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Author Topic: Output sharpening vrs. Capture sharpending??  (Read 4996 times)

duraace

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Output sharpening vrs. Capture sharpending??
« on: October 24, 2008, 12:21:40 pm »

I just finished watching a video podcast by Michael Rather who demonstrated that optimally sharpening a raw image inside LR and then applying an output sharpening in either export or print, results in "over sharpening".  Logically, if something you're looking at on your monitor has been sharpened in the Develop module, why would you apply further sharpening in Export for someone else who will be looking at your image on their monitor!?!?
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Schewe

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Output sharpening vrs. Capture sharpending??
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2008, 12:35:14 pm »

Quote from: duraace
Logically, if something you're looking at on your monitor has been sharpened in the Develop module, why would you apply further sharpening in Export for someone else who will be looking at your image on their monitor!?!?

Capture sharpening is for regaining the sharpness lost during the turning of a continuous tone reality into a set of pixels via an optical system such as camera, lens and Bayer pattern array plus demosaicng. The idea being to achieve a good "just sharp" image in Develop.

However, the process of resizing and/pr resampling and taking those pixels and turning them into droplets spit out of an inkjet also re-introduces a softening effect. The problem is, it depends on the pixel density, the type of dither the engine uses and the media that you are using. So, unless you do an additional round of sharpening just prior to the actual sending of the data to the driver, you'll end up with suboptimal results.

I don't know this "Michael Rather" and have not seen this video (I would be happy to look at it if you send a link) but the odds are, either you are misunderstanding something or he's simply wrong. Might be interesting to figure out which it is.
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duraace

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Output sharpening vrs. Capture sharpending??
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2008, 01:36:25 pm »

Quote from: Schewe
Capture sharpening is for regaining the sharpness lost during the turning of a continuous tone reality into a set of pixels via an optical system such as camera, lens and Bayer pattern array plus demosaicng. The idea being to achieve a good "just sharp" image in Develop.

However, the process of resizing and/pr resampling and taking those pixels and turning them into droplets spit out of an inkjet also re-introduces a softening effect. The problem is, it depends on the pixel density, the type of dither the engine uses and the media that you are using. So, unless you do an additional round of sharpening just prior to the actual sending of the data to the driver, you'll end up with suboptimal results.

I don't know this "Michael Rather" and have not seen this video (I would be happy to look at it if you send a link) but the odds are, either you are misunderstanding something or he's simply wrong. Might be interesting to figure out which it is.

Thanks!  The "just sharp" explanation makes sense (i.e. never go beyond "just sharp" at this stage in raw capture mode) and the droplet print explanation makes sense.  It would be GREAT if you could look at Michael Rather's pod cast.  Don't know how to get the link, but in the iTunes store it's under:
Lightroom for digital photography - Michael Rather - latest episode - "How to prevent double sharpening your images"
It seems he's saying - don't do both (i.e. capture and output) He provides side by side examples.
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Richowens

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Schewe

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Output sharpening vrs. Capture sharpending??
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2008, 02:31:03 pm »

Quote from: duraace
It seems he's saying - don't do both (i.e. capture and output) He provides side by side examples.

It would be useful if Michael Rather had half a clue about what he was talking about. Yes, if you OVER SHARPEN in Develop and then use HIGH for the output sharpening you certainly can end up with an over sharpened results...DOH. Misusing ANY tool in Lightroom can screw up your image, not just sharpening.

What this alleged "expert" seems to fail to grasp is HOW to use the capture sharpening and output sharpening properly. You don't do a side by side comparison at 1:1 to make any useful determinations...you need to actually MAKE A FRIGGIN' PRINT. (output sharpening is designed not to look at on screen but after you make a print. That's the ONLY reliable method of judging the results)

I suppose I could point out Bruce Fraser's original article outlining the concept of a sharpening workflow but I'm not convinced that Michael Rather would understand the concepts. Suffice to say that Bruce's concepts are what's embodied now in Lightroom. And if Michael Rather is trying to do video tutorials to teach OTHER people how to use Lightroom, it would behoove him snuck up on getting a clue. Cause, at the moment, nothing in this video indicates that he does.

Bottom line? Seriously, don't pay any attention to the man behind _THAT_ curtain...(he really, really doesn't understand what he's talking about.

Ah heck, ok...here's Bruce's original article...
Thoughts on a Sharpening Worlflow by Bruce Fraser
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duraace

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Output sharpening vrs. Capture sharpending??
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2008, 02:50:51 pm »

Quote from: Schewe
It would be useful if Michael Rather had half a clue about what he was talking about. Yes, if you OVER SHARPEN in Develop and then use HIGH for the output sharpening you certainly can end up with an over sharpened results...DOH. Misusing ANY tool in Lightroom can screw up your image, not just sharpening.

What this alleged "expert" seems to fail to grasp is HOW to use the capture sharpening and output sharpening properly. You don't do a side by side comparison at 1:1 to make any useful determinations...you need to actually MAKE A FRIGGIN' PRINT. (output sharpening is designed not to look at on screen but after you make a print. That's the ONLY reliable method of judging the results)

I suppose I could point out Bruce Fraser's original article outlining the concept of a sharpening workflow but I'm not convinced that Michael Rather would understand the concepts. Suffice to say that Bruce's concepts are what's embodied now in Lightroom. And if Michael Rather is trying to do video tutorials to teach OTHER people how to use Lightroom, it would behoove him snuck up on getting a clue. Cause, at the moment, nothing in this video indicates that he does.

Bottom line? Seriously, don't pay any attention to the man behind _THAT_ curtain...(he really, really doesn't understand what he's talking about.

Ah heck, ok...here's Bruce's original article...
Thoughts on a Sharpening Worlflow by Bruce Fraser


Thanks Jeff.  I understand the work flow with respect to capture sharpening (keeping that at a "JUST SHARP" level) and output sharpening as it relates to ink on paper as a final result (I saw your video LR 2 on printing and the "tip" on upresing). So output sharpening on Export then relates to resizing?
« Last Edit: October 24, 2008, 02:51:24 pm by duraace »
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Schewe

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Output sharpening vrs. Capture sharpending??
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2008, 02:56:53 pm »

Quote from: duraace
So output sharpening on Export then relates to resizing?


No, it's an extension of the Output Sharpening concepts with the exported image presumed to be the final output prior to printing from some other environment besides Lightroom. If you are exporting an image from Lightroom for purposes OTHER than output, I wouldn't generally suggest using sharpening on output since not knowing where and how and at what size an image may or may not be output indicates that sharpening for output is premature...

The output sharpening for Screen is a different matter.
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duraace

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Output sharpening vrs. Capture sharpending??
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2008, 03:59:05 pm »

Quote from: Schewe
No, it's an extension of the Output Sharpening concepts with the exported image presumed to be the final output prior to printing from some other environment besides Lightroom. If you are exporting an image from Lightroom for purposes OTHER than output, I wouldn't generally suggest using sharpening on output since not knowing where and how and at what size an image may or may not be output indicates that sharpening for output is premature...

The output sharpening for Screen is a different matter.

Ooops ...  I meant output sharpening for Screen.  Sounds like double sharpening, unless it relates to re-sizing.
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Schewe

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Output sharpening vrs. Capture sharpending??
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2008, 04:23:54 pm »

Quote from: duraace
Ooops ...  I meant output sharpening for Screen.  Sounds like double sharpening, unless it relates to re-sizing.


Yes, the Screen is designed to address the results of downsampling from the native size to the output size for viewing on screen (video, web or other computer display uses). And yes, you still want to do the sharpening AND the Screen output sharpening for that use case.

And this whole discussion reenforces the importance of being careful who you listen to. Some "experts" are not providing full and complete and accurate information.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2008, 04:25:07 pm by Schewe »
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duraace

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Output sharpening vrs. Capture sharpending??
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2008, 05:34:53 pm »

Quote from: Schewe
Yes, the Screen is designed to address the results of downsampling from the native size to the output size for viewing on screen (video, web or other computer display uses). And yes, you still want to do the sharpening AND the Screen output sharpening for that use case.

And this whole discussion reenforces the importance of being careful who you listen to. Some "experts" are not providing full and complete and accurate information.

Thanks for the explanation. I'm clear now on capture vrs. Output and the need for it. It also emphasizes the importance of not over doing the capture stage.
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