nikon's or Canon's market cares about this kind of thing to begin with? A relatively small group of RAW shooters (however passionate) won't move these guys. IAC, let it begin and I expect the other major companies would follow, if only to keep up bragging-rights-wise. So: how do you show 'em? What you heard during the interview with Canon's president seems like a good sign.

The other thing...  how hard could it be?  Seriously.  Nikon D1s used to shoot TIFF.  What is the big deal?
« Last Edit: November 02, 2008, 06:06:49 pm by teddillard »
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Schewe

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« Reply #32 on: November 02, 2008, 06:34:43 pm »

Quote from: teddillard
The other thing...  how hard could it be?  Seriously.  Nikon D1s used to shoot TIFF.  What is the big deal?


According to Thomas (who should know) with the current Nikon & Canon cameras, their NEF/CR2 files are SO CLOSE TO DNG, that they could prolly turn the DNG option on with a camera firmware update. No, it ain't hard at all, they just don't "feel like" doing it.
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Mike Arst

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« Reply #33 on: November 02, 2008, 06:48:25 pm »

Quote from: teddillard
how bout one of my students' tattoos?  
(these kids are hardcore i tell ya.  i'm like, woah, its a nikon, she's like, dood, it's an F3)
Better her than me. I draw the line at physical pain for camera-adoration's sake...just affording the silly things is painful enough.
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teddillard

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« Reply #34 on: November 02, 2008, 07:44:31 pm »

ok dammit schewe you got me all fired up about this again.  

I want to make a petition here, on LL. I see there's been one circulating, since 04, but it seems like it's dead and who knows what they did with it.  You want to draft it?
« Last Edit: November 02, 2008, 07:46:28 pm by teddillard »
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Schewe

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« Reply #35 on: November 02, 2008, 08:49:17 pm »

Quote from: teddillard
You want to draft it?


No, my political interests to work on behalf of the photo industry quit when I retied as the national president of the APA in the 1990s. I'm more interested in work back channel and to the extent that I can, teaching and writing about it. I'll let the youngsters in the industry do something for a change :~)
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Michael Bailey

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« Reply #36 on: November 02, 2008, 10:24:21 pm »

Can I throw in an answer to the original question? I used the S-2 for a few years and had very good luck with the DNG conversion. Why?

     I can't tell DNG apart from the original RAF.
     The files are much smaller then the RAF. (I don't know why, but Fuji raw files are a lot bigger than the other manufacturers'.)
     If you've already edited your RAFs, the DNGs will reflect those settings.
     The conversion runs easily in the background while you do other stuff.

Also, if you convert your files, you will have made yourself a backup of sorts, so you can separate out the two types for safe keeping.

MB
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teddillard

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« Reply #37 on: November 03, 2008, 05:22:29 am »

Quote from: Schewe
No, my political interests to work on behalf of the photo industry quit when I retied as the national president of the APA in the 1990s. I'm more interested in work back channel and to the extent that I can, teaching and writing about it. I'll let the youngsters in the industry do something for a change :~)

OK then but I don't want to hear any crap if you don't like the copy.  

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Ted Dillard

teddillard

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« Reply #38 on: November 03, 2008, 05:24:09 am »

Quote from: Michael Bailey
Can I throw in an answer to the original question? I used the S-2 for a few years and had very good luck with the DNG conversion. Why?

     I can't tell DNG apart from the original RAF.
     The files are much smaller then the RAF. (I don't know why, but Fuji raw files are a lot bigger than the other manufacturers'.)
     If you've already edited your RAFs, the DNGs will reflect those settings.
     The conversion runs easily in the background while you do other stuff.

Also, if you convert your files, you will have made yourself a backup of sorts, so you can separate out the two types for safe keeping.

MB

great to know!

(how DARE you keep us on thread!!?!    )
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Ted Dillard

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« Reply #39 on: November 03, 2008, 06:23:02 am »

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Ted Dillard
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