Help needed with choice of printer

[Crying Saul]

Hi all,

I'm in the market for a pro/semipro A3 color printer. I've read possibly everything there is to read on the R2400, the B8190/B8850 and the Pixma Pro 9500, which all seem to produce excellent results. However, in user forums and user reviews I read a lot of disappointed comments about the Canon and the HP, with people saying things like "the pros go Epson and so should you". On the other hand, I gather that the Epson is good if you use it regularly, on an almost daily basis (both from a functional viewpoint as well as for reasons of ink cost). This is not what I intend to do with it.

What I'm looking for is a solution which produces quality results for someone who's not a pro but who is a bit retentive when it comes to color and detail reproduction. I do a lot of color but I'll prefer a printer which does excellent black and white and less-than-excellent color to anything else, as my black and white prints are very important to me.

I got so confused reading the dozens of reviews on the three printers mentioned above that I thought I might as well get the larger and costlier Stylus Pro 3800, just because it seems to have a perfect operating record.

I would be grateful for any advice, pointers etc.

Thanks.

[AndreG]

Hi,
I had the R2400 for a year. Excellent printer but the cost of the ink was to way to high considering they had still 20% of ink left in them. Another problem occured when I got a paper jam. You had to be patient to get it going again. Under strong lights the ink dots are bigger than the 3800 and quite apparent. Yes, I did switch to the 3800. The difference in ink costs paid for the 3800 upgrade. The color gamut is the same, the finish is much better. Yes, I did have some clogs and pizza wheel marks when I print 16 x 20. Consider the 3800 as an upgrade that is paid with the amount of ink that comes with it also you will get a professional quality print head . This said, half the ink will be used to get the printer going. Don't forget to purchase a spare ink drawer. It will fill by half during the set up process.

The Black Ink printing option (Greg Gorman's) on the 2400 and 3800 are fantastic and easy to use. The results are quite amazing. I printed some on the Epson Exhibition paper. The Pixel Genius profiles makes thing happen and so easy to succeed; there are other papers. Michael has written quite a bit on the subject.

I had personnalized profiles made from Chromix. The service is above reproch. Again, there are others...

Would I purchase another? In a heart beat. In fact, I sure would like Epson came out with a 3900 with the vivid inks and yes, bigger ink cartridges. My office space does not allow for a 7880.

I hope this will help you. Eric Chan says it all here... http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Epson3800/faq.html

[Crying Saul]

Thanks very much for the info and the very useful faq. Could you please be a bit more precise on what you mean by "getting the printer going"? Do I have to do this every time I change inks or is this just a one-time operation? Also, do you use it daily or can it handle long pauses - with shutting off and turning back on - between prints (say a week or two)?

Thanks again.

[Geoff Wittig]

Hi all,

I'm in the market for a pro/semipro A3 color printer. I've read possibly everything there is to read on the R2400, the B8190/B8850 and the Pixma Pro 9500, which all seem to produce excellent results. However, in user forums and user reviews I read a lot of disappointed comments about the Canon and the HP, with people saying things like "the pros go Epson and so should you". On the other hand, I gather that the Epson is good if you use it regularly, on an almost daily basis (both from a functional viewpoint as well as for reasons of ink cost). This is not what I intend to do with it.

What I'm looking for is a solution which produces quality results for someone who's not a pro but who is a bit retentive when it comes to color and detail reproduction. I do a lot of color but I'll prefer a printer which does excellent black and white and less-than-excellent color to anything else, as my black and white prints are very important to me.

I got so confused reading the dozens of reviews on the three printers mentioned above that I thought I might as well get the larger and costlier Stylus Pro 3800, just because it seems to have a perfect operating record.

I would be grateful for any advice, pointers etc.

Thanks.

Epson has a new replacement for the 2400 which presumably uses the newer dithering algorithm along with the 'vivid magenta' K3 inkset. Yes, it still forces you to swap matte/photo black inks, which is a nuisance, but much less so than with bigger printers. I have to think this is the one to beat. HP's printers are very solid and self-calibrate nicely; they do provide a slightly deeper d-max on matte papers than Epson. So if black & white prints on matte paper are your thing, this moves the HP's up a bit. The Epsons have a better gamut at the dark/warm portion of the spectrum.

[Ken Bennett]

Thanks very much for the info and the very useful faq. Could you please be a bit more precise on what you mean by "getting the printer going"? Do I have to do this every time I change inks or is this just a one-time operation? Also, do you use it daily or can it handle long pauses - with shutting off and turning back on - between prints (say a week or two)?

I have a 3800, and I print very infrequently. I'll go weeks without printing anything, then go downstairs and knock out a couple of 16x24 inch prints. They are perfect, every time. In a year of operation, I have had one nozzle clog, which was fixed with a single head clean. (This is amazing compared to the other printers I have used.)

When you first load the ink carts, the printer fills the ink lines, which takes a fair amount of ink (not half, though.) After the first time, this won't happen again. Also, you get to use all that ink -- it's just filling the lines.

The difference in ink costs makes the 3800 more economical in the long run, I think, plus you get to make slightly larger prints if you need them. When I had a darkroom, I rarely printed larger than 11x14. Now that I can make 16x20's any time I want them, I want a larger printer  

[John.Murray]

I'm on the IT side, a software developer.  I'm very happy with my 9180, especially printing on Hahnemuhle Photorag Pearl.  I did have an issue with the Manual / Auto tray selection somehow going completly backwards, HP promptly sent a replacement.  I also tend to print in spurts, leaving the printer idle for up to 2-3 weeks.  I like the self calibration and head replace cabilities of the HP.

One thing I've noticed is that people tend to report problems much more than success in a forum environment.  I've always found a calm, patient and respectfull attitude when dealing with tech support folks to be most productive.  HP offers online chat support - very effective.

As far as print size, if you are even tempted to *initially* go beyond 13x19", the Epson would probably be the way to go.  Then again, experimenting with papers, switching between matte and photo; Epson will force you to swap ink carts . . .

Bottom line?  Your paper and ink expenditures will quickly swamp whatever price you pay for the actual hardware.

[neil snape]

Hi all,

I'm in the market for a pro/semipro A3 color printer. I've read possibly everything there is to read on the R2400, the B8190/B8850 and the Pixma Pro 9500, which all seem to produce excellent results. However, in user forums and user reviews I read a lot of disappointed comments about the Canon and the HP, with people saying things like "the pros go Epson and so should you". On the other hand, I gather that the Epson is good if you use it regularly, on an almost daily basis (both from a functional viewpoint as well as for reasons of ink cost). This is not what I intend to do with it.

What I'm looking for is a solution which produces quality results for someone who's not a pro but who is a bit retentive when it comes to color and detail reproduction. I do a lot of color but I'll prefer a printer which does excellent black and white and less-than-excellent color to anything else, as my black and white prints are very important to me.

I got so confused reading the dozens of reviews on the three printers mentioned above that I thought I might as well get the larger and costlier Stylus Pro 3800, just because it seems to have a perfect operating record.

For the price and image quality the Epson 3800 will not be beat.
For construction build , the 3800 seems to have no serious faults either.
If there were something that is much improved but not yet eliminated by design is the black switching. I don't think for a serious print it is a problem, but if you just want to try different paper styles then switching from matte to photo black inks is too costly to experiment.

In terms of clog free printing all three brands have done well. HP have the only hardware solution with a drop detector and daily maintenance routine for which reduced nozzle output can easily be remapped to other parallel nozzles. This is nice but will cost you in the end for non use.
The HP has one of the nicest screening on matte paper, which is very neutral when printing with black inks only. On photo media though there is a cast to the B&W. The provided profiles on both Epson and HP are near perfect, so colour printing is very good without much effort at all.
Epson have always had a finer grain or pitch, and are usually slightly ahead in smoothness and detail.
The Epson 2880 is a nice little printer but does have very tiny cartridges. If you need an A3+ and need roll format, this is the only way to go. IF you want more economy and can stick with sheet feed, the 3800 is the best deal going.
I would wait until next week though to see what is announced at PPE in NYC.

[Crying Saul]

Thanks for all the replies. There's something I don't get: I thought the R2400 was the one where you actually needed to switch black inks. I read somewhere than on the 3800 you flick a switch and the printer does the switching internally (still wasting ink of course). Is this true or not?

[hsmeets]

Hi

May I throw in a few words in defence of the Canon, iPF5100 specifically, as Epson and HP is already covered  here?

First of: alle named printers are good printers, I'm not religious about the canon.

Maybe you should as others suggested look at a somewhat bigger printer, for reason of ink economics, build quality and paper handling (roll).

Some numbers from real-life/my experience:

• Here in the netherlands the Canon is fairly cheap: 1400 euro's, it's cheaper than the Epson 3800
• In comparinson to the Epson 3800 it gives you a roll feeder and no black ink swapping fuzz and no ink loss in swapping.
• I had no clogs so far, when you leave the printer always on standby it does a daily check/clean of the heads
• until now it seems to be very frugal with ink for cleaning: I have almost not printed on matte paper, as such the matte black ink level is still at the initial 60% (Red ink too) after installing the printer 243 days ago, so no signifcant/very acceptable loss of ink for cleaning. No reason for me to completely switch of the printer even if I don't use it for a week or so.
• The normal cartridges you buy are 130ml, the starter cartridges that come with the printer are 90ml and after initial filling of the inklines it says 60% available.
• The maintenance cartridge for dumping ink drops to 80% after filling the inklines and initialisation. It recently dropped to 60%
• I printed in total about 215 sqft (75% black and white, 25% color) and I'm very close to replace the first 2 cartridges (grey and lightgrey)
• The canon allows replacement of cartridges while printing, no print lost if the ink runs out while printing.
• The printer is big, bulky, heavy and neads a solid stand or table.
• Printerheads are user replaceble but imho too expensive given the price of a complete new printer with ink.....here in the NL 2 new heads cost as much as the whole printer!!! it's frankly stupid
• There is a Canon garantuee on the printerheads for, i believe, 1 yr or 2.5ltr of ink. That does not mean that this is the working life of the heads, it's only the limit of the garantuee.
• If a clog cannot be cleaned the printer remaps the nozzle until a certain percentage is remapped, then you need a new printhead.
• I suspect this is the reason that canon says to let the printer sit in standby allways so it can clean itself everyday with as far as I know very economic use of ink opposite. It's a trade off between ink usage and printerheads....
• as far as I noticed it's not particulary fuzzy about the paper you feed it, although there was one HP paper it didn't print very well on (blotchy) but maybe that relates to the fact/observation of many the HP's print best on HP media.
• it is a quite fast printer
• it produces nice output (but others too) and printing starts to become addictive (coming from the wet darkroom) and I print much more then expected.

Edit: I'm not affiliated to Canon, in none what so ever way and paid for the printer myself.

[F64photo]

Hi! My name is Gordon Brown and I teach digital photography and printing, and consult for various digital companies including Epson.  I have been using the Epson 2400 and 3800 printers for 13 x 19 prints and I love them and just started to use the 2880.
PRINTER USE AND HEAD CLOGGING:
I find that I do not have problems if I turn off the printer with the printer switch vs. the wall switch, etc. Turning the printer off by using the printer button causes the print heads to move to the home position and effectively “seals” the nozzles so that air does not does not cause the ink to dry and clog. Some of my students who live in the low humidity areas do seem to occasionally have clogging problems.  Clogging is frustrating but not permanent, but it does clear up with a head cleaning.  It is my understanding that the 2880 has a new ink repelling coating on the print head that minimizes ink clogging which is good news for those that live in low humidity environments.
B/W PRINTS
I find that the Epson Advanced Black and White mode produces some of the best B/W prints that I have ever seen, even better than prints on revered silver halide fiber-based prints.  In a previous life I helped develop B&W silver halide products and had the good fortune to spend time with Ansel Adams so B&W remains near and dear to me.   I have a rock landscape with a spider web that never showed the web in a silver halide print because the enlarger light bled over into the web strands concealing them. When I scanned the 4X5 negative with the
V-750 scanner and made a print, I saw the spider web for the first time in a print! Also, the D-Max on Exhibition Fiber paper was 2.6 compared to 2.4 which was the best anyone could get in the darkroom print.
COLOR RENDITION
Both the 2400 and the 3800 printers produce almost identical excellent color prints and I have seen no print that would prompt me to say that the color was off or that I needed more of it. That being said, the newer 2880 printer (succeeds the 2400) has a wider color gamut because of the Vivid Magenta inks while producing the same great B/W prints. I hear that B/W with the 2880 may be slightly better due to the improved screening algorithm but I need to do some testing.
3800 INKS
The 3800 printer has cartridges that hold 80 ml of ink. If you are doing a sizable number of prints its a more cost effective solution than the 2400 or 2880.  If you switch between Photo Black and Matte Black on a regular basis the 3800 is the better way to go because all inks are on board and its switches blacks vs. having to swap cartridges.
2400 LOW-INK LIGHT
I continue to use the printer after the first low-ink lights up, until it refuses to print at all. I feel that the low-ink light is just a warning that the ink has reached a low level and that it is not totally out of ink, so I keep on printing.
PAPER JAMS AND MARKS
I find that if I set the output tray to the top position so that the paper comes out of the printer level with the table and in line with the paper in the printer, that I have no marks or jams on either printer. I do have to feed the more “sticky” papers one at a time to avoid having a two-sheet feed. This is less of a problem in low humidity areas.
 

[F64photo]

Thanks for all the replies. There's something I don't get: I thought the R2400 was the one where you actually needed to switch black inks. I read somewhere than on the 3800 you flick a switch and the printer does the switching internally (still wasting ink of course). Is this true or not?

You do need to change cartridges on the 2400 printer. On the 3800, you are correct that the matte and photo cartridges are always installed. All you have to do is click on the right paper (glossy type or matte type) and the printer knows that it has to switch cartridges. However, since the cartridges are already installed, ink is already in the lines, and there is VERY LITTLE loss in ink when switching from one to another.

[Crying Saul]

hsmeets: I've read about the Canon but in France it's rather 2000 euros, which is way over budget for me (the Stylus Pro 3800 is already expensive for me but I figure I won't be buying a printer every year).

f64photo: Thanks for the detailed notes. I didn't know about the 2880 when I started this topic, so of course my choice has now been narrowed down to the 2880 vs the 3800.

The 3800 review is extremely positive and as it's the least expensive "pro" printer I think I'll go with that one.

Except, of course, if something changes in the next weeks. I'll follow neil snape's advice in this thread and wait till the end of the month and see what happens at PhotoPlus Expo.