I'm back.

[thsinar]

Thank you Sean, for the "flowers", but no matter what you are thinking or not, I won't reveal anything, and certainly not under a threatening and disrespectful tone. I stand by what I say and what I said previously, up to you to read/believe/disregard it or whatsoever. Steve's claim is as such already a good indication, speaking about Hasselblad.

FYI: I have been making many claims since nearly 2 years of my presence here: not many have proven wrong.

Now, if you would spare me from your continuous aggressive and provocative comments, I would honestly appreciate.

Best regards,
Thierry

Would you care to reveal what the margins really are just to put this to rest once and for all? It seems to me to make a claim that margins are far away from what some are thinking and yet not to reveal numbers is not to say anything much at all. In fact, I would regard this as a cop out and rather disingenuous.

[thsinar]

I don't know what you can conclude, you tell us/me, but as far as I am concerned I conclude that it is none of your business.

Best regards,
Thierry

A: Margins are not as high as you think.
Me: How high are they exactly?
A: I'm not telling.

What can I conclude from such a conversation?

[PeterA]

There has been NOTHING competitive about the MFD back market since inception.In fact it looks ( from the outside) much like many collusive oligopolies that exist around the world in specialised equipment, tools and manufacturing. The industry economics and dynamics will see much the same outcomes play themselves out as the technology matures.

All that is happening is that companies are finally being forced to accept the fact that no one has a sustainable competitive advantage which differentiates one manufacturer from the other - this position having been arrived at after all sorts of tricks to establish a differentiating point or competitive advantage all to no avail - the closed system ideas as a barrier to exit is the final desperate straw.

So you have each manufacturer with their own version of a closed system but also making versions of backs able to be used on some versions of other manufacturers still open systems ( this is very funny )
Hasselblad has ended up being despised by its traditional user group for changing the rules of engagement pretty much every year - with its OWN client base ( our clients are our worst enemies ) !!! Sinar and Leaf now have a new body but share the same body and lenses and are looking at each other and wondering why  they don't merge today instead of waiting for another couple of years (     very funny) and then you have Phase One with Mamiya - well the body works and it has a large established user base so why not?  

If companies cant compete by point of differentiation then we are witnessing the commodification of the industry. In technical terms this will mean that the lowest cost producer(s) will win. The only way to be the lowest cost producer is to sell more and lower your costs of production, so you can afford the lower prices to deliver price value to your buyer...but if everyone tries the same strategy then everyone loses. ( another funny outcome ).

There is only one certainty - prices will come down and all companies futures are in the balance. The competitive landscape is changing fast and the significance of Leica's S2 is very high - it signals that the digi chip technology game is maturing - and ..umm this means that CaNikon can choose to play if they like as well - especially if the MFD makers drop their prices low enough to make DSLR users consider the move up..this would drag CaNikon up to MFDish with them.

So I dont know you Steve - but I hear good things from people whose opinions I trust - I am guessing that you figure Hasselblad may not be the place to be anymore - actions always speak louder than words! - All you have to do now is explain to Phase that they too will have to drop prices. the quicker the companies do this the quicker people will be able to start buying- oh unless a little factor like a global recession gets in the way.

Oh one final aside from a proudly NON PRO user - they probably don't know it yet ( maybe Leica suspects it) but the real owners of this market are the glass makers NOT the chip makers - and this will be the next big industry change. The MFD manufacturers can join with body makers - and drive down costs here - in the end the GLASS makers will hold the keys to profitability - as they rightly should ( what a romantic I am )  

Just the views of a Hedge Fund - who wouldn't put a dollar of his client's money in this industry - just yet.  
Pete

[James R Russell]

It doesn't really matter to me if any camera company sells though a value added dealer, direct, or through traditional camera stores.  It's a world market and in most cases a free market so that is all of the companies private decision to do business the way they see fit.

I and others are just tossing thoughts out there to see if there is a way to lower costs.  For me, value added doesn't add that much, for others it is a wise decision.  To each his own.

Still I wonder.  For all the people that defend the higher prices of the non Hasselblad products I'd be curious to know how many of them would not jump at a 5, or 10 thousand dollar discount on their next Phase, Leaf or Sinar back purchase.

Steve, there is nothing wrong with changing your mind or changing your position, I do it all the time, because situtations change, but as I am sure you remember, you felt in the past it was good that other makers were offering lower prices to get customers more involved with medium format.

I don't see much difference between the previous announcement about Leaf, from Hasselblad's recent price cuts.

______________________________



 It is now official - Leaf is promoting the Aptus 65 now through July 31, 2008 for $13,995. As some remember, I had posted this earlier in the month, but had to pull it back as Leaf was not quite as ready to go as they thought. But it's now official.

What is behind it is hard to say - an answer to Hasselblad? A response to 35mm digital? Benevolence? Open for discussion. But one thing is for sure - it's a benefit to end users who are starting to see more affordable alternatives to 35mm than had previously been available.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php

________________________________________

[samuel_js]

I think Phase One does have offices in NY. But why bother flying somewhere when they can ship right to your studio and try it on your own system. Real question is are we paying more for dealer support or are we not. The price when you buy does not say anything of that sort. We can buy a P30 plus with body and lens for almost the same money as we could buy a Hassy /31 system at Camera West. A good friend paid 32k for a Hassy system at Camera West and can we not get a P45 for somewhat the same setup and price, okay price has changed since than on the Hassy. Phase one has yet to respond to it that's all but neither has anyone else. Yes the P65 is expensive be it we need it or not is a personal decision. It will also sell to what the market will bear. I won't be buying it but others will. You also cannot compare a 3500 hundred camera to a 30k MF system in terms of marketing and sales. Everybody's brother in law will buy the 5d regardless of who is promoting it , there is no real money involved. I honestly don't know how you can compare the wide spread use of the Nikons and canons to a much smaller more expensive MF system in terms of service, support and pricing. They just do not compare in my view on any level. I don't know where this i don't trust Phase comes from. They are dependent on Mamiya's times schedule on delivering lenses. Mamiya screws up we blame Phase. Oh well different points of view but i like the dealer support. Never had it with any 35mm and it makes my life easier now. Just call in what i need and get it.

Guy, I few months ago, I wrote this post at your site (getDpi). Then I was recommended to wait until photokina to see the announcements and wait for the prices to drop a bit.

Last week the price for a p25+ here was $14000. I was offered to pay $12500 to upgrade my P20 to a P25+. (NOTE: they give me $1500 for my P20).
Three days later they raised the price of the P25+ from $14000 to $16500 (that's the actual price here for both the P25 and P30 +).

I wrote an email to my dealer, he said he would pass the email to phaseone and since then I've heard nothing from them, but seen the P25+ become $2500 more expensive.

So I know very well where this "don't trust phase one" comes from.

/Samuel

[Guy Mancuso]

Well if you have a dealer that will not work for you than do get another dealer, obviously he has not followed through for you. Now Hassy did lower there price by 10k on there 39mpx system others like Sinar , leaf and Phase have yet to respond to it or are not going to respond to it. This obviously would be answered by Steve but maybe there was a actually price increase not sure. Our dollar sucks compared to the Euro we honestly have no control on Global economics and three months ago the world was fairly happy . Today completely a different landscape and many companies have adjusted to the dollar vs euro issue. I would suspect this is the case and something you can not predict. Waiting for Photokinia was something almost everyone did to see what new product maybe coming and if it is better than what currently is on the market. The leica S2 was announced for one and some folks may just take a easy seat and wait for it and skip there purchase now. But everyone did announce new products in the MF industry at least to some degree, some more than others. Sinar, Phase and leaf all announced new backs as well as Hassy.

[Kumar]

Well if you have a dealer that will not work for you than do get another dealer, obviously he has not followed through for you.

Sometimes that's not an option. Many countries have only one distributor/dealer. Some have none.

Kumar

[Guy Mancuso]

Than you have to beat on him and tell them you want service. That is what there for and worst case report them to the mother ship. I'm sure all the MF companies want to know about this kind of stuff so they can do something about it. Remember you are the customer and your always right , well at least that is the theory. LOL

[Gigi]

A: Margins are not as high as you think.
Me: How high are they exactly?
A: I'm not telling.

What can I conclude from such a conversation?

He's right -
NOYB.

Geoffrey

[SeanBK]

It doesn't really matter to me if any camera company sells though a value added dealer, direct, or through traditional camera stores.  It's a world market and in most cases a free market so that is all of the companies private decision to do business the way they see fit.

I and others are just tossing thoughts out there to see if there is a way to lower costs.  For me, value added doesn't add that much, for others it is a wise decision.  To each his own.

Still I wonder.  For all the people that defend the higher prices of the non Hasselblad products I'd be curious to know how many of them would not jump at a 5, or 10 thousand dollar discount on their next Phase, Leaf or Sinar back purchase.

Steve, there is nothing wrong with changing your mind or changing your position, I do it all the time, because situtations change, but as I am sure you remember, you felt in the past it was good that other makers were offering lower prices to get customers more involved with medium format.

I don't see much difference between the previous announcement about Leaf, from Hasselblad's recent price cuts.

______________________________



 It is now official - Leaf is promoting the Aptus 65 now through July 31, 2008 for $13,995. As some remember, I had posted this earlier in the month, but had to pull it back as Leaf was not quite as ready to go as they thought. But it's now official.

What is behind it is hard to say - an answer to Hasselblad? A response to 35mm digital? Benevolence? Open for discussion. But one thing is for sure - it's a benefit to end users who are starting to see more affordable alternatives to 35mm than had previously been available.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php

________________________________________

This is definately NOT comparing apples to apples. Hasselblad H3DII-31 (their current model) is for $17995, while Leaf is lowering price of OLDER model Aptus 65 & not Aptus 65S, which is their current model. So for Phase One & Leaf to do the same as Hasselblad, they need to drop their prices of their "+ series & S series" & not previous or older series, albeit whether it is discontinued or not.

[David Grover / Capture One]

Welcome to Steve as well.

[Steve Hendrix]

Steve, there is nothing wrong with changing your mind or changing your position, I do it all the time, because situtations change, but as I am sure you remember, you felt in the past it was good that other makers were offering lower prices to get customers more involved with medium format.

I don't see much difference between the previous announcement about Leaf, from Hasselblad's recent price cuts.

______________________________



 It is now official - Leaf is promoting the Aptus 65 now through July 31, 2008 for $13,995. As some remember, I had posted this earlier in the month, but had to pull it back as Leaf was not quite as ready to go as they thought. But it's now official.

What is behind it is hard to say - an answer to Hasselblad? A response to 35mm digital? Benevolence? Open for discussion. But one thing is for sure - it's a benefit to end users who are starting to see more affordable alternatives to 35mm than had previously been available.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php

________________________________________

I don't have any problem with lower prices. As you point out, I'm all for them as long as they help to provide a sustainable business for the company lowering them.

Steve Hendrix
Phase One

[Steve Hendrix]

This is definately NOT comparing apples to apples. Hasselblad H3DII-31 (their current model) is for $17995, while Leaf is lowering price of OLDER model Aptus 65 & not Aptus 65S, which is their current model. So for Phase One & Leaf to do the same as Hasselblad, they need to drop their prices of their "+ series & S series" & not previous or older series, albeit whether it is discontinued or not.

As of September 22, 2008 Phase One USA reduced the pricing on our P25+ and P30+ digital backs and camera bundles by $2,000. We will continue to evaluate effective pricing as we go forward.


Steve Hendrix
Phase One

[Carsten W]

Last week the price for a p25+ here was $14000. I was offered to pay $12500 to upgrade my P20 to a P25+. (NOTE: they give me $2500 for my P20). Three days later they raised the price of the P25+ from $14000 to $16500 (that's the actual price here for both the P25 and P30 +).

I don't quite understand the math here. 14000-12500 = 1500, not 2500. Did you mean $1500, or is there something else going on here which I missed.

I wonder if the Phase prices are responding to currency fluctuations? Their costs are in Danish Kroner, so if the Dollar moves relative to the Danish Krone, then a price shift is logical, if they are not to lose money.

Steve, can you confirm why the price was changed?

[Steve Hendrix]

I don't quite understand the math here. 14000-12500 = 1500, not 2500. Did you mean $1500, or is there something else going on here which I missed.

I wonder if the Phase prices are responding to currency fluctuations? Their costs are in Danish Kroner, so if the Dollar moves relative to the Danish Krone, then a price shift is logical, if they are not to lose money.

Steve, can you confirm why the price was changed?

I don't know anything about pricing in other countries. It seems strange that there would be an increase, and if this is so, I would think it would have to be tied to some type of currency exchange. All I know in the USA is that pricing was reduced, not the other way around.

Steve Hendrix
Phase One

[Carsten W]

I don't know anything about pricing in other countries. It seems strange that there would be an increase, and if this is so, I would think it would have to be tied to some type of currency exchange. All I know in the USA is that pricing was reduced, not the other way around.

Ah, I just noticed that the OP lives in Sweden. I think that the Danish Krone is locked to the Euro, but I don't know about the Swedish Krone?

[SeanBK]

I don't know anything about pricing in other countries. It seems strange that there would be an increase, and if this is so, I would think it would have to be tied to some type of currency exchange. All I know in the USA is that pricing was reduced, not the other way around.

Steve Hendrix
Phase One

 Steve, with all due respect to you & Phase One. You posted TWICE that the price HAS been reduced by $2000 or whatever, but all anyone would want to know would be, what is the price of Phase One + backs currently are. Kinda like what Hasselblad does, see
   http://www.hasselbladusa.com/promotions/31-39-promotion.aspx
  While at
   http://phaseone.com/
     Nor reading your posts I can't find what + backs cost will be for H series camera? If you guys are in business of SELLING something, than shouldn't the price be posted? e.g LandRover, Mercedes, BMW....
          As they say in a very old TV show - "Just the facts, 'mam."

[TMARK]

Ah, I just noticed that the OP lives in Sweden. I think that the Danish Krone is locked to the Euro, but I don't know about the Swedish Krone?

There are no more Scandinavian Krone, except of course for our Norwegian friends who have elected not to join the EU.  Thus Phase and Blad and Sinar and Leaf (at least to an extent, in as much as the Isreali currency is tied to the Euro, at least in theory) have all of their costs denominated in the Euro.

If these companies were half way serious about BUSINESS and MAKING MONEY, they would, assuming they sell a large percentage of their production outside of Euroland, hedge for currency swings.  Every large exporter hedges against currency fluctuations such that large swings in a currency, as has occured in the US Dollar (going down) and the Euro (going up), do not threaten price stability.  If price is being affected by currency swings, someone was asleep at the switch, or the hedges expired and were not renewed, but in that case, they should have planned farther into the future.

Blad may be able to lower their prices, perhaps because they hedged correctly and are in a position to lower prices to take advantage of the margin they bought themselves with their hedge.

[samuel_js]

I don't quite understand the math here. 14000-12500 = 1500, not 2500. Did you mean $1500, or is there something else going on here which I missed.

I wonder if the Phase prices are responding to currency fluctuations? Their costs are in Danish Kroner, so if the Dollar moves relative to the Danish Krone, then a price shift is logical, if they are not to lose money.

Steve, can you confirm why the price was changed?

Hi, yes I mean $1500. I just edited my original post.
Thanks

/Samuel

[samuel_js]

Steve, with all due respect to you & Phase One. You posted TWICE that the price HAS been reduced by $2000 or whatever, but all anyone would want to know would be, what is the price of Phase One + backs currently are. Kinda like what Hasselblad does, see
   http://www.hasselbladusa.com/promotions/31-39-promotion.aspx
  While at
   http://phaseone.com/
     Nor reading your posts I can't find what + backs cost will be for H series camera? If you guys are in business of SELLING something, than shouldn't the price be posted? e.g LandRover, Mercedes, BMW....
          As they say in a very old TV show - "Just the facts, 'mam."

These are the prices in $ from my swedish dealer today (prices updated October 1):



Value added between $4000-$5500.

/Samuel