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Author Topic: How is c1 4PRO IQ?  (Read 6362 times)

Leonardo Barreto

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How is c1 4PRO IQ?
« on: October 22, 2008, 12:15:35 am »

I processed the same image with 3.7.9 and 4.5PRO and compared the two images and saw no difference in Image Quality. Also even the most unhappy of posters I have read talking about 4 mention that IQ is good.

But at least one experienced busy photographer has found that "C1pro 3.7.4 was far better... in terms of micro contrats, cripsness, details, noise, shadows, quality/richness of colors…"

What is your experience so far?
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tho_mas

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How is c1 4PRO IQ?
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2008, 02:34:31 am »

Quote from: Leonardo Barreto
But at least one experienced busy photographer has found that "C1pro 3.7.4 was far better... in terms of micro contrats, cripsness, details, noise, shadows, quality/richness of colors…"
What is your experience so far?
The experience is that in V3 you have to disable sharpening in the preferences (or in output) to have an image without any sharpening.
Setting the sharpening sliders to zero V3 still applies some sharpening. The opposite in V4.
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woof75

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How is c1 4PRO IQ?
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2008, 08:53:19 am »

Quote from: tho_mas
The experience is that in V3 you have to disable sharpening in the preferences (or in output) to have an image without any sharpening.
Setting the sharpening sliders to zero V3 still applies some sharpening. The opposite in V4.

I'm finding micro contrast to be better in V4, sharpness better, skin tones better. Basically when it comes to IQ, a lot better in all regards.
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tho_mas

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How is c1 4PRO IQ?
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2008, 09:24:05 am »

Quote from: woof75
I'm finding micro contrast to be better in V4
I compared V4.0 to V3.7.7 months ago... maybe they improved the algorithms in later V4 update?
But I couldn't notice an improvement in micro contrast when I compared tifs processed with film curve "linear response" and camera profile "no color correction" out of V3 and V4 and compared them on layers in Photoshop. Maybe they edited the film curves "standard" and "extra shadow"? But I'll give it a try once again...
Quote
sharpness better
the sharpening tool is much better in V4 as you can adjust more precisely (and there seems to be a "mask" for sharpening as the blacks are less agressive in V4 when sharpening is applied). But the essential detail extraction when sharpening is disabled... is the same in V3 and V4.
Quote
skin tones better
Same values set for white balance V4 gives slightly warmer results (regardless of the camera profile). May very well be that especially skins tones profit from this change.
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woof75

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How is c1 4PRO IQ?
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2008, 09:48:54 am »

Quote from: tho_mas
I compared V4.0 to V3.7.7 months ago... maybe they improved the algorithms in later V4 update?
But I couldn't notice an improvement in micro contrast when I compared tifs processed with film curve "linear response" and camera profile "no color correction" out of V3 and V4 and compared them on layers in Photoshop. Maybe they edited the film curves "standard" and "extra shadow"? But I'll give it a try once again...
 the sharpening tool is much better in V4 as you can adjust more precisely (and there seems to be a "mask" for sharpening as the blacks are less agressive in V4 when sharpening is applied). But the essential detail extraction when sharpening is disabled... is the same in V3 and V4.
 Same values set for white balance V4 gives slightly warmer results (regardless of the camera profile). May very well be that especially skins tones profit from this change.

Of course, I should have stated, I'm using a P21, maybe thats the difference in what we are seeing, I find V4.5 to be the same as 4.1 IQ wise. What camera/back are you using?
« Last Edit: October 22, 2008, 09:50:40 am by woof75 »
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tho_mas

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How is c1 4PRO IQ?
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2008, 10:04:22 am »

Quote from: woof75
What camera/back are you using?
P45
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woof75

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How is c1 4PRO IQ?
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2008, 10:14:40 am »

Quote from: tho_mas
P45

Thats so strange. It just shows how subjective this all is. Anyone else?
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tho_mas

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How is c1 4PRO IQ?
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2008, 10:26:36 am »

Quote from: woof75
Thats so strange. It just shows how subjective this all is.
Maybe it just shows how extremely well IQ in V3 already was (and in V4 still is) ;-)
I do not count very much on comments about colors (may that be skin or outdoor daylight tones) as I think it totaly depends on the settings and the camera profiles. Using e.g. V3 DB or Pro (or V4) with an on board color editor and being unhappy with certain tones... I ask "why" as it is quite easy to create profiles for a certain look. (Though I know that skins tones are by far the most difficult tones to adjust - and especially with these tones I have little experience).
Anway - if you want to compare output quality of V3 and V4 I think you should set filmcurve to "linear respeonse" and camera profile to "no color correction" ... otherwise you probably compare curves, settings, profiles... not the essential "quality".
« Last Edit: October 22, 2008, 10:27:03 am by tho_mas »
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Guy Mancuso

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How is c1 4PRO IQ?
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2008, 10:36:39 am »

Well I think 4.5 is better for sure . I always use the same profiles and such and in some beach shots I did in version 4 I had a really tough time on color balance . After loading 4.5 it was dead on, now obviously it is subjective but after doing a lot of processing of older images i did before 4.5 just seems better on detail, color and such. One thing for sure it is not worse , so I view that as a plus. It overall just seems better when it comes to image quality and that maybe subjective but I feel pretty good about the update and tethered seems faster along with processing . So as far as the program and the extra features i do like it a lot more. I am using a P25 plus back but I have images from the P30 plus and P45 plus back in the same shoot as well and they also seem better. It may have something to do with the Plus backs because there is some technology advancements there that are now supported by 4.5 . We need a Phase person to confirm that
« Last Edit: October 22, 2008, 10:39:36 am by Guy Mancuso »
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woof75

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How is c1 4PRO IQ?
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2008, 10:52:19 am »

Quote from: tho_mas
Maybe it just shows how extremely well IQ in V3 already was (and in V4 still is) ;-)
I do not count very much on comments about colors (may that be skin or outdoor daylight tones) as I think it totaly depends on the settings and the camera profiles. Using e.g. V3 DB or Pro (or V4) with an on board color editor and being unhappy with certain tones... I ask "why" as it is quite easy to create profiles for a certain look. (Though I know that skins tones are by far the most difficult tones to adjust - and especially with these tones I have little experience).
Anway - if you want to compare output quality of V3 and V4 I think you should set filmcurve to "linear respeonse" and camera profile to "no color correction" ... otherwise you probably compare curves, settings, profiles... not the essential "quality".

I don't use linear tone curves as thats not how I process my files, if there able to get more out of my files by making better tone curves and better profiles thats fine with me. I've never created custom profiles for my camera, I always hear color geeks say that they are only relevant for the exact lighting conditions that were present when making the profile so as soon as you change that then they become invalid?
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tho_mas

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How is c1 4PRO IQ?
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2008, 11:37:13 am »

Quote from: woof75
I always hear color geeks say that they are only relevant for the exact lighting conditions that were present when making the profile so as soon as you change that then they become invalid?
Nonsense (but I don't want to step in a color management debate in the MFDB forum or elsewhere here on LuLa).
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woof75

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How is c1 4PRO IQ?
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2008, 11:51:28 am »

Quote from: tho_mas
Nonsense (but I don't want to step in a color management debate in the MFDB forum or elsewhere here on LuLa).
Do you want to try and explain? It won't be much of a debate, I really know almost nothing about creating or using a camera profile though it certainly sounds interesting.
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Leonardo Barreto

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How is c1 4PRO IQ?
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2008, 12:44:56 pm »

I have a friend that has the expensive software and calibration tools and profiled my camera. I have that profile installed alongside the PhaseOne profiles and try it accordingly with the image I'm working on. There is a difference and in some cases it is the best profile. When shooting installations whit white walls the EASY GRAY profile is very useful,,

What I want to know how to use is the COLOR EDITOR.. anyone knows where to get a PDF on how to do it? the C1 4.5 User Manual does not even mention it...
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Chris Livsey

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How is c1 4PRO IQ?
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2008, 02:28:41 pm »

Quote from: Leonardo Barreto
What I want to know how to use is the COLOR EDITOR.. anyone knows where to get a PDF on how to do it? the C1 4.5 User Manual does not even mention it...

The Walter Borchenko Book (with CD) on Capture one explains, with worked examples, the colour editor. I found it helpful to say the least. This is a UK link which explains the content, no doubt you can google one locally.

http://www.teamworkphoto.com/index.php?mai...oducts_id=12703

No commercial connection- I paid full price.
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Doug Peterson

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How is c1 4PRO IQ?
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2008, 03:09:30 pm »

We offer over-the-web training. We send by FTP a packet of training/demo files, then using Leopard we can view/control your screen and using skype can talk for free. Not a sales pitch (well it is), but you should be aware that such training exists. My entire job, and my kin at various Value Added dealers, is to research/learn/problem-solve, and to work with many photographers using the hardware/software who find their own problems and solutions. For these reasons we are a very very good resource for such training.

We'll also be doing various free tutorials on the new tools in the coming weeks/months. But one-on-one training can't be beat. It's not free like the forums, but it is expert, and fast.

Walter's book was made for 3.X.  YES it is a very good read and your dealer should be able to get you one for less than list (given that its for an older version), and YES it is still somewhat relevant in 4.5 Pro (most of the concepts translate, even if the details do not). But clearly its not as good as a guide/education/training specific to 4.5. Color Editor has many great uses that few people ever touch on (JR has spoken about this at length before). Great great tool, and even better in 4 than in 3.

Doug Peterson,  Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer
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woof75

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How is c1 4PRO IQ?
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2008, 03:31:18 pm »

Quote from: dougpetersonci
We offer over-the-web training. We send by FTP a packet of training/demo files, then using Leopard we can view/control your screen and using skype can talk for free. Not a sales pitch (well it is), but you should be aware that such training exists. My entire job, and my kin at various Value Added dealers, is to research/learn/problem-solve, and to work with many photographers using the hardware/software who find their own problems and solutions. For these reasons we are a very very good resource for such training.

We'll also be doing various free tutorials on the new tools in the coming weeks/months. But one-on-one training can't be beat. It's not free like the forums, but it is expert, and fast.

Walter's book was made for 3.X.  YES it is a very good read and your dealer should be able to get you one for less than list (given that its for an older version), and YES it is still somewhat relevant in 4.5 Pro (most of the concepts translate, even if the details do not). But clearly its not as good as a guide/education/training specific to 4.5. Color Editor has many great uses that few people ever touch on (JR has spoken about this at length before). Great great tool, and even better in 4 than in 3.

Doug Peterson,  Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer
Personal Portfolio

So what does the color editor do? I can't find anything about it anywhere?
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Doug Peterson

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How is c1 4PRO IQ?
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2008, 04:19:18 pm »

Quote from: woof75
So what does the color editor do? I can't find anything about it anywhere?

Technically speaking: Color editor modifies the ICC profile used to interpret colors coming out the back. It is low in the processing stack, so it allows color correction/enhancement/modification prior to exposure/contrast/sharpening etc allowing for style-independent color modification. This leads to less artifacts in shadows/highlights and less cross-over failure and color bleed issues in enlargements.

Plain speaking: It's a flexible and fast way to modify colors while staying in the raw file. It makes the color change before anything else happens to the file so it's great quality and saves tons of time in workflow.

It can modify lightness allowing you to use it as a selective dodge/burn tool (e.g. lightening the shadow side of a blue couch while leaving the rest of it alone. It can modify hue allowing selective changes in color (push a green dress on a model more towards yellow). It can modify saturation allowing you to turn the volume up on a particular shade, or turn it down. I use that all the time to remove distracting background elements (e.g. a bright green purse) in event situations.

All of this can be applied to incoming captures as a modified-and-saved ICC profile or as a set of adjustments to the existing capture. It can be batch applied to 10 or 1000 images very quickly.

Since skin tones are almost entirely a derivative of ICC profiles, this also means you can push skin tones in any direction that you personally find "appealing". JR sometimes uses it to cool an overall image via WB and then bring skin tones back towards warm/natural via Color Editor.

Very very powerful. Few used it in 3.X because it was hidden and cumbersome. It's much easier to learn and use now; though, as I said, to get the most out of it a bit of paid instruction specific to your workflow and imagery/style wouldn't hurt :-).

Doug Peterson,  Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer
Personal Portfolio

Quick Edit: yes, you can do 99% of this in Photoshop in post, but if you learn the tool right you will save TONS of time, and be uncoupled from the style you process the file in. The same photoshop batch action will not work on an image when you change the WB and contrast. Also, yes you can do this in lightroom/aperture/etc when converting raws, but this (to my knowledge) is the only way to save your results in a cross-platform-cross-application ICC profile and is specifically tuned to the Phase One backs (though it does a fine job on other raw files too). In any case it is MORE than worth a look if you've never used it.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2008, 04:21:46 pm by dougpetersonci »
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woof75

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How is c1 4PRO IQ?
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2008, 05:07:00 pm »

Quote from: dougpetersonci
Technically speaking: Color editor modifies the ICC profile used to interpret colors coming out the back. It is low in the processing stack, so it allows color correction/enhancement/modification prior to exposure/contrast/sharpening etc allowing for style-independent color modification. This leads to less artifacts in shadows/highlights and less cross-over failure and color bleed issues in enlargements.

Plain speaking: It's a flexible and fast way to modify colors while staying in the raw file. It makes the color change before anything else happens to the file so it's great quality and saves tons of time in workflow.

It can modify lightness allowing you to use it as a selective dodge/burn tool (e.g. lightening the shadow side of a blue couch while leaving the rest of it alone. It can modify hue allowing selective changes in color (push a green dress on a model more towards yellow). It can modify saturation allowing you to turn the volume up on a particular shade, or turn it down. I use that all the time to remove distracting background elements (e.g. a bright green purse) in event situations.

All of this can be applied to incoming captures as a modified-and-saved ICC profile or as a set of adjustments to the existing capture. It can be batch applied to 10 or 1000 images very quickly.

Since skin tones are almost entirely a derivative of ICC profiles, this also means you can push skin tones in any direction that you personally find "appealing". JR sometimes uses it to cool an overall image via WB and then bring skin tones back towards warm/natural via Color Editor.

Very very powerful. Few used it in 3.X because it was hidden and cumbersome. It's much easier to learn and use now; though, as I said, to get the most out of it a bit of paid instruction specific to your workflow and imagery/style wouldn't hurt :-).

Doug Peterson,  Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer
Personal Portfolio

Quick Edit: yes, you can do 99% of this in Photoshop in post, but if you learn the tool right you will save TONS of time, and be uncoupled from the style you process the file in. The same photoshop batch action will not work on an image when you change the WB and contrast. Also, yes you can do this in lightroom/aperture/etc when converting raws, but this (to my knowledge) is the only way to save your results in a cross-platform-cross-application ICC profile and is specifically tuned to the Phase One backs (though it does a fine job on other raw files too). In any case it is MORE than worth a look if you've never used it.

How interesting. Thanks. I shall have a good look at that. This V4.5 has some nice things in and I do like the IQ I get from it, it will be a great program when they get the focus window back in.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2008, 05:07:34 pm by woof75 »
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tho_mas

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How is c1 4PRO IQ?
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2008, 07:00:49 pm »

Quote from: dougpetersonci
All of this can be applied to incoming captures as a modified-and-saved ICC profile or as a set of adjustments to the existing capture. It can be batch applied to 10 or 1000 images very quickly.
Cool thing in V4 is that color editor is now part of the tools. In V3 the color editor window has to stay opened to apply the adjustments to the image if you didn't want to safe them as a new icc profile (and afterwards load the icc profile in color management options). Now - as part of the tools - the difference between "safe as preset" and "safe as icc profile" is unmistakably clear.
Thanks for the hint that adjustements of the color editor are done prior to other adjustments (which makes sense as it works on the level of the camera icc profile). Wasn't aware of that by now. Just prefered the color editor over the selective color correction in Photoshop as it is somehow more consistent and more understandable. Feels more like a "photographic" tool as a "digital imaging" tool to me.
Anyway... the color editor is one of the very strong tools in C1.
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Bill Caulfeild-Browne

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How is c1 4PRO IQ?
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2008, 08:07:39 pm »

Quote from: woof75
it will be a great program when they get the focus window back in.

I have read a number of posts referring to this issue, which if I understand it correctly, refers to the initial preview image not being sharp. But I am puzzled because on my computers (mac 10.5.5 on a 15 inch and a 30 inch cinema display) the preview is very crisp. It does blur momentarily whenever I apply a change of any sort (white bal, exposure, saturation etc etc) but immediately clears and becomes sharp again. This is true whether I'm at full view, 10% or 100%.

Am I misunderstanding the problem or am I just lucky??? Or has it something to do with the video card?

Bill
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