Smart Object cropping

[teddillard]

Cropping in the Smart Object process is a little mysterious...  until I realized that the basic thing is that the Camera RAW cropping crops the Object, and cropping with the Crop Tool in Photoshop crops the canvas (that the object sits on...).  I posted an explanation of that here:
http://www.teddillard.com/2008/10/cropping-strategies.html
...but I'm interested in solutions others have come up with.  Where and when do you crop your files?

[john beardsworth]

Most people who use SOs seem to crop whenever the idea occurs, but I'd say it's primarily in Photoshop. Neither method is inherently better, and I'm not convinced they merit being dignified as "strategies". Your blog post, by the way, overlooked the Reveal command for resizing.

I'd also ask, don't you think your post, and others you've made recently, is a little self-promotional?

John

[teddillard]

Most people who use SOs seem to crop whenever the idea occurs, but I'd say it's primarily in Photoshop. Neither method is inherently better, and I'm not convinced they merit being dignified as "strategies". Your blog post, by the way, overlooked the Reveal command for resizing.

I'd also ask, don't you think your post, and others you've made recently, is a little self-promotional?

John

Thanks for that...  I'll take a look at "Reveal".  

Sorry, if I'm out of line, I'll sit back.  I have been totally immersed in the process, and have gone evangelist I'm afraid...  but I see this as THE workflow in the next few years.  It's been completely embraced by Adobe, and there's virtually nothing out there supporting it that I've been able to find.  I started the group and reference my site simply to avoid posting the same material in duplicate.

Simply thought this was appropriate to the forum, and developing this profound step in processing.  

[john beardsworth]

I'm not policing the forum (in any case, I'd start with misuse of "it's" and "loose"), and can't recall the rules, but when half of your post's vertical space is devoted to your name, site, forum, books....well, it might be worth asking oneself. You can always promote yourself en passant by answering any question with the subject you're evangelizing. Problem with cropping - the answer's smart objects. Want to go back and change the raw conversion - smart objects. Funny rash down below - smarting objects.

John

[teddillard]

I'm not policing the forum (in any case, I'd start with misuse of "it's" and "loose"), and can't recall the rules, but when half of your post's vertical space is devoted to your name, site, forum, books....well, it might be worth asking oneself. You can always promote yourself en passant by answering any question with the subject you're evangelizing. Problem with cropping - the answer's smart objects. Want to go back and change the raw conversion - smart objects. Funny rash down below - smarting objects.

John

 (in any case, I'd start with misuse of "it's" and "loose")

Like I've said before, I got me an Editor (Kara Helmkamp, bless her heart), and I'm a man who NEEDS an editor.  (But where did the "loose" come from, and I believe my use of "it's" above is correct, as a hyphenation of "it has".   )

Honestly the problem with the SO Workflow right now is it's been a "sleeper".  I don't really know why Adobe hasn't put more effort into packaging and promoting it, but if there was a discussion about it, I'd answer away.  I find myself trying to start the discussion.  I've been teaching it for a few years now, and up until this summer really didn't realize that if you go all the way with it, it's a totally self-enclosed and complete process, even inculding JPEGS and TIFF processing.  In CS2 it was certainly inelegant, but workable, CS4 it becomes elegant.

That said, I'll take another look at my sig, and edit that as well...  

[teddillard]

(in any case, I'd start with misuse of "it's" and "loose")

Like I've said before, I got me an Editor, and I'm a man who NEEDS an editor.  (But I believe my use of "it's" above is correct.   )

Honestly the problem with the SO Workflow right now is it's been a "sleeper".  I don't really know why Adobe hasn't put more effort into it, but if there was a discussion about it, I'd answer away, but I find myself trying to start the discussion.  I've been teaching it for a few years now, and up until this summer really didn't realize that if you go all the way with it, it's a totally self-enclosed and complete process.  Even inculding JPEGS and TIFF processing.  

That said, I'll take another look at my sig, and edit that as well...  

better?

[john beardsworth]

Much more subtle!

I agree that it has been a sleeper, but it's gradually been waking up with more publicity and more features. I noticed a big boost after Scott Kelby started mentioning them - prince charming sneaked into the sleeping beauty's chamber and whispered jokes in her ear. She's now wide awake and doing all she can to escape his sense of humour.

The only thing I find disappointing to is the need to swell up the tif with a copy of the raw data, rather than providing an option where it's merely there as a link which executes upon reopening the file. People will obviously break those links, but they'll either learn or are beyond tuition anyway.

John

[teddillard]

Much more subtle!

I agree that it has been a sleeper, but it's gradually been waking up with more publicity and more features. I noticed a big boost after Scott Kelby started mentioning them - prince charming sneaked into the sleeping beauty's chamber and whispered jokes in her ear. She's now wide awake and doing all she can to escape his sense of humour.

The only thing I find disappointing to is the need to swell up the tif with a copy of the raw data, rather than providing an option where it's merely there as a link which executes upon reopening the file. People will obviously break those links, but they'll either learn or are beyond tuition anyway.

John

That's what the Digital Dog referred to as "overhead", and yes, I've made 300MB files from my happy little G9 in very short order.  However, think of it in this context- that TIFF is a completely self-contained package, with not only all your edits (crops too) but also all your original RAW files (extractable) AND your XMP data.  As long as the current version of Camera RAW supports the RAW file format it's an archive file too.  (take THAT DNG).  No links or files to worry about in your storage, backup or your archive, AND workable in Lightroom.

[john beardsworth]

I do understand SOs, you know, and don't need evangelizing. At times, that self-containment is desirable, but in a well-managed workflow it's a big waste of disk space, and the more you use SOs the bigger the problem. What I call "Smart SO" or "Lean SO" TIFs would only consist of the link, other metadata, the updated preview/thumbnail, and whatever pixel and adjustment layers you may have added. If you screw up the link, that's your problem, and it's not rocket science to prompt the user to repair the link (eg Excel's had it for yonks, and InDesign has it). It should be an option.

John

[teddillard]

I do understand SOs, you know, and don't need evangelizing. At times, that self-containment is desirable, but in a well-managed workflow it's a big waste of disk space, and the more you use SOs the bigger the problem. What I call "Smart SO" or "Lean SO" TIFs would only consist of the link, other metadata, the updated preview/thumbnail, and whatever pixel and adjustment layers you may have added. If you screw up the link, that's your problem, and it's not rocket science to prompt the user to repair the link (eg Excel's had it for yonks, and InDesign has it). It should be an option.

John

I'm sure you do...  there are certainly others reading this who may not have considered that point.  I, personally find it to be a "well managed workflow" in and of itself, with no straggling files, version files totally self contained, and for all intents and purposes, making the DNG question moot.

For my process I can't see that external links would be anything but a pain it the butt...  but beyond that, since the metadata is keeping all the XMP data contained, can't see how it could be done easily.  As far as I know, there is, however, a way to export the XMP metadata, I have no idea how to apply that, though. The XMP data does reference a UID (unique object identifier, if memory serves, CS3) and IID in CS4 which references a "location" for the data, but I have no clue if this is linkable to an external file.  

Thanks for the Reveal tip, I'd never seen that...  it still begs the issue of cropping in the most sensible and consistent place, so that it does become a strategy, not just an impulse.  

[john beardsworth]

I don't agree that DNG is moot. You aren't going to make into a SO-TIF every single image that you keep, so there's a lot of space for a documented format such as DNG which can store certain rendering instructions and one or more previews which can be accessed and output by other programs.

John

[teddillard]

I don't agree that DNG is moot. You aren't going to make into a SO-TIF every single image that you keep, so there's a lot of space for a documented format such as DNG which can store certain rendering instructions and one or more previews which can be accessed and output by other programs.

John

Very true, and a great point, although at this point the rendering instructions are limited to Adobe Camera RAW, and are not accessible with other apps that I know of.  

I don't do a SO TIFF for every file I keep, though I do keep a SO TIFF for every file I process.

[john beardsworth]

The rendering instructions may not be, but the rendered previews certainly are, and by many programs. For example, I use iView/Expression Media to produce web galleries from DNGs updated by various Adobe programs. It takes a fraction of the time that it would take to generate the gallery in Bridge or Lightroom. Peter Krogh shows a 30 inch print made from this embedded preview and one made from the DNG via Photoshop, and very few people can spot the difference.

John

[teddillard]

The rendering instructions may not be, but the rendered previews certainly are, and by many programs. For example, I use iView/Expression Media to produce web galleries from DNGs updated by various Adobe programs. It takes a fraction of the time that it would take to generate the gallery in Bridge or Lightroom. Peter Krogh shows a 30 inch print made from this embedded preview and one made from the DNG via Photoshop, and very few people can spot the difference.

John

heh.   bet he wouldn't dare compare it to a print from a 6-layer Smart Object file from the same DNG.  (TOLD you I was evangelical)

[teddillard]

Most people who use SOs seem to crop whenever the idea occurs, but I'd say it's primarily in Photoshop. Neither method is inherently better, and I'm not convinced they merit being dignified as "strategies". Your blog post, by the way, overlooked the Reveal command for resizing.

John

Thanks for the "Reveal All" tip John, that was really helpful.  (...can't believe I'd never seen that!)

After messing around with it a bit, it really seems like whatever point in the process you decide to crop, the easiest way to make a backtrack-able trail of breadcrumbs is by using the Crop Tool in Photoshop after opening the file at full Canvas size. This allows you to crop pretty much whenever you like, and it also allows you to backtrack easily by simply the Image>Reveal All move, which you can also do at any point in the process.  

It seems like any other cropping "strategy" paints you into a corner pretty quickly...  one that you can get out of, but none so easily as simply that "Reveal All".  

...like so many things in Photoshop, it seems so simple now...  


Thanks again!