Leica s2

[Nemo]

the S2 is a perfect example for the old saying: too little, too late and...too much.
peter

I cannot understand that "too little". David Farkas has explained very well the strong (an unique) points of this camera. But the real "must" of the Leica S2 are the lenses... Did you see those MTF graphs? They are just incredible. Leica means lens design and manufacture. Quite expensive, it is true, but just the best.

The software for RAW reading isn't so important because those files wouldn't need any corrections, AND the DNG specification has evolved, now allowing for corrections. With Hasselblad, for instance, you are trapped with Phocus for CA or distortion corrections, with Leica you are free. I think they will make full use of the last DNG specification.

[Christopher]

I cannot understand that "too little". David Farkas has explained very well the strong (an unique) points of this camera. But the real "must" of the Leica S2 are the lenses... Did you see those MTF graphs? They are just incredible. Leica means lens design and manufacture. Quite expensive, it is true, but just the best.

The software for RAW reading isn't so important because those files wouldn't need any corrections, AND the DNG specification has evolved, now allowing for corrections. With Hasselblad, for instance, you are trapped with Phocus for CA or distortion corrections, with Leica you are free. I think they will make full use of the last DNG specification.

Will they really ? I will believe it when I see it. I mean the strong points of the S2 are the lenses and that's about it. I'm pretty sure we won't see any high ISO mircales. You will not be able to change the back. So after 4 years you have to buy a new body for another 20k ? I am absolutly cetain that if the body itself is more than 15k than it is the death sentence for Leica. It's not that I don't Leica, I mean I love my M8 and all my Leica lenses. I just lost my trust into their digital side.

[gwhitf]

Of course, everyone loves a good spec sheet. I'm sure Leica brings that to the table. However, I simply want to see how many people will rush into line when each lens is announced with a final selling price of five to ten thousand US dollars each. Yes, people will rush to the counter to get out the baby oil and kleenex, over the MTF charts, but will they also sign their name on the check, afterwards? Will enough devoted amateurs do this to prop up a company the size of Leica, to ensure they'll be there tomorrow, to service their camera five years from now?

That is my question. Did they simply ignore the digital revolution for so long that they fell way way behind, and now, their timing is two to three years behind the times?

I also find it interesting: one of the most expensive cameras ever comes to market, and there's no interest from pros. The only interest seems to be from amateurs. What does that tell you about the track record of Leica?

[paulmoorestudio]

Of course, everyone loves a good spec sheet. I'm sure Leica brings that to the table. However, I simply want to see how many people will rush into line when each lens is announced with a final selling price of five to ten thousand US dollars each. Yes, people will rush to the counter to get out the baby oil and kleenex, over the MTF charts, but will they also sign their name on the check, afterwards? Will enough devoted amateurs do this to prop up a company the size of Leica, to ensure they'll be there tomorrow, to service their camera five years from now?

That is my question. Did they simply ignore the digital revolution for so long that they fell way way behind, and now, their timing is two to three years behind the times?

I also find it interesting: one of the most expensive cameras ever comes to market, and there's no interest from pros. The only interest seems to be from amateurs. What does that tell you about the track record of Leica?

do you really think the top 20% percent of our industry is equally represented here on this subforum?  The S2 demographics surely must be aimed at the top professionals..nowhere in their pr or marketing have I seen any desire for Leica to appeal to the populist mass of shooters, who are lucky to get 500 aday for themselves let alone a line item on their invoice for equipment.. there will be those in the mass that will want a leica but only the top tier will spring for it.. I think leica would be happy to have just a small cut of this pro upper level.. again there are more out there than here on LL..  

[Jonathan Lee]

I vote otherwise. I know this is a 'how long is a piece of string' topic but many people I know have made and exhibited M8 20 x 30 prints that have knocked our socks off. People started noticing this soon after the camera was released.

Have you tried it?

Tim

I have an M8 and a DMR but I find that 14x17 is about as large as I go with them.  I also have a CFV that I will take to 20 x30, but not the M8. What are people doing to get a fine art 20 x 30 print out of an M8 file?

Jonathan

[dfarkas]

I have an M8 and a DMR but I find that 14x17 is about as large as I go with them.  I also have a CFV that I will take to 20 x30, but not the M8. What are people doing to get a fine art 20 x 30 print out of an M8 file?

Jonathan

My workflow is this:

1) Convert DNG to 8-bit sRGB highest quality JPG (gasp) at native size (no uprezzing) in C1 or LR

2) Send to my lab printer (Durst Theta 51)

3) Admire great 20x30

Pretty simple really.    Check out iPrintsPro.com for more info.

David

[Jonathan Lee]

My workflow is this:

1) Convert DNG to 8-bit sRGB highest quality JPG (gasp) at native size (no uprezzing) in C1 or LR

David

Thanks David,  I'm really intrigued by this. Convert to JPG, WOW!

Jonathan

[bcooter]

do you really think the top 20% percent of our industry is equally represented here on this subforum?  The S2 demographics surely must be aimed at the top professionals.

Maybe not, though some of the "top 20%" reads this and other forums, they just don't participate.  That's not their style to give information, it's 180 from that.

A lot of this depends on who you call the top 20%.

I can tell you that the photographers most of the people idolize own very little if anything, especially medium format cameras.  They call the rental department or a digital tech, beat the price down as low as possible (actually their studio manager or producer does that) and then they tell someone to make this damn thing work.

If camera companies had to rely on sales for the "top 20%" the only cameras offered would be used RZ's or Pentax 6x7's  and the only retailer would be KEH and consequently I doubt very seriously if the Leica S2 is aimed at this group, because if it is they're only going to sell 4 of them.

But, photographers historically think too much about what other photographers are doing or think.  That's not their market, cause I know few photographers that hire photographers.

The day you have a paying client that ask for (heck even mentions) the Leica is the day that you start thinking about selling the BMW and the sailboat to buy one.  

Funny thing is I have a few clients that have already mentioned the RED, but until the PO is written I guess the sailboat is safe.


BC

[geesbert]

I can't understand why people keep on menitioning that they don't want to upgrade their camera bodies every three years or so, compared to the price of the back the camera costs nothing. Imagine the 1ds Mk3 sensor in a 1DS Mk1 Body, the least thing I want. Current MF bodies are pathetic, AF is on par with an EOS 500, Meter Systems are 5 years late, TTL Flash is not really available, the list goes on. I just threw away my Leaf AFI, a total piece of crap, meant to be the most evolved MF Camera available.

If I can have a great modern camera with current features with a current sensor built in for about the same money or a little bit more as a current back with an outdated camera, I know what to choose.

Michael keeps on mentioning how his p65 puts a strain on his shooting technique or his choice of tripod, but that also means, current MF cameras are inadequate. Massive mirror slap, crap AF, no Image stabilising, there is so much room for improvement, it needs to happen on the camera side. the solution can't be a slip-on magnifier for the viewfinder.

[pschefz]

mention leica and people will become emotional....

i have no doubt that the S2 will be a great camera. the lenses will be even better. shooting DNG is amazing because it makes the workflow and processing so much easier...the S2 will blow every H and mamiya out of the water...in every way....which really is not hard because they are all just retrofitted MF cameras...the S2 is not...it simply is a modern larger format digital camera made to produce ultimate quality...which i am sure it will....

i totally want one...i am sure the S2 and i could have a beautiful and fruitful relationship....

but that totally isn't the point....i want many things....i could build a pool and raise my property value (and maybe sell my house for what i bought it for....)
the fact is that there is no need for the S2 in professional photography...at all....the guy out of school with the 5DII will be able to do the same jobs...faster and cheaper, the client will not see a difference and the guy can shoot some video with his back-up body just so , because who knows....(which is what clients like btw)....bill boards and signs are more and more LCD, the only growing ad area is web, nobody has ever needed a 35mpix file for an ad....

everytime i pick up the m8 i get a warm and fuzzy feeling....i WANT to touch it....i don't even use the voigtlander lenses because the leica ones are just so much.....more...leica....i even look past ridiculous problems because of the FEEL....but i really don't use it much these days....

i never get any of this when i pick up the 5DII....but i am blown away by the files every time.....there are NO problems...AT all....cranck it to 3200....no problem....i don't even use the grip.....i love that without it it looks like a cheap consumer DSLR......but hey, even client recognize it! and they know that all is good! the last time i shot with my dsIII, the actor i was shooting asked about my gear and was disappointed that i did not have the 5Dii (because he had just shot something and all the DPs had their 5DIIs and were just raving about them...)...i thought about explaining that the dsIII was 3 times the price....and then i thought about it...

i always thought the 5D was the best camera ever made....it really gave everybody the opportunity to create professional work...no excuses...one of my assistants put it differently...the 5D really opened the sewers he said....really basically the same thing...

the 5DII has completely turned it all on its head....and the 5DIII will continue that trend....so i just don't see how anyone can justify spending that money....other then they just WANT it and have to have it, which is totally fine and good and i can relate...i buy tons of things i just WANT....i just don't try and justify it as necessary...or claim i can see the difference between DMF and DSLR on a 9x11 printed page.....that is just BS....i have 10 years of digital capture in various sizes....10mpix is a golden size up to 11x14 unless one needs to crop (and with the m8s frames that comes down to a 9x12 because there is so much cropping to be done...)....of course you can see the difference between a 20x30 from a m8 and a P45....but i would not print that size from a m8.....if i could do that i might just shoot everything with the m8 and forget about all the problems just to satisfy that leica need.....

anyway...here is another way to spend that extra money (not buying the S2)....hire a film student and a geek/blogger and have them turn you into a web celebrity....it is cheaper and will get you the jobs you want so you can easily justify the S2.....

[dseelig]

It amazes me how people are pronouncing their feelings on a camera that is not out on the market yet. It also amazes me that people wax poetically on the fimes from there camera saying how great they always are. I shoot canon all id series and both 5d cameras and leica m8 . There are situiations I find the 5d mk 11 files mush, tungsten light outdoors. when I shoot at iso 800 the m8 in tungsten light blows the canon files away. On the other hand outdoors shooting subjects in back light I prefer the 5d over the leica. the right tool for the right job. I hope the s2 is great but from charts or sensor studies I think nothing when I shoot a camera see how it feels and see the results that is what will tell me about a camera. Reading on the internet about something tells me nothing.

[ziocan]

It amazes me how people are pronouncing their feelings on a camera that is not out on the market yet. It also amazes me that people wax poetically on the fimes from there camera saying how great they always are. I shoot canon all id series and both 5d cameras and leica m8 . There are situiations I find the 5d mk 11 files mush, tungsten light outdoors. when I shoot at iso 800 the m8 in tungsten light blows the canon files away. On the other hand outdoors shooting subjects in back light I prefer the 5d over the leica. the right tool for the right job. I hope the s2 is great but from charts or sensor studies I think nothing when I shoot a camera see how it feels and see the results that is what will tell me about a camera. Reading on the internet about something tells me nothing.

So, don't read.

[Carsten W]

It amazes me how people are pronouncing their feelings on a camera that is not out on the market yet. It also amazes me that people wax poetically on the fimes from there camera saying how great they always are. I shoot canon all id series and both 5d cameras and leica m8 . There are situiations I find the 5d mk 11 files mush, tungsten light outdoors. when I shoot at iso 800 the m8 in tungsten light blows the canon files away. On the other hand outdoors shooting subjects in back light I prefer the 5d over the leica. the right tool for the right job. I hope the s2 is great but from charts or sensor studies I think nothing when I shoot a camera see how it feels and see the results that is what will tell me about a camera. Reading on the internet about something tells me nothing.

Having a bad day? I am not sure what the difference is between you not wanting to read the opinions of others, and posting your opinion for others to read?

[antonyoung]

The other thing that I don't see discussed here is leasing. I love leasing. I just got a new laptop and put it on a lease. In our professional photo lab we lease 250K Durst printing machines, as well as 6K Epsons. I lease my car. Not only can you pay over time, but there are some really great tax advantages as well (usually, the entire monthly payment is fully deductible -  talk to your accountant first). If a full S2 systems costs you $900-1000 a month, you could offset that monthly cost with jobs, client charges, or rental fees to other photographers.

What's your monthly payment on that laptop and how long is the lease?

[markowich]

your workflow tells a story about your quality requirements. peter

My workflow is this:

1) Convert DNG to 8-bit sRGB highest quality JPG (gasp) at native size (no uprezzing) in C1 or LR

2) Send to my lab printer (Durst Theta 51)

3) Admire great 20x30

Pretty simple really.    Check out iPrintsPro.com for more info.

David

[dfarkas]

What's your monthly payment on that laptop and how long is the lease?

I believe my lease is about $150/mo for 36 months, with a $1 buyout, which includes the computer, 2x 256GB SSD drives, tax, shipping, and a few pieces of software.

So I'm paying a bit more over time with interest, but I don't have to fork over > $4K today. Also, I'm using pre-tax dollars to pay for it, based on money that I create as a result of having the right "tool" for the job. And, the monthly payment amount is a full line-itme tax deduction.

David

[dfarkas]

your workflow tells a story about your quality requirements. peter

Peter,

I think if you knew me, or saw the work that I produce, you wouldn't be making insuations like this. I would happily prove to you the quality of my output for either my own files or yours.

Perhaps I over-simplified. What I didn't mention is that the Kodak pro lab software we use to RIP the files cost about $25K per year. Each printer costs $250K. Everything is completely color managed end-to-end where we can make one correction and output to different printers and/or on different papers and have an exact match. For our lab, we are printing literally thousands of images per day, color correcting each and every single one by eye. Our print technicians have decades of experience. For myself, I've been involved in digital imaging for 19 years professionally. I sat on the advisory board that created the first digital minilab printer, and worked for Kodak supporting digital imaging systems. Photography and digital imaging aren't my armchair hobby.

In my two decades of experience I have found that simple is good. I see files from photgraphers who use complicated workflows with multiple steps, using multiple programs, that ultimately yield no discernable difference in final results. Obviously, if you are using a workflow that you are comfortable and happy using, by all means, keep using it. Everyone works in different ways and that is one of the great things about photography.

David

[stevesanacore]

I'm thinking the Scarlet will turn it all sideways anyway and what we're working with today will look a hell of a lot different in a few years, (probably less)  and even if RED doesn't become the standard, it's going to make the lower (and higher) priced competitors open their eyes, pop their head out of the sand and run to the computer to design something that competes.

Then again in the world of digital cameras, maybe not.

BC

For a large portion of the market this is true. Once more clients, (and photographers), understand how these cameras work, it will become very popular to shoot this way. Personally I can't wait to get a Scarlet just for this reason.  Let's face it, for the web, (and the movie industry), we are finding out that a final image size of  2MP is all we need. If this trend continues, then all of these high end cameras will be only for fine art photographers and hobbyists, which unfortunately is probably too small a market for any company to continue to profit in.

Hope I'm wrong about the last line, but it doubt it.

[gwhitf]

If this trend continues, then all of these high end cameras will be only for fine art photographers and hobbyists, which unfortunately is probably too small a market for any company to continue to profit in.

I agree with this sentiment. Even on this forum, people lubing up, just waiting for this new Leica, at a five figure "investment", yet when they say what they're going to do with it, they say "shoot landscapes at 30x40". And since I know there aren't that many Gursky's in the world today, it just makes it hard to understand how the math works -- you're spending how much in order to sell a print for $500, if that? Makes you wonder where their real income comes from, and where that disposable income comes from, and that commercial photography is way down the line in terms of "profitable careers".

And I thought you could only use the word "investment" when you sold a product later on for MORE than you paid for it initially? So how could a P45 or A75 or Sinar back or Hy6 be an investment?

Yet, if any brand is going to defy the odds, it will be Leica. They are the world's best at making the Kool-Aid and perpetuating the hype. Each camera body ships with its own marble pedestal, to enable proper worshiping.

[Jeremy Payne]

And I thought you could only use the word "investment" when you sold a product later on for MORE than you paid for it initially? So how could a P45 or A75 or Sinar back or Hy6 be an investment?

Nah ... last year, when I realized the depreciation on my underwater photo kit was less than the loss on my portfolio of financial assets, I sold the whole thing.  Got about 70 cents on the dollar.

I was only too happy to explain to my wife that my "investment" in underwater photography had outperformed our stocks and bonds.

On a "serious" note ... the return calculation for any investment needs to consider the interim cash flows generated and not just the entry and exit ... so you can have a positive return on investment even if there is principal degradation as long as the interim cash flows are large enough to overwhelm the depreciation.  Most business investments depreciate, but the hope is that the interim cash flows are more than enough to cover the total cost on a time and risk weighted basis ...

(sorry, I'm a finance guy at heart ...)